Poll: BALPA's Performance - Vote
 

Actually based on Pitdown Man's response to another thread I started. I am thinking it would be interesting to start a new Poll thread on pilots perception/experiences of BALPA's performance. If nothing else to help them gauge their current and target members. Also to avoid the other thread turning into BALPA bashing and keep it on topic, I think we are all aware how quickly a tangent can sprout.

Evidence you are 20x more inclined to complain than to give praise so hopefully a poll thread with a simple option to click to register a vote and only comment if you feel you need to.

Edited 18th FEB 2010 to reflect poll being made available.

After a few IT issues, here it is, the BALPA Poll.

It's been designed to allow a free and easy way for anyone viewing this thread to give their opinion/perception of the union that is our collective voice and champion.

I know Moderators are a little sceptical of them from experience but as long as this doesn't turn into public tête à tête's.

I changed the options based on the posts up until 23:00 on the 17th FEB. I'm also concious not to make the options biased towards any agenda.

Whatever your vote, if you would like to add additional information in the following format, it is by no means manditory however it would help to see if any trends are forming:

Number of Years Flying
Current Status/Employer
Option Selected
Supporting Reason for Selection

You may want to add another category:

"Previous Member - let down - will not join again"

BALPA Member - impressed. Bruce and others are good guys but have not grasped the enormous pressure that our BALPA reps are facing. The bottom line is that the power lies with the individual BALPA members. Every guy like Bruce, however sincere, who leaves just helps the destruction of the pilot voice. If you are that upset, please become a rep and fight. Do not just leave the field of battle until the rest of the warriors win the fight - no one is impressed by that.

Members would, of course, be voting on their own performance since they are BALPA. Non members vote by either joining or refraining from joining. Simples! Anything else is just bar-talk.

NSF, sorry that's tosh. check your PM.

Happy to carry on a dialogue with you on PM on this issue and request that you remove that quote and reference and will reciprocate likewise by removing this one also.

BALPA Member - Impressed

easyJet BALPA member. Considering ending membership, along with many of my colleagues.

BALPA member, considering ending membership.

BALPA member considering ending membership

BALPA Member - Impressed

BALPA member- Impressed- As an ex-GSM I was impressed by the charitable solidarity of the BALPA membership who 'chipped-in' to the fund that helped the newly redundants.

BALPA member- NOT Impressed - As an ex-GSM'er who was a 'regular' on the Falklands AirBridge MoD contract, I am decidedly p*ssed off by the fact that BALPA has DONE NOTHING to protest to the new contract providers, Air Seychelles, to recruit some of the UK & EU Nationals made redundant when the original contract provider, GSM failed. German, Spanish & French ex-colleagues have stated that this would not be allowed in their countries & questioned the actions of our 'Union'.

BALPA member- NOT Impressed that BALPA can standby & allow newly licensed Pilot's to fall victim to the 'Pay-to-Fly' neo-criminally fraudulent schemes whereby victims are hope filled that they will stand more of a chance obtaining gainful employment by having a rating with a few hundred hours experience, only to be replaced by a new victim & dumped on the dole with a mountain of debt. BALPA should lobby members in these airlines & ask if it is 'morally right' or does it cheapen the value of airline pilots.

BALPA should grow some teeth & squeeze some balls, otherwise if it isn't protecting the rights, conditions & security of it's membership, what is the point of its being?
:ok:

BALPA Member - Considering ending membership

Calling on all IT savvy, found this in the FAQ's but can't find the checkbox it talks about when starting a new thread, anyone got any experience of starting a poll?

You may notice that some threads on this forum also include a section where you can vote on an issue or question. These threads are called 'polls' and this is how to create them:

Creating a new poll

When you post a new thread, you may have the option to also create a poll.

This function allows you to ask a question and specify a number of possible responses. Other members will then be able to vote for the response they wish, and the results of the voting will be displayed in the thread.

An example poll might be:

What is your favorite color?

Red
Blue
Yellow
Green
Sky-blue pink with yellow spots
To create a poll when you post a new thread, simply click the 'Yes! post a poll' checkbox at the bottom of the page, and set the number of possible responses you want to include.

When you click the submit button, you will be taken to the poll creation page, where you can specify the question and the list of responses you want to include.

You may also want to specify a time limit for the poll, so that (for example) it only stays open for voting for a week.

