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Funnywhatyouforget
I like many of you can only too clearly recollect the joy at having been offered my first flying job with Flybe, and I have to say that that joy has stayed (apart from the odd hiccup!) with me throughout my time with them. No they don't pay the best (but who else has been offered a pay rise this year), no they don't have the best T & C's (they are trying to improve these in a very difficult financial period) but in a fairly short time I have flown both types, gained my command and had fantastic fun with a tremendous group of people...I don't believe I could have done that with any other airline in the UK. Now its time to move on, but not with any bad feeling towards what I consider to be as well managed, ambitious and employee orientated airline in not just the UK, but the World. I fully anticipate the deluge of clever, witty put downs to this view which will no doubt follow....but try and recollect your own joy at the initial offer of a job with Flybe and consider if you have achieved what you expected to....I think most of you will have. The grass is always greener (except in some parts of the World!) etc., and if you can't settle for that then move on and find out for yourself!
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It never ceases to amaze me what a dumb lot pilots are for a supposedly intelligent bunch of people.
When those of us who were in BA (Dis!)Connect saw Jim French marching over the horizon with his scarce concealed contempt for pilots and indeed Balpa and any form of collective negotiation mechanism those of us who could...got the hell out. It seems were were right... I have never looked back and in a perverse way I guess I am grateful to the bearded one for needling me out of my comfort zone. The same is true of all my former colleagues who ran as far and fast as they could and in most cases are infinitely better off than had we stayed at Flybe. It is quite obvious from the posters in this forum that nothing has changed and that the efficient Flybe mechanism is extracting the very last ounce of flesh from its pathetically compliant workforce and giving bare minimum in return. The answer is very simple .......as indeed it always has been. Support your company council, elect articulate representatives and understand that collectively through a strongly supported council within Balpa you can make a bad airline (to work for ) a good one. Otherwise nothing will change. |
People's views on working for Flybe appear very polarised depending on their personal circumstances. I left the RAF just before the downturn and had the hours and relevant experience to apply for almost any airline; I chose Flybe as the location, work patterns and type of flying suited me. I have not been disappointed and hope to be here for 25 more years. The company appear to wish to give us the best T & Cs the business model will allow; however, our BALPA CC seem unwilling to enter into meaningful and realistic negotiations and are hampering any improvements. Think I might just give myself a pay rise and cancel my membership!:ok:
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Drum Machine if I may say so that attitude absolutely typifies my dumb pilot observation........
You dont think much of Balpa........ who can only be as effective as your pretty ineffective company council so you just bottle out and award yourself a paltry pay rise of one percent by cancelling your subscription. Would not the more intelligent option be to actualy get involved, put yourself forward for election and kick out the wets who seemed to have achieved nothing apart from acceding to every whim of Jimbo??? That way you and doubtless countless others who feel the same as you might just achieve rather more than a one off one percent and make Flybe somwhere people might actualy like to work instead of being compliant yessmen......... Collectively you can all do something about it..............but frankly with attitudes like that I doubt if you will. |
The company appear to wish to give us the best T & Cs the business model will allow Drum machine we all choose who's propaganda to believe, and you have every right to believe the Company's line on Balpa being the stubborn obstacle to the company's benevolence. I don't, and neither do most people I fly with. Interesting times ahead. |
Drum Machine if I may say so that attitude absolutely typifies my dumb pilot observation........ |
And your's the left-wing thinking that has left our nation in such a mess. Now perhaps we can stop making personal remarks and respect the fact that others have a different opinion. It is you who are 'left wing' because you are a happy to sit there and be told what the deal is! I am also ex RAF and left before the downturn in the early 1990's. One thing I learned very quickly in the civvy world is that if you don't stick up for yourself then the company will take advantage of you. Over the years the airline pilots salary failed to keep up with RPI and. as a result, the profession has been downgraded to little more than that of a London Tube Driver - starting salary is just over £40,000 - and that is purely because pilots are too thick to realise that collective action works! The only way to keep T&C's in line with other jobs is to join the union and adopt a common cause. |
Some facts
Some facts about Flybe,
