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You've answered your own question there AB. Keep buying the jobs and the T&C's will continue to decline, it's like turkeys voting for christmas.
I've spent the better part of two decades telling people not to. Some listened, many didn't and now we have this disgusting situation where those that went before are smiling as they draw the ladder up behind them. Make no bones about it, if you bought your way in you contributed to the state of things. It's irrefutable. What I will continue to do is help, where I can, those determined to buck this odious little system and work their way up. Fortunately their mindset pre-disposes them to GA and bizjets where we're still happy to watch each others backs as opposed to planting knives in them. |
So it now seems some want decreasing t&c's!
outdated 1980's style pay agreements that don't belong in this era? One way for some, another for others! Yeah I paid for a type rating but hey, those who went to excel, jet 2, easyjet, bmibaby etc who paid for theirs to an extent so I don’t think paying for the rating is the issue and so should be kept out the whole t&c debate. I've been in a holdpool for over 2 years for one of these mystical paid for type ratings. Still waiting. FR pays my bills and allows me to look after my family and believe it or not, even with a paid for type rating in the very very slow cooker it was the perhaps one of my better decisions as I enjoy my work. Just a shame I need to make my own lunch but for some I guess that’s how mundane their life has really got that they can no longer do it! If things don’t improve in FR after this downturn I may look to go elsewhere but as stated they are the only boys in town and as MOL says, "I’d love the BA job........." 6000+ move to biz jets and the decreasing t&c debate starts all over again! As for the whole no balls, for those that do stand up you still kick them down, for those that cant stand up you still kick them down! I await the abuse and prob wont reply kempus |
Only the other day I witnessed a Ryanair 737-800 take a 14kt tailwind into Bergerac ILS 28 after we'd landed on 10 via a procedure. That runway is not a long one if you follow the glide. That's outside our tailwind limits and I fly a bloody Dash 8. Even the tower queried it a couple of times but then I guess you boys saved time and fuel so MOL saved money to spend on racehorses. We did things the long way round and cost our company money but in airmanship terms ours was the correct decision. if the freq wasnt blocked I would of said something. yes indeed, STUPID! |
I don’t think paying for the rating is the issue and so should be kept out the whole t&c debate. In many cases train drivers are in a better position than airline pilots are now. Paid during training and training paid for; in an industry where those individuals are safety critical employees that is reasonable and an essential investment in those employees. Why are pilots stupid enough to subsidise airlines out of their own pocket? It makes even less sense when that airline is hugely profitable. Do they need the charity? :ugh: Considering that pilots should be intelligent people who are required to work as a closely knit team it seems almost ironic that there are so many that are happy to screw their colleagues over for short term gain. Yes, Slim I am looking at you. I used to have alot of respect for you Slim, but working for RYR obviously has shown you in your true light, and good grief what a nasty, petty chap you come across as - you really are living the RYR dream aren't you? If this is the attitude you display in public (and don't forget we know who you work for) and are a representative of your employer here whether you like it or not. If this is how senior aircrew behave at RYR, I am NEVER going to entrust the safety of myself and my family to your company ever again. So, well done, Slim, you have just lost your company at least 12 customers. :D Just in case anyone missed this gem on another forum...it is worth reading; A friend of mine told me about a dinner he went to where there was an advisor in economics to the "brightly coloured" airline board, (a social accident - he did not know him before or fix it up, his friends he went with did). He told me that this guy was fascinating. His contempt for pilots knew no bounds and he expounded gleefully on the summer-only contracts he forsaw and the increasing contractorisation of piloting overall, where contractors bid for the work the brand generated and the lowest cost base won. He looked whistfully at Eastern Europe as a great source of cheap pilots and said supply easily exceeded demand for the forseeable future. His view was that flying an airliner was a slightly more sophisticated train driver style job and said, bluntly, that some train drivers now earned more than pilots, which was as it should be in his view, especially for FO's who he viewed as a legal requirement but otherwise woefully overpaid for their contribution. This, he predicted would change rapidly and so, it seems, is the case at the brightly coloured airline, as elsewhere. He admitted, apparently, that airlines were a pretty cosy club through the various trade bodies they belong to and that they all got together to discuss areas of mutual interest like overhead - particularly staff costs. The oil price makes an airline a price taker but salaries are where they can be a price maker, he said, and that they were all determined to drive the status and salaries of piloting through the floor. It was, he felt, a ridiclous "career" to enter as the specialisation was so narrow and the industry itself so vulnerable to external shocks that it was virtually to condemn oneself to a job where opportunities were increasingly limited and salaries shrinking in real terms every year and with little chance to move outside it at a corporate level unless to manage within it, where the focus would inevitably be on who could deliver the cheapest cost base given the total commoditisation of the industry product. That meant being the best at screwing down the earnings of your own peer group. He felt that this was all fair game and that the market was so easy to rig against pilots come any sign of a downturn in the economy that becoming one was the height of folly, but that, never-the-less, plenty of people kept applying so there was little need to adjust the career to attract the best, they would take what they got. Safety cut little ice because, as he put it, "you lot all want to get home to your families at the end of your overpaid day, so the passengers will be fine too." |
Nice of you to liken the proffession to that of train driver! Bring the oppertunity to bring things down further! According to pprune the whole pay for type rating thing is FR's fault which I dont see but you all come on here acting if it was. Lets start a thread for every airline thats has an SSTR so we can have a go individually!
