Back in the late eighties/early nineties when I flew for BMI the BALPA CC members largely comprised wannabee pilot management.
When I needed help, it was found wanting, and the bod on "my" side of the table (who surprise surprise subsequently became management) effectively just rubber-stamped the decision taken by management before having a nice round of golf & a couple of pints down the lodge with his "adversary" :hmm:

Between 2 & 3 years ago IALPA were very confident in the percentage of support they had (both IALPA & BALPA) within Ryanair. They wanted to go for a vote on recognition at that time and were VERY confident of a successful outcome.
The head honcho at BALPA ( not the current one) at that time scuppered it by stating that he wouldn't countenance a recognition vote until a full time official to represent Ryanair was recruited.
He then proceeded to attempt to recruit for this position by offering a fixed period contract only, which is rather half baked when you consider the calibre of person required if you are going to tackle Ryanair.
Long and the short of it is that the impetus was lost and the chance evaporated in the wind.
Next time round, a slightly slow starting wishy washy "respect" campaign floundered on the rocks before it became too embarassing.

The real chance was squandered nearly 3 yrs before.

Guess that makes me a dissatisfied ex-member.

BALPA is essentially a group of unions (CCs) that largely operate autonomously. Granted there are BALPA wide policies, but in terms of union activity relating directly to one company, it's that companies CC that makes the decisions.

The BACC, imo, is excellent. I don't agree with everything they do, but by and large I feel very well represented. Given the situation our cabin crew are in, I'm glad we have a group of talented and hard working reps.

Incidentally, the effectiveness of the BACC is largely down to the fact that over 90% of BA pilots are members.

In summary, I don't really see the point of this poll. If you want it to have any meaning then multiple polls judging happiness with each individual CC would be required.

Would it's members
 

Allow it to become 'The British Airline People Association'?

An ever decreasing number of active members, but could they arrest the decline?

Bus429LHR

That's all very well & good & I'm glad all the BA guys are happy with BALPA.

However, in the real world, things are a lot tougher & BALPA does a lot less for the rest of us & as you can see, the 'Malcontents' camp are generally not happy with BALPA & are larger in number than the contented.

Would BALPA be more effective & more accountable if:

BALPA members in a company decided whether or not to have CC's? Or individual Rep's reporting directly to BALPA?

Would it be better for BALPA to directly employ Rep's & place them with airlines that recognise BALPA? They don't have to be Line Pilots, just negotiators trained & familiar with the role, pressures & demands of Pilot's in the workplace.

If they decide to retain CC's, should those CC's consist of Line Pilots if some may abuse the position by posturing for management jobs? Should BALPA CC Reps' be made powerful enough to by-pass Fleet Level, Chief Pilot & DFO ranks & report or negotiate with the Chief Exec. or Board directly similar to the Flight Safety chain within an airline?

Should airline reps' be based at BALPA HQ & not be employed by the airline so aggrieved BALPA members can go straight to BALPA.

The whole system in its present shape is ineffective, corrupt, gutless, toothless & it stinks & it is only exacerbating the de-valuation of the role of Pilot's today.

During my years in aviation, a trainer whom I greatly admire was on a CRM course when some of the managers from departments all across the airline came in & 'BIG'ed up their own importance in running the airline & spewed forth how the airline needed EVERY person in EVERY department.
This trainer friend of mine then said to them something along the lines of,

"Well we'll have a little experiment shall we? All you management people in your 'backroom' departments take a week off, go home & spend some time off & just let the Pilots, Cabin Crew, Engineers & Op's staff run the airline for a week. Sure, for the first few days might be interesting but we'd keep it going. After the week, we'd let all the minions & managers back in & send home all the Pilots, Cabin Crew, Engineers & Ops staff for their week at home & then see how long the airline could operate for. Now exactly WHO does RUN the airline??!!!"

Personally, I think we have to take back the high ground here. I think it's time for an Airline Industry Specific union encompassing Pilot's, Cabin Crew, Engineers & Operations staff across the industry with a CC in each airline made up of reps from each discipline instead of a Pilot's Union, a Cabin Crew Union etc.