It's owned by the 101st richest family in the land, who stand to gain in excess of a further £400 million when it is listed. It is run by an extremely wealthy and bright Scotsman whose 8% stake in the company will be worth in excess of £50 million when it lists. His salary of £400 000 plus bonus and Audi A8 means he will have been paid many multiples of the sums earned by the CEO'S of Lufthansa, BA and other global airlines over the same period. This huge wealth has been generated by crews who are worked currently to within inches of the law on the worst roster pattern and wages in the industry. Captains are paid in line with train drivers, FO's are paid bus driver wages, the aircraft are amongst the most efficient on fuel in the world. The airline has expanded relentlessly on the back of its hard pressed workforce and continues to do so. The pay freeze last year and 0.6% pay rise offered this year attest to the fact that the huge profits being earned are not intended to be used to improve the lot of the workers who have taken Flybe into the big league. Ask yourself why when the market was last buoyant they were losing almost 10% of their pilots every month and the CAA was becoming concerned about experience levels amongst crews. The terms and conditions are rock bottom and a better deal can be had almost anywhere else. The management must act now if they are to prevent the biggest exodus the company has ever faced coinciding with their big move into jets and Europe. You can't order $5 billion aeroplanes and then turn around and tell workers there's nothing in the pot without a backlash. Flybe despite its friendly face is a ruthless juggernaut, every bit as hard nosed as Ryanair and Easyjet. The majority are suddenly waking up to this and their support is moving behind BALPA to address these issues with management before an unparalleled exodus begins. Desk-pilot |
Year 4 f/o here, and I earn less than the guy who fuels the a/c!!!
The company refuses point blank to improve any scheduling or pay conditions. The list of possible improvements to put us on par with other airlines are too numerous to mention, but here we languish at the bottom of the pile!! The management say we are a training airline for other jet carriers, don't care if hundreds leave and say if it costs a penny then you can't have it!! BALPA seem to do bugger all about it!! They fight for BA perks and pay, even got easyjet a 5-7% pay rise across various levels!! Flybe crews wait, junior f/o's and senior captains have all stated that they can't take any more and will leave as soon as options are available! Will Flybe crews grow a spine and stand up for fair conditions or just wither away to other carriers!! |
Serenity that's the same BALPA who screwed over new joiner F/Os to pay the masses a hefty pay rise last time.
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Serenity, Coffin Corner, Desk Pilot... All spot on.
People will leave, maybe the majority don't feel the need to fight for anything that the management will drag its heels over and ultimately fail to deliver. Why bother? The slightest sniff of pastures new and they'll be gone. It sounds selfish, but thats life (and the management certainly wouldn't give a toss). If this is the way the company wants to conduct its business then let them do it. And as for the Training Academy being able to cope, will it? It only takes a few airlines to open the recruitment flood gates and it wouldn't be unreasonable to forecast up to 100 (at least) 3 month notices ending up on a desk in EXT. If that happens before the Academy is opened (or even after for that matter) then cope they will not... |
due to their recent orders (30 777's and 50 A380's) Emirates need 500 FO's a year for the next 2-3 years. There will be a mass exodus from Ryanair, Easyjet, bmi, bmibaby and Jet2. Qatar and Etihad will follow suit to compete. The amount of pilots leaving to measure their penis by the size of aircraft they drive, and of course the delightful 46 degree celcius climate, will be phenonamal. the "seat blockers" will be scampering off to the sandpit. Ryanair will suffer, but easy, bmi and bmibay and maybe jet2 not as much cos they are good airlines to work for. but my point is lots of jet jobs. you guys leave and then flybe recruit from the schools and probably make money doing it. and then we have a boom. then in ten years it all goes tits up. then a fiscal stimulus or 2 later then recovery and wham....you can stop moaning about pesky jet flying too early and too late for 70 grand and move onto widebodies and start moaning about 100 grand. and then you retire and truly understand gardening. this industry is up and down and back up again then down..........
anyway...you guys get crew food at flybe....you lucky %£^"&*£*'s |
mateyboy
Now what exactly is your definition of crew food? If your definition is inedible crap then yes we get crew food. |
@ Dumb Machine.
This is not about politics, this is about business... The company actually enjoys a pretty good financial health but has no consideration to its workforce and claims poverty and all the rest the it...in fact just blatantly taking the mick. Shareholders are equally important to the success of any business as workers. Each side must get its fair share...otherwise...it doesn't work. |
If you think Flybe have the worst terms and conditions in the industry for regional or turbo-prop FOs someone needs to wake up and smell the coffee. If your not happy with the conditions at Flybe then maybe Air SouthWest or Eastern would be better for you...No?