Voting in and viewing a poll

To vote in a poll, simply select which option you want to vote for, and click the [Vote!] button. You may view the current results for a poll before you vote by clicking the 'View Results' link. Voting in a poll is entirely optional. You may vote for any of the available options, or cast no vote at all.

Generally, once you have voted in a poll, you will not be able to change your vote later, so place your vote carefully!

Chocolate ashtray...?
 

Former member......very unimpressed.

Retired, within days found I was locked out of company Balpa pages.

This was the only time they acknowledged my existance over all those years.

BALPA...expensive......political ......poor.....no use.....

390
Forget BALPA

It's a game of numbers.
 

Ex BALPA member, in my experience of 6 years thought they were appalling....twice !

Please have a look at the latest BALPA balance sheet, a copy of which is posted in a crewroom that I visited recently. Forgive me for not recalling the figures exactly, but circa.

Expenses, salaries, big building on Bath Road £690k

Amount spent defending members interests £190k

Can anyone find the exact figures, I fear that they explain much.

MoT

EZY Balpa member, considering ending membership

Balpa member (21 years) - considering ending membership.

There must be an alternative that will actually protect pilots interests.

Woahhhhh there,

Before this gets out of hand, this thread was to get ideas for the options to select. I am still trying to work out how to start a Poll thread on PPRuNe, however the FAQ instructions I posted above doesn't tie in with the options available when I try to start a new thread.

So I'll try again, anyone know how to get a Poll Thread working?

Non Member - Ended Membership - Not Impressed, unhelped in time of need

Number of years flying 9

Current Status/ Employer Employed/ Qatar Airways (not enough vacancies in UK as filled by overseas contractors / pay to flyers)

Option selected Former member cancelled due bad experience

Reasoning:


Hi when I flew for a Uk Cargo operator that was gobbled up by an Irish Rival,

a TUPE transfer ensued, a new contract, with a months notice was signed, however, when I later resigned to join a UK charter carrier, I was threatened to have to work 3 months notice or my reference for an ID pass would not be supplied.

BALPA listened and did nothing, resulting in having to work the longer notice period under considerable duress just to get a reference.

I spoke to a lawyer and was told that although I was in the right on the 1 months notice period of the contract I had signed "if i wanted to stay in the airline industry I would just have to be shafted by the Irish company for the sake of my ID" - even though I held a Full Airside BAA pass already and was just transferring airlines and airport!

Time balpa grew some teeth and protected all UK pilots interests :ok:

Dreamshiner,

The instructions say, "you may have the option to create a poll." Fact is, you don't, probably because the administrator disabled that option in this section of the forum.

Member - Impressed (because we have an excellent CC) - But maybe this says more about my colleagues. I hope not. Because if this is the case, this industry is totally shagged. But I'll repeat what I have said elsewhere, the only realistic union voice we have is BALPA. It will be what you want it to be, but only if you participate. There are no passengers!

PM

The mainline British Unions didn't want to represent a bunch of perceived overpaid posh snobs but these days the difference in salaries between, for sake of comparison, an Inter City Train Driver & a non-BA Airline Captain has diminished to almost parity.

So my 2 questions to the forum are:

Would a modern day Airline Pilot's concerns & fears for their safety, security & futures be better represented by an organisation such as the Transport & General Workers Union? I favour this as FlyGlobespan's HR department hated having to 'deal' with the T&GWU in disputes with Groundstaff & Cabin Crew & generally got their asses kicked by the Union.

And is it the right time time to approach a bigger union when, outside-BA, our terms & conditions are being reduced to the point of apathy & ridicule?

Discuss.
:ok:

I'll contact a moderator to ask if its possible, thanks Adios.

Email sent to Jetdriver asking if its possible to have a dedicated poll thread, awaiting response.

BALPA member - sticking with it.

Daddy-Oh, a couple of years ago at, if memory serves me, MyTravel a sizeable number wanted to go down the TGWU route and in fact one or two did join. Subs were considerably cheaper and things looked quite good. However, when push came to shove the TGWU advised the group that they would not allow them to join as it would be seen as poaching members from an already established union in the airline industry.

Been royally dumped on by BALPA twice but until someone comes up with a better and cheaper alternative them I am going to have to stay in. Until that day I will support my CC in the way I would hope they would support me if it came to it.