I couldn't give tosh if another Captain in a similar airline, flying a similar type from the same base on similar routes is earning X pounds more than me, or gets more time off or a better pension- those debates are for later. Right now, all I want is union protection from industry wide, rapidly erroding employment terms & conditions, and in my experience & opinion BALPA DOES NOT DELIVER. It's time for something new.
:ok:

Former member - Cancelled out of touch / not effective
 

Ridiculously expensive, achieved very little tangible or worthwhile whilst with BM, and then BALPA refused to assist and were hugely unhelpful during the whole BA / BACX farrago.:rolleyes:

BritishAirwaysLinePilotsAssoc.

BA might obviously disagree, buts that the way it was / is.

Now with the IPA - huge saving, pretty much the same benefits, legal protection, insurance, financial advice etc etc Also much easier to communicate with / to and far more helpful.:ok:

BALPA Member for 6 years generally satisfied but their lack of communication sometimes lets them down.

At Easy we have a Very Good CC , no management wanabees , in fact quite the opposite in fact.


Non Membership and Moaning and bitching from the sidelines about previous failures in other airlines weakens BALPA'S position and just leads to a reduction in its effectivness and strengthens management hands.

If we had 90% plus membership at Easy we would be in a much better place to fight our battles.

Its About your Current Airline not your Last.

BALPA is not perfect but it is all we have.

FlyingTinCans
 

This has long been a problem for unions in general, because the member did not get the service they thought they should they leave the union. In fairness, sometimes it is warranted as the branch they are a member of is run badly and I can see their point of view, I have had this within my own union due to an elected officer hitting the bottle and wanting an easy life. The answer to this may be to highlight it to the branch secretary but 1) It may take several failures by the officer for it to be an issue 2) My problem is immediate and needs dealing with in a professional manner NOW.

Had the problem been of sufficient magnitude to lead to dismissal the failure would have been picked up at some point but not before I had suffered considerable anguish. I chose to stay in the union and all is fine now.

The problem within BALPA as I see it from what limited knowledge I have is that your T&Cs are not negotiated across the board with each company setting their own, also different disciplinary procedures between airlines. This brings about greater reliance on the local rep who may think they know it all but have no legal background. It is up to MEMBERS to come forward to fill these positions but all unions struggle to find people who will put the effort in.

Meanwhile, the non-members will make 'noises off' about how little the union has done for them and generally spreading dissent/poison against the union while enjoying the pay the union has negotiated (that is within those with recognition).

If I am to believe some of the posts I read on here BALPA is a broken tool but the gripes tend to be non specific and drawn from experience of several years ago or what happened to someone else, they may also be due to inflated expectation.

As an example of that expectation I see things posted about P2F, a despicable money grubbing scheme by airlines, but NO union could change this as it is perfectly legal, it may be having a terrible effect on some of you guys but it is at a political level that this will be changed, probably European. So BALPA is the wrong target.

Perhaps this is an example of the arguments any proponent of the union should be rehearsing. Perhaps the union should be briefing its reps on this kind of argument.

Just my 2p worth.

BALPA member resigned.

Whilst all the ancillary persuits of BALPA are noble and right what I really wanted from BALPA was a bit more pit bull attitude towards defending my terms and conditions.

Maintaining a good working relationship with management and negotiating rather than resorting to industrial action is again noble and right. However the modern breed of airline managers don't give a to$$ for what is noble and right and are prepared to trample all over our negotiated terms and conditions in order to reduce the cost base.

BALPAs consistent failure to set a boundaries in their relationship with management ultimately leads to a dysfunctional relationship. Management need to realise there are boundaries and there are consequences for stepping beyond those boundaries. It seems that my current employer is only willing to negoitate meaningfully when dragged to the precipice of industrial action and made to look into the abyss. Concessions made by employees in good faith during difficult trading conditions are rarely if ever recouped when times are good. Goodwill is a concept understood but abused by management.

My stance is that there are too many poodles chowing down on prime steak at HQ and not enough pit bulls willing to scrap for their members.

Alternatives to BALPA - legal insurance through ALPL, union representation through UNITE. Both for 1/3rd of the cost of BALPA subs.