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Personally, I can't wait for the exodus if it gets rid of the continuous whining. Flybe Ts&Cs aren't a government secret, nobody was ever forced to come here, nor was anyone forced to stay. Yet here we have a whole bunch of long-serving whingers, who no doubt have been whinging about the same things ever since they started, but still haven't voted with their feet. Grow a pair as big as your mouths and do one please, then the rest of us can work in peace.
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Big Reality Check Required For Some...
Or maybe someone who's worked elsewhere and what FlyBe has to offer works for him/her?!?
If all of the guys moaning on here about FlyBe's T&C's are on their first job, which I know some are, then you are not qualified to moan. What exactly were you expecting? It's a starter airline, Mr French knows exactly what the score is as does the owner of Loganair when I started, there are 1000's of guys and gals waiting in the wings (pardon the pun) to take your seat if you don't want it! They've given you your first run on the ladder, some excellent time in your logbook on a good type and a stable job through a serious industry downturn - now if you want some good T&C's, move onto the jets, just as Mr French is expecting you to do (more than likely, as per his business model) and just like we all have done before you, we were all where you are now - get a couple of thousand hours of jet time under your belt, then compare your lifestyle or whatever is important to you...and then you are qualified to moan! And those that think the CAA are worried about FlyBe's experience levels are those that have just hit the big ego stage about having a few years on a turbo-prop! If it keeps FlyBe flying - the CAA will back them 100% for protecting it's business...their Ops Inspector had to start somewhere too!!! Right, the all you can eat buffet is about to kick off - where's my Alan Partridge 9" plate... Cheers JB |
And I suppose those who have never worked for Flybe are not qualified to comment/moan either, have you ever worked for Flybe JB007? :=
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comparing Flybe to eastern or Air Southwest is utterly irrelevant and fondamentaly wrong...
Without any disrespect towards their employees, flight deck, cabin or ground, these businesses have very little in common. They are not of the same scale, don't meet the same success and don't share the same ambitions. How many of the guys saying juniors have no right to complain sit high up the seniority list with comfortable salaries if not RAF/Navy/Legacy carrier pensions if not a combination of. I have worked in the aerospace industry before flying, and the same old management tactics are at work..again...again and again... Management is laughing when they look at our divided group of workers...this is simply appaulling. Before growing some teeth, pilots should grow a little bit of a brain and a sense of community and common interest. |
JB007, as you should probably realise, the situation is not as black and white a picture as you envisage. Whilst Flybe has historically been an airline for those at the extremes of their careers, it has had an opportunity to correct this, and with a fleet potential in excess of 140 airframes within the next few years, it will be pretty big. No longer an airline along the lines of one normally associated with the extremes of one's career, i.e. not in the ASW or Eastern league. At the moment there are in excess of 700 pilots on the seniority list. That will get bigger. Pay, Scheduling & Pensions are the three major issues at the moment, and with not terribly much effort, a compromise could be found. However, there is no interest from the management at all. The company has grown well under the leadership of a good management team, but also with the hard work of a workforce that, I think is fair to say, have all really bought into the plans that French and the board have laid out. We have won numerous awards, we have been innovative and flexible w.r.t to the severe winters & ash, operating where other airlines have cancelled. Of course this is what we signed up to, but the continuing examples of so many crew going above and beyond are part of the Flybe way. Put the above into the context of constant great sentiment from the company but, ultimately, virtually zero action towards our betterment in several years, and folk are getting fairly hacked off. Particularly when a 2% payrise offered, actually equates to only 0.3% (and especially after making good profits during a payfreeze), and a 50:50 pension offer transpires for some to be a 70:30 in favour of the company. Negotiation with the union is almost nil and then the info provided from HQ is spun and simplified so that the above appears to be a great deal, when it clearly is not with the revelation of a few more facts omitted in several communique. Flybe isn't my first airline and at this rate it won't be my last, but that is irrelevant. Many people would like to stay and make a career, regardless of their backgrounds and with a little flexibility from above, it is very possible. With no movement on pay and conditions, many other airlines are much more attractive to so many at Flybe. We need to fix these growing pains. |
. . . the guys moaning on here about FlyBe's T&C's are on their first job, which I know some are, then you are not qualified to moan. |
If all of the guys moaning on here about FlyBe's T&C's are on their first job, which I know some are, then you are not qualified to moan. Some questions I will ask to the experienced pilots of many years: During the steady erosion of T&Cs over the past decade did you moan? When airlines started demanding that people pay for type ratings did you moan? When pay to fly started and the right hand seat became the most lucrative on the aircraft did you moan? When airlines started classifying employees as contractors only to get around employment laws did you moan? I suppose the above attitude was the one that prevailed during the last pay deal at flybe when the starting salary of FOs was cut in order to increase the other pay scales. Divide et impera. |
Funny I thought we all had ATPLs and we were a known quantity and expect to be paid for the license that we hold. If you fly for any of the regional operators flying a turbo-prop, you compare what the term and conditions are with each company. A companies business model is irrelevent, I expect to be re-imbursed to an acceptable level, no matter whether I fly oil riggers, newspapers, rock bands, pop groups and premiership football teams or that scratch cards are sold in the cabin. Using 5 rings method to work out who is a real airline, then Flybe have got it good as they are the lowcost operator and it is then Flybe should earn less than the other carriers, but thats not the way the world works.