It's your association, make it work for you!
 

Firstly, just to make clear, I'm not employed by BALPA, I'm a serving airline pillot for a UK charter operator and just happen to be have elected by BALPA members within my airline to represent their interests with our company.

A lot of bollocks is talked about BALPA, on this website especially.

For the benefit of MoT, let's look at the financial figures quoted. I have never bothered to look at BALPA accounts and I have no idea why anyone would bother printing them out and attaching them to a crew room wall.

Looking at the £690k figure for expenses, salaries and offices. Firstly expenses. I suspect most of them go on reps like me. Our airline has 10+ bases around the UK and I spend quite a lot of time on the road serving my members. To do this I'm reimbursed for my mileage, the odd flight and reasonable sustenance. All of these are paid by BALPA and I reckon I cost about £500 a month, i.e. £6000 per year just one me. I wouldn't be surprised if many Company Councils cost £50k+ in expenses alone.

Don't for a moment I'm making money on this deal. I lose thousands every year in flight pay and allowances.

The BALPA office is now on Heathrow Blvd. It's a modern office building but nothing extravigant and to be honest is only just big enough. It houses all the office staff, which in the main are just there to support the activities of reps like me and most couldn't be considered high earners under any circumstances. At the top, the General Secretary is on a fair whack, but still only on a middling LHS jet salary.

As for defending members, this is the bread and butter for us reps and the most important thing we do. I have no idea which budget this comes from, but we rarely have to call in the lawyers as our relationship with our company means we don't have to and in any case BALPA head office usually has enough legal experience not to need to call the solicitors on a regular basis.

It's a shame there appears so much dissatisfaction with the association. As is often noted it's a member driven organisation. Dysfunctional airlines tend to have dysfunctional company councils, and these are when makes the difference in member's experience of BALPA. This may explain some of the vitriol and bile displayed on these pages.

I would like to think the high levels of membership within my airline reflect the standard of service we provide.

Pilots as a generalisation are self motivated and dare I say selfish individuals, who tend to look to others to make a difference. Many of the comments on Prune reflect this and anyone reading them should bear this in mind. Also, the larger airlines mostly have very active forums through the BALPA website and this is where the adult debate takes place; they aren't anonymous and any statement made must be against your real name. It's all very easy to talk tough with the cloak on anonymity...

I entirely agree that BALPA has been utterly gutless when it comes to dealing with pay as you fly type arrangements. I think it's finally starting to rouse, and hope it's too late. To balance this, as I mentioned in my previous paragraph, it's easy to talk tough when sat anonymously in front of a keyboard, but would you really have the balls to go on strike over it? I'm not sure you would.

Does anyone honestly believe that industry terms and conditions be any worse if BALPA didn't exist? In my company, not a week goes by were the management doesn't try to take something from us or dilute what we have. Our Company Council is the only thing stopping them. And we're one of the better companies in the industry.

My final thought is this, if we all decide to be non-members, eventually all of us will be blind.

DADDY-OH!
 

As I posted on another thread yesterday -

I don't think it has anything to do with socio-economic groups, we all have aspirations, but had more to do with that union considering that you would be better represented elsewhere, the world of aviation is a very specialised field.

However, now that BASSA is a section within Unite and they represent CC outside of BA they may be up for accommodating pilots, you would have to ask. I am a total outsider in this but a long standing union person and would take the view that the old dog has to be very sick before you make the decision to put it down. if it is not then the only medication can be an input of members who are willing to become active rather than passively demand. That includes asking how your money is spent and especially focussing on how you deliver protection and representation to members. Perhaps Unite has greater experience in that delivery and perhaps BALPA could ask them for assistance, it is not unknown.

You may respond to this post by flaming me or agreeing, I would prefer that you do this within YOUR union.

Edited to add - I do not consider the IPA to be a realistic alternative.

I can see possibilities with BALPA aligning with a much larger union. Part of the reason BALPA dues are high relative to other unions is due to it's lack of scale.

Whilst in some ways I admire BASSA, I would be very weary about being attached directly to it. Pilots are very different people from the majority of cabin crew and our interests are not always aligned: witness the current goings on in BA.

Agree with al446 that IPA certainly isn't the way to go. Completely the wrong direction in fact.