Ezy ex EMA Considering resigning:mad::mad:

BALPA member - undecided
 

It seems to me (as a relative newcomer to the industry) that the overwhelming issue here is whether BALPA are going to get 'stuck in' regarding the pay to fly 'problem.' I have only been in the RHS for 2 years now, but I was adamant that I was NOT going to pay for my 'in', either by paying for a TR or even 'TR+' package. So as a result I currently reside in a TP which I thoroughly enjoy flying, although I don't want this forever!

With eyes to the future it seems that some of the traditional escape routes from my TP life have been blockaded by a torrent of pay to fly cheaper options. Whilst I sympathise with these new cadets looking for work, ANY work, they are reducing my and my fellow aviators' options long term. So lamentably, I find myself hoping that somebody else's CC can do something about it because my CC do not have to address this issue (or so I imagine,) as I can't see anyone paying to fly a TP! So for the forseeable my company will continue to pay for bonded type training, and it remains 'out of my hands' so to speak, regardless of me wanting to see the issue resolved.

So I guess in a nut shell I'm looking over the fence hoping this can be resolved but I am totally bemused as to what I can do. I'm open to suggestions!

Apologies for this long meandering run!

Regards
Flyingcamel

flyingcamel
 

From my last post -

Have you tried contacting your MP about this issue?

I think it might be connected to the fact that a union really only has the nuclear option when it comes to a fight. Being rather conservative, and ranging from let's-not-rock-the-boat types to an alternative word for cats - pilots are unlikely to back that option.

What do you expect? The BNP aren't in power as most people outside of Lancashire don't like cheap pseudo neo-nazi ideas, if they did, we'd have to roll out the carpet for PM Griffin. By the same token, if Balpa were to bang the drum hard (and remember it's illegal for them to incite strikes) it doesn't necessarily follow that pilots would back it.

Another thing that pussies have in common with cats is that they're hard to herd.

Balpa member - Impressed - for now...

Short term: Terms and conditions at my airline would be worse than they are currently were it not for the work of our CC. My subs have paid for themselves. The CC work hard on our behalf have been effective on several major issues. If only there were a way for the non-members in my company to have the decency to decline the benefits negotiated by a union who apparently aren't worth the money and be true to their convictions.

Who do you all think is going to bother fighting the new EASA FTL's if not BALPA?

Long term I'm not so sure Balpa's collegiate "professional organisation" style is going to work against current airline management trends (greedy yobbish thugs and spivs etc) and think the dinousaur/bonehead UNITE-type of bloody mindedness might be the only appropriate club left in the bag.

Caudillo
 

Same goes for most people inside of Lancashire:=

(what a toolbox!)

Rgds
The Moss:ok:

This would not appear to be the DHL pilots opinion.

Which airlines have a company council affiliated to the IPA and recognised by the management within that airline as the pilots representative group?

Perhaps BALPA would like to have the chance to defend themselves here?!:confused:

Come on BALPA show us all you have the balls to do it!

M.

Former member cancelled due bad experience.
Flying since 1982, currently with LCC.
Paid dues to BALPA for seven years - then Danair went bust. Strangely no desire to throw away any more money in BALPA's direction.
:mad::mad: :ugh:

As I type this there have been over 430 votes, overwhelmed by the response so far.

All I would reiterate is the points of my previous post where I asked for the sizeable numbers voting who are current BALPA members and are happy/content to give an idea why or if there is a trend with their experience level or airline.

2nd is directed at those who have never been a member, please advise why you voted the way you did, are you flying elsewhere in the world, are you 15 and an avid FSX aficionado, etc.

Please if you take the time to vote please add a comment as to your motivations, it would really help the debate. However it is by no means mandatory, just interesting when looking combined with the results gathered.

Please use the following format if possible:

Number of Years Flying
Current Status/Employer
Option Selected
Supporting Reason for Selection

BALPA MEMBER - NOT IMPRESSED. Employed

4star
 

Wise words indeed. I have been fighting the corner of unions in general on here in various threads for a while. I have done so since the attempt for recognition within RYR, clarified the legal position when total distortions of the true state have been posted to mislead and tried to illustrate why some present/would be members have expectations beyond what is legally possible. Some BALPA members or sympathisers have aided me BUT at no point has a BALPA (or other union) official come on and posted their stance.