If its aircraft type thats the issue then Air Southwests dash8-2s are flown by Wideroe and they earn a princely sum, for an "old" turbo-prop. If its about flying an advanced turbo-prop then your sadly mistaken if a dash8-400 is the most advanced civil turbo-prop out there. To a company a turbo-prop is a turbo-prop end of, your no better trained, qualified or more deserving than any other turbo-prop pilot for a pay rise, we all deserve one. 5rings ones head needs to be pulled from ones arse, if you think other turbo-prop operators somehow dont qualify for comparison by Flybe management. You fly a turbo-prop no matter how embarrasing that may be for you. No matter how much you close your eyes you dont fly a 737 or an a320, if you think you can compare wages with operators operating these aircraft types. Sorry that may sound harsh but you had that coming. |
The E170/195
Guys, nobody is ungrateful to Flybe for giving people the chance to achieve this career, providing a bonded type rating and some excellent experience. Neither is anyone suggesting that a turboprop pilot should expect to earn as much as a jet pilot (even if many might argue that a turboprop can be harder to fly). However there are two different issues here:
1. Flybe is moving away from its provincial turboprop roots and becoming a significant pan-European jet operator and major player in the industry. Its pilots fully support the company's lofty ambitions but don't appreciate being taken for fools with a pay freeze last yr, a 0.3% pay rise this year and a complete lack of engagement in BALPA's attempts to improve quality of life here. 2. Having ordered a huge pile of jets the company is now trying to combine the jet and turboprop salaries at the turboprop rate in order to avoid having too many people on the jet scales (which incidentally are low compared to others out there anyway). I would argue that a 195 pilot deserves to be paid the same as an Airbus 319 pilot in Easy but they are about £15k less than that. This company is becoming a force to be reckoned with - that's for sure, but the their obsession with rostering for maximum working days and ignorance of pay norms is causing many to look elsewhere, and that is rather sad. Desk-pilot |
Desk Pilot,
Couldn't agree more....:ok: |
PaulW,
Flybe has successfully navigated trough the financial storm asking its workforce to take a pay freeze, requested for volunteers for overseas contracts etc. The business is profitable unlike many competitors included jet ones. The workforce has played its role in this success and must now be rewarded. I don't have any chip on my shoulder flying a TP simply because it's more hard work than a jet and you get to handfly it more and more often. Finally Flybe shifts more passenger on the British domestic market. This leadership has to reflect on the payscale. |
Desk Pilot, excellent points. I wish you guys all the best...especially considering what i've just paid to fly LGW-IOM!
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Striking at FlyBe will produce nothing. It is painful to say "I told you so.........." but those of us who got the hell out saw all this coming. One look at the nature of the CEO was all it took to convince me. You will never be able to successfully agitate for change because too many of your colleagues....for whatever reason.... are a spineless bunch who are content to accept mediocrity, short term gain and exploitation as an acceptable lifestyle. I well remember when Flybe and BA Connect merged there was then an opportunity to insist that a proper scheduling agreement be carried into the new combined operation as well as a number of other essential safegaurds. A one off £3000 bribe was all it took to secure compliance.................and arent you all paying the price now? As the man says.....those of you who can...get out. TT |
Royston, know exactly what you mean, exeter regional thinking hopes we will do it all for the love of it, Flybe are light years behind other airlines currently!!