BALPA Member - Impressed

and better off financially and lifestyle because of BALPA - it's a no brainer.

BALPA is all we have. Ther is no other union that would work for us.

AS others have said WE are BALPA; if your reps have not succeeded to your satisfaction then become a rep and fight yourself. The most sensible statement here to date is NSF's,

You'd be called some choice names if you did that in the Army...

Equally, do not stand on the sidelines watching the battle and hope to win a porton of the returns for no expended effort. That is called sponging.

The ONLY way we can have a hope of making progress is by EVERYONE being a member, so we have the solidarity to move ahead. Failing to join or leaving in a fit of pique is just letting your oppos down. Simple as that.

Without wishing to comment on the poll as Dreamshiner has organised, I did wish to post a couple more thoughts here.

The very crux of the problem that people are complaining about is that BALPA is necessarily a grouping of individuals ostensibly acting under the same umbrella name to protect their own company interests - In effect each company CC is acting as an individual BALPA, perhaps a BALPA franchise. Ergo, the umbrella grouping does NOT serve the needs of the whole in any shape or form, only the individual parts. The most effective unions utilise the principle that the whole is greater than the sum of it's parts. Think of it as CRM for unions...

It seems obvious to me that this is a major, major failing.

Is it beyond the wit of the Balpa general secretary to see this and therefore organise a superset of individual CCs - or perhaps retirees who have loved their career but are not quite ready for completely hang up their headsets just yet - to act as the representation for the industry as a whole. Perhaps focussing on the more salient points that affect all of us who are in training, trained but yet to find first job, trained and experienced or in work, rather than company specific issues which can continue to be dealt with by the current set up. Areas such as Flight time regulations, PTF, base qualifications, standards could/should be looked at and pressure/influencing directly applied to EASA or equivalents.
If this IS beyond the wit of BALPA to see or act on, then one can rightly question what the bloody hell the point is. Would you sign up for BALPA if it were actually BALPA - BA, BALPA - easyJet, BALPA - Thomas Cook etc
(i.e. obviously only one company)

All the time this piece of the puzzle is missing, individual companies can stretch and push the boundaries of their own environment, using and reacting to the wider economic picture to justify reductions or failure to re-instate. And as we all know, only rarely will company A offer better terms than company B if B is getting away with reducing T&Cs. There is NOTHING to stop them, other than a determined individual CC...but even then if Ts&Cs in the rest of the industry have reduced by 50% then even that group would have to admit they had no grounds to defend on.

Elected Rep - you mentioned that it's easy to talk tough under the cloak of anonymity. This is true. But it's also very reflective of another failing of the union - to restrict the bullying (for want of a better term) that this industry is riddled, absolutely riddled, with. People don't WANT to be known by their real names because they are well aware that speaking up can lead to "...I'll :mad: your career" - especially when you're on the lower rungs of the ladder. This leads to further issues, because those with enough seniority to not have to worry about this any more enjoy the best Ts&Cs and are disinclined, generally, to rock the boat.
This malaise starts and spreads from the very base building blocks of ATPL ground school up to stories such as that recounted by Fokkerplod. This is the problem. "I'm alright Jack and screw the rest of you".

I applaud loud Dreamshiner's main comments that maybe, just maybe, the penny is dropping and people are starting to realise that looking out for number one has led to this horrendous situation. I thank him publicly for airing it and I pray that this continues and gathers pace. However it seems Balpa are again behind the drag curve and reacting, not pro-acting (is there such a verb?).

The post of Clanger32 encapsulates the problem nicely. The current system "does not serve the needs of the whole".

This is not BALPA bashing. This problem can be fixed if we first recognise that there is a problem. How can BALPA ever tackle some of the big issue's facing our industry today - like pay to fly schemes et al, under the present system?.

It does not have to be like this. As for if the penny has dropped yet - I am not sure. BA friends are quick to praise their CC efficiency (in tackling exclusively BA issue's) while seemingly oblivious to the relentless rise of the Loco's who's business model guarantee's them a competitive advantage. Maybe an upturn in the economy will save them.

It would be interesting if a poll could be organised.

OK, the poll is now up and running. Voting threads are no longer an option for the plebs.

Changed the first post to reflect the changes thus far and would ask all who have already posted to register their votes now the count is up and running.

You have one vote which can't be changed, think hard before you post and be accurate with your mouse.