Perhaps BALPA may be better responding to this thread.

Former BALPA Member - cancelled, total waste of money!

It is a complete game, nothing more. Things have now turned, I think for the foreseeable future of UK airline life.

I will be redundant at the end of April from a 'large' union orientated UK airline. This particular CC have just discovered this 'new' game from management who are now making sure it is they who run the company, not a bunch of senior guys who are, in reality, looking after the interests of senior pilots. I personally believe it is these folk, who are desperate to hang on to and have turned 'Big Seniority' into something special, why the future pilots of the industry are now suffering.

I am now joining easyJet, a BALPA recognised company, albeit working for PARC on a contract that is nothing short of disgusting...but I need a job!

1% payrise for me at least, I will never rejoin.

Regards
Sean

Former member - cancelled out of touch & ineffective
 

I'm not sure that statement is correct. I think the problem with getting unity from the pilot body is due to the very nature of our working style. What I mean by that is we work in small isolated groups, and away from our peers. As an FO you spend very little time with other FOs, and likewise Captains. The opportunities are the frantic few minutes in the crew room as one crew reports, and another logs out, or the occasional beer down route on a rare nightstop. Without regular contact noone quite knows what anyone else is thinking, or intending to do. This plays into the employers hands in an industrial sense in that divide and conquer is already achieved. That is why pilots need a more effective union right from the top, and that is what BALPA doesn't do.

BALPA represents the loudest, and most senior, and has ignored those coming in at he bottom hence the evolution of bonds to self sponsored type rating to pay to fly. BALPA should have jumped on these schemes right from the beginning, but when I was last a member of BALPA, and tried to raise this issue with them in the London office I was told in as many words that it was a good thing. There were other factors in my decision to never have anything to do with BALPA ever gain, but that was certainly a big factor.

Another aspect of BALPA that I didn't like was that one of the Principle Negotiators (I think that was the title) was so antagonistic towards the management that relations between the CC, and the mangers were completely destroyed, negotiations broke down, and management will was imposed, and below what could have been achieved with the CC.

BALPA: worth 2% of my salary? No. No way.

al446

BALPA? Comment on here??? They're too busy!! How can they do that when they're getting ready to battle in the Supreme Court fighting for BA Pilot's Holiday Pay after the High Court said ruled in favour of BA?

When will BALPA do something about helping people closer to the breadline?

Am I right in thinking that the BA Pilot's want payments the equivalent of Duty Pay while they aren't on duty or don't they get paid holidays at salary level rates?
:ok:

They can't. They're a union and they don't pay the salaries. They can only be effective if members are prepared to put their balls on the line. Which most aren't.

After being going for a week the BALPA Perception Poll has attracted just a little shy of 500 votes. The number of votes cast has started to slow and the posts continuing the debate has faltered slightly (which wasn't the aim). So in an effort to boost things it needs a little jump start.

Unfortunately I don't work for MORI otherwise I'd be able to advise the error factor in the poll. However some results are irrefutable if answered honestly by PPRuNe members. I've been monitoring this thread actively. I've also tried to stimulate posts from those who were voting in significant numbers but weren't adding comments as to why. Most posts so far tend to be from the disenfranchised.

However in an effort to stimulate debate and initiatives here goes some basic analysis of the results so far:

Current BALPA Membership

The most noticable trend with the voting on this over the past week was the contents/could do better's were in the majority until approx. halfway through the vote, when they were matched and then eclipsed by those considering ending membership. The first three options have by and large shared an equal percentage +/- 3% throughout.

Worryingly for the membership administrators 34% are currently considering ending membership and a further 27% would do so if they felt there was a viable alternative (I by no means degrade the IPA here - I have been a member of both and found them more helpful and more attuned to my needs when I approached them both before my first airline interview)

So based on the votes so far, there is roughly a 40%-60% split, with the minority favouring BALPA's performance and perception.

Again, it would be interesting (despite a couple of requests already) if we could see if there is a trend in terms of experience level or airline of the 40% of members who are content/impressed. It has been suggested on about three threads currently running at present that these may predominately be members of certain airlines with robust Company Councils (CC's for those new to the expression).