Like the sound of your planet!! |
Royston,
FOUR sectors a day??! HAVING to chase up fuel??! COLD flightdeck??! I amazed it hasn't hit the front page of the daily mail: "Passengers terror as Biggles forced to find fuel to fly in winter" bless. |
. A one off £3000 agreement be carried into the new combined operation as well as a number of other essen. A one off £3000 bribe was all it took to secure compliance.................and arent you all paying the price now? |
I think you will find the £3000 was deposited into bank accounts without knowledge! Then a nice letter was received saying you have received a payment to compensate you for your reduction in terms and conditions. We had no choice! All but those who were leaving would gladly have handed the money back and kept are terms and conditions!
But a typical example of effective divide and conquer! Come on guys stick together and lets work towards making Flybe an airline people aspire to join! It surely makes sense for both employer and employee to both be happy?????? |
A cynical observer might suggest that a high turnover of FOs in particular, rather suits Flybe management. New FOs are cheaper than experienced ones, they are bonded, and are more likely to accept whatever Ts & Cs are thrown at them. If experienced people leave as soon as there are jobs elsewhere, big deal, they can be replaced easily and cheaply. Witness the steady stream of cadets, both internal and TCX, and moving the sims to the new training centre at EXT. It all points to an operation designed to train up lots of people, and quickly.
Frankly, I can't see any incentive whatsoever for the company to improve pay and rostering, unless they are forced to do so. 'Negotiations' – if that's the right word, have been going on for a long, long time, and have got us precisely nowhere. It's all a pity, as I'd quite like to stay long-term – IF my salary and lifestyle were more in line with our competitors. Sadly though, I increasingly believe our management have no interest in serious negotiation, so like many of my colleagues, I'll be brushing up my CV when the time comes. |
Dunno G60, can they cope with:
- 195 command courses (one sim at Gatwick, none at the training centre afaik), plenty of 195 bods either leaving imminently or actively looking - 195 type rating courses - Q400 command courses - Q400 type rating courses - And tripling of the jet fleet over 3 years All at the same time? Doubtful in my mind. And there is an awful lot of people wanting to leave, more than I've heard of in the last 11 years. Flybe needs to seriously sort themselves out very quickly. |
Are pilots with a decent amount of E195 time (either Capt or FO) getting looks from the LCCs and ME carriers like Emirates, Etihad and Qatar? Does having that E195 time help if you are looking elsewhere (even if you only have FO time)?
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Yep, one colleague with E195 time is off to the sandpit imminently.
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There's more than one already!!!!
:D |
Sympathy for your pain
Guys,
I agree with most of what's being put on here, and despite not working for the company, but having MANY friends that do, I have a couple of things to say....... 1. 140 new jet orders 2. Potential floatation in the next while 3. possible upturn in the job market 4. Air France/KLM codeshares 5. Taking your NI contributions 6. !!!! money for doing effectively regional jet/ Euro jet routes but happen to fly turo-props on said !!!! salary 7. Ridiculous scheduling agreement 8. Embarrassing pay rise You all need to sort this NOW. Get behind your crew council and don't settle for a penny less than you're worth. My company ended up giving us a pay rise and a life-style agreement, after the threat to strike. Many had no intention of striking, but the threat was enough, especially with a company like this, who wants potential investors to buy in soon (not keen if there's an unhappy workforce). There is no better time to do this than NOW. If you can't sort out the T&Cs this time round, then it'll never happen again with Flybe. Company won't care if you work to rule, don't save fuel, work into discretion, go that extra mile? Bo##ocks, they'll sit up and listen!! Not meaning to kiss ass or blow smoke, but you guys are overworked and under paid for the job that you do in this industry, and it needs to end. T:suspect: |
I am in the same boat with someone else. The fact is, you fly a TP with a limited earning potential on short hops with about 78 pax, not a 320/737 150+ pax all buying stuff and on a package holiday.
You don't earn them enough £££ to pay you anymore; it is that simple. Keep learning and get out when you can. Job done! |
Aeromaniac:
PAPI-74 is spot on - why do people keep thinking FlyBe is going to start paying what a B737/B757/A320 operator is paying...this world has never been like that!!!!
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