Number of Years Flying: 5

Current Status/Employer: Redundancy due to Global downturn - Charter Airline

Option Selected: Former member - Cancelled out of touch / not effective

Supporting Reason for Selection:
1) Went to BALPA job conference at LHR, 90% of attendee's fATPL holders <500 hours. Emirates, Etihad, Virgin Atlantic, etc. all gave talks however hiring minimums were >2,500/3,000. Easy/TCX/Monarch/Thomson (traditional hirers of low houred applicants) all no shows. Charged £70.
2) Canadian pilot agreement with TCX and how its being exploited, no action.
3) Reports of schoolboy errors and oversights in negotiations (outwith BA).
4) Looking at pilot T&C's vs train driver T&C's from 20 years ago and see what effective collective bargaining can achieve when dealing with numerous companies.
5) Pay2Fly schemes - I still don't know what their position is or if they have a strategy. From their forum not one BALPA employee made a comment, however they were quick to post on issues that were either easy to deal with or faff (in my humble opinion). This is single most important issue we will have to deal with in the next few years.

NOT FIT FOR PURPOSE

Years flying: 6
Current Status/Employer: Employed Scheduled airline.
Option Selected: Former member - Cancelled out of touch / not effective
Supporting Reason: Asked twice for support on a personal issue and didn't get any.
More importantly on a company wide issue at a time when our operation wasn't so much acquired but given to another airline, negiotiations were completed between mgmt and CC and we weren't consulted or balloted.
Tried to speak to balpa central got told to deal directly with ineffectual rep.
Stop subscriptions after that.

Number of years flying: 23

Current Status/Employer: Unemployed/Waiting to join a Lo-Cost operator.

Option selected: BALPA member- NOT impressed.

Supporting reason for selection: Pay-to Fly isn't being challenged & British jobs AREN'T going to unemployed British/EU Pilots.

BALPA is a Toothless Eunuch!- It has neither Balls nor Bite!
:ok:

Former member - utterly unimpressed, TOTAL waste of money

Commercially flying in UK for 22 years, still employed. Many type ratings inc. B737 TRI/TRE.

Reason: I'm not in the airline sector and therefore BALPA may as well advise me on growing tomatoes for all they know about non-scheduled airline work, they took our money and didn't have a bloody clue about private aviation....

As well as that how the hell has the industry been allowed to diminish to the current pathetically low level if the mighty BALPA have any BALLS at all? :{

Would anyone who voted "member - content" or "member - impressed" care to share their experiences so the thread is more balanced.

At present (100-odd votes), those who are currently members and look upon BALPA favourably make up around 40-45% of the votes cast so far.

It would also be interesting to find out why the "never been member - unimpressed" have voted that way (not pilots/don't find unions effective/not eligible/American's/etc.)

Being a BALPA member, I wish pay-to-fly wannabes would just die before their form of filthy prostitution infects us all. Is that too plain in today's Labour Britain? If so then I'm sorry to have offended. So very very sorry. Really. No I am.

WWW

WWW,

I do have to say that if I'd had to pay to be a pilot I would now be a retired engineer.

I was EXTREMELY lucky:
1. MoD engineering apprenticeship.
2. Seagoing marine engineer officer (which seemed to count at 3) then IBM.
3. Didn't think of myself as 'officer material' but the RAF kindly trained me to fly.
4. Following upon 3, wife talked me out of 'bush flying' in Africa and I just got in to BEA as the 1973 fuel crisis hit and the recruitment doors slammed shut barely missing my botty.

Terms such as: 'fickle finger of fate' and 'charmed life' spring to mind.

I'd have been just as happy as an IBM engineer (which was on the cards at the time - no pun intended - only old computer people will get that)

As originally an eng it is irritating that I get more respect for being a pilot but, hey, what the heck!

Oh, re BALPA, well, I reckon I was 47 before I had a decent salary and that was just because BALPA negotiated the Long Range Premium deal on the 744 which increased my gross by 25k.

Two best employers: IBM and BA (but if you try a head to head with BA they will destroy you - just be realistic)

p.s. HTF did I get into T&E? I'm retired! Must be because I'm just in from pub. There IS life after aviation - but not much :}

WWW. You must be such a laugh to fly with. BALPA Bitch. At least the magizine is ok...