Former Members

There is no definitive information as to when this group ended/cancelled their membership. I was limited to 9 options in the poll. From comments made and PM's sent to me it would generally appear to be over a wide spread of time (From Dan Air in the early 90's to the past few months). The next set of conclusions may be erroneous as a result but also have some validity.

If the former members are added together they total approximately 130 (03:00 25/FEB). This makes them the biggest group of those holding/held BALPA membership and have voted in this poll. When combining with the current members votes (total: 440) we see 30% have cancelled, 25% are actively considering it, 20% are not happy, 19% are content and 6% impressed.

Now adding together the malcontent's, disenfranchised and unimpressed a total of 75% is achieved compared to 25% who voted as content/impressed. This is a massive 3:1 ratio and to put it in context equals that of George Bush just before he left office*.

Again, worryingly for BALPA is at the two extremes of cancellation and strong support. Those who's perception/experience is damaged outnumber those who have strong support and praise by almost 5:1.

Never Been Members

I would suggest (as nobody has informed me either by PM or publicly) that this group is made up of foreign pilots, those not covered by the auspices of BALPA's remit, student pilots, aspiring pilots, and general spotters who have a strong interest in aviation and trawl through PPRuNe as a result.

Not all of the 50ish who have voted in these 2 categories would be potential new recruits however some would be. Of interest to any BALPA hierarchy reading this (because they must have had wind before now) is that for every 1 person who looks upon them favourably, almost 10 do not. This to me seems to suggest they need to employ some better PR activities going forward as they certainly have an image problem that needs addressing.

As I have asked for already it would be really interesting to know why this 50 voted this way and their backgrounds. If its foreign pilots comparing their perceptions of the British unions effectiveness to their own then that would certainly be worth debating further.

Discuss ................

(* Washington Post Timeline: Bush's Eight Years in Office | washingtonpost.com)

Am a BALPA member. Employed by BA and in general, v happy with what our CC have achieved through tough and principled negotiation. We are fortunate to have some great intellects battling for us........

Someone made the very valid point about the fragmented nature of our union due numerous CCs fighting their own individual battles. This is definitely something which weakens big BALPA.

Personally, what really irks me, is big BALPA's apparent ineffectiveness in tackling the major issues that affect us all - SSTRs, PTF schemes, Airport Security......... As many before have said, time to grow some balls and teeth and start upsetting one or two applecarts.

In summary, a BALPA member who is (a) satisfied with my CC and (b) VERY DISSATISFIED with big BALPA

Well put sid,

I think wise to distinguish that we have BALPA national level and BALPA CC's at local level.

The options on this poll could have been tailored to distinguish between national level and local if I had more than 9 available. However i didn't have that luxury so I would suggest that those who perceive BALPA negatively are looking at the organisation nationally, on the converse those who have voted positively would be more influenced by their direct CC. I maybe wrong with this analysis.

BALPA national level should be taking a lead and tackling the major issues you outlined, supporting students, newly qualified and unemployed despite their subs ranging from £0-£2 per month. They may not cover your bills now Mr McAuslan, but they will in the future, but only if you act now.

P2F is almost universally despised and an effective stance on this cancer would be welcomed.

I wouldn't mind a bit of BALPA's resources being put into forward planning and investigation on what might be thrown at us in the next couple of years so it can be cauterised before its too late.

I would argue is to ensure continuity and consistency in the effectiveness at CC level throughout all CC's. The exchange of best practice and tactics as ever CC ins't as well versed and exacting as BA's, maybe Easy's could devise a new approach if advice was sought. A method where a CC can explain themselves and their course of action to their peers after a decision/agreement would help too based on what I've read so far. A secure forum on the BALPA website would allow this.

Also a transparent way of reporting alleged ineffectiveness to national level would also appease some who have voiced their negative experiences of their CC or an individual rep on here.

This is the tip of the iceberg, I would hope that a further 20 or so initiatives would be adopted as soon as possible, for there are no shortage of ideas, just will.

Perhaps some CC member could contact H.Q. and try and "wake up" the beast with a suggestion that they take heed of this problem rather than making like an ostrich.
500 (and counting) is a reasonable straw poll of their members, and hey, we even have a BA member who, whilst satisfied locally, has identified the lack of action @ the top.
TIME TO WAKE UP BALPA ! ! Or wait until you see the membership dwindling ? :rolleyes: but then it is too late, proactive beats reactive any day :ugh:

British Airways Line Pilots Association.

Balpa - working mainly in the interests of British Airways.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Former member - Cancelled due to ineffectiveness within the main body of Balpa.

Complete waste of money, would rather give it to a worthwhile charity.

I will never rejoin.

Former Member - Cancelled - out of touch / ineffective

I'm also with Sid, if a genuine attempt to tackle the things as Sid has listed were made, i'd be happy to rejoin and support them. But I read nothing but people talking about it and no action.

I also met some very good blokes at 'local' level, but on the whole, a powerless group of individuals when it comes to the things that matter and a complete waste of money!

JB

To those BALPA bashers:

BALPA is NOT them, it is us. If you think it is ineffective and poor value for money - and your judgement may be correct - then stand for election to your CC and the NEC, get in there and CHANGE IT. The REAL enemies are apathy and indolence. To paraphrase an old cliché, all that is necessary for expoitation to triumph is for the membership to do nothing. Write, march, stand for election, run the councils, learn about employment law, confront the managements. Then, if you fail, and only then, can you complain about BALPA being useless and poor value.

Well, after a couple of years out of the BALPA "fold" I've renewed my membership.

Why?

Time to stand up and be counted.

Wingswinger.......spot on.

They could do better, but content.

Employed for 11 years with TCX.

I agree with sid, we are very lucky to have a great CC that have negotiated very effectively with the company over the years (there have been several occasions where the pay rise achieved by Balpa was over and above other non-unionised groups). I see my membership as self funding, and am very happy. Our CC have a good relationship with the management, and work hard at securing/improving our terms and conditions whilst at the same time appreciating the difficulties our industry faces.

I do think big Balpa has a long way to go.

Number of Years Flying: 35 Years
Current Status/Employer Captain: 747-400. Employed
Option Selected: Former Member- Cancelled due bad experience(s)
Supporting Reason for Selection: Too numerous to list. Myopic self serving bunch of ex patriot wasters.

It has came to my attention that some members may be trying to influence this vote. By viewing this post as a guest or signing out (if you have automatic sign in function enabled) it allows you to vote even if you have already done so.

I tend to keep a close eye on this thread as JetDriver advised at its conception that polls could degenerate quickly and miss the initial goal. I have seen a trend were at certain times votes at the extremes of this poll have increased dramatically in context and comparison. I just wish an IP address tag was left for each vote, however it hasn't and no doubt be breaching some privacy law if it was.

All I would say is if you have to resort to this sort of behaviour to gerrymander a vote to your agenda then you need to take a long look in the mirror and at your motives.

Gerrymander eh? Its not exactly a very scientific poll now is it.

The bottom line is that unionised companies, unionised sectors and unionised industries all tend on average to offer more favourable terms and conditions over time.

Its a fact.

Some pilots join the only UK trade union for pilots and some don't. Shame we all don't. But heh - what can you do?


WWW

It was never advertised as a scientific poll WWW and as my previous post showed I am more than willing to bring its failings to the attention even if it may attract criticism from those who don't agree with its results.

Rather than find holes in the security, it may be more worthwhile to question the integrity of those who may have acted to push things a little more to favour their standpoint.

Also a rather questionable statement directed against the IPA from someone who should be demonstrating objectivity.

In which case I think you should be looking at the EZY thread and cautioning against using this poll's results as a basis of argument.

I have declined the invitation to vote on this as I do not want to skew the results but I can envisage others who may not have such scruples distorting things and then using their own distortion to argue their own for/anti stance.

In light of your admission perhaps you should close this thread, it seems more divisive than you may have intended. And we don't want that, do we?

Wee Weasley Welshman
 

Some pilots join the only UK trade union for pilots and some don't. Shame we all don't. But heh - what can you do?



Whilst not wishing to sway anyone's opinion on this thread, I feel that a response is required when a moderator makes a biased statement, as above. It is incorrect, and does not reflect well on this forum.

I merely remind people that there is another trade union for pilots - I.P.A.