Considering that pilots should be intelligent people who are required to work as a closely knit team it seems almost ironic that there are so many that are happy to screw their colleagues over for short term gain. Oh and lets not forget about the friend of a friend of a friend of a friend of a friend......... |
Kempus.
If you think G-AWKZ is the first to compare you to a train driver then I'm afraid you've not been paying attention. It was said years ago except most people doing it use 'bus driver' as a comparison. I'm all for free speech and I'm sure the moderators wouldn't object to a thread criticising all those companies charging for TR's so go ahead, start it up and I'll be one of the first to join in. You seem surprised that RYR come in for so much criticism compared to (say) EZY or others but frankly I find that hard to believe. I'll go with the trolling (if that's what it is) and explain. MOL and his company treat their employees and customers with such utter contempt they attract the loathing of others. Do the other companies paint their aircraft with idiotic messages? Do they hide their costs? Which airline has the most complaints upheld against it for misrepresentation in their advertising? Which CEO refers to his customers as "bastards"? Hope this clarifies. |
Further to Flintstone, who describes his pilots as 'aerosexuals'...:ugh:
Good businessman, bad employer of people who fly his most valuable assets! R1975 |
Ryanair taking off on a Runway long enough for an A340:ooh: Thats got to be a first:ok:
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Kempus,
You are not really getting it are you? Train drivers are professionals who are responsible for the safe conduct of transporting the paying public safely from point A to point B. I know that EWS and Virgin are paying some of their drivers in excess of GBP60,000 p/a (with overtime on top). As qualified professional pilots, we have taken responsibility for the initial training risk to the tune of 45-75,000 pounds. Why is it unreasonable to expect a commercial organisation to accept a training risk after being selected by their own training organisation (interview, sim ride, trick-cylist testing etc)? Two of the most profitable airlines in Europe are at the forefront of charging for type ratings, so the slim profit margins argument doesnt really stand up on that score. Trying to compare pilots with doctors, lawyers or dentists isn't really vaild IMHO. If they f@ck up, the worst they can do is kill one person at a time. It took Harold Shipman 20 years to kill the same number of people that a 737 could kill. Consider the following responsibilities:
My God, you should have some more self respect for what you have achieved & the responsibilities you carry and not baring your arse and bending over to the corporate airline monster. Despite all the soul searching and valid points generated by this and other threads about the rights and wrongs about buying type ratings, its not going to change anything. People have a passion for flying, at least I know I do. Airlines know this and are willing to make (ab)use of this fact. They are abusing their position of power and no one is stopping them. It is valid to be comparing other safety critical professionals like train drivers or nuclear power station control room staff. As far as I am aware they don't need to pay for any training. |
Still don't give a toss Barney.
FR are still expanding: jobs are still available. Other companies are suffering in the recession and others have simply vanished. People have bills to pay: FR pay on time, early at Xmas, and a comfortable sum. Nice people, nice airplanes, home every night, best roster in the business. The guys from baby who will be made redundant would bite your arm off your nice bizjet job but I guess your employer isn't taking on 400+ crews in the next 2 and bit years. The whole issue, in a nutshell, is about security: the guys joining FR and paying for a rating, all cadets incidentally as any DECs are already rated ( and made redundant usually by some other carrier). Their peers who found the plugs pulled from thier holding pools will never catch them up in terms of earnings even accounting for the cost of the TR. 5 years from cadet to command is possible in FR if you are good enough: your hang on and wait for a paid TR, and a huge bond, crew probably won't get a job for 2, maybe 3 years. Then 14 or 15 years RHS before they get a command, whilst your FR cadet has been earning all the time and paying back his training and TR. It is all about practicality. |
You've the best roster in the business? It stinks compared to easyJets 5453.
Nice people? Are you on drugs? WWW |
the guys joining FR and paying for a rating hang on and wait for a paid TR, and a huge bond With "friends" like you TRSS, pilots really do not need enemies. :( |
You know, you lot are never happy.
If FR introduced a bonding scheme you would whinge about that, even tough you aren't in the company. If FR stopped recruiting holders of UK CAA licences you would whinge about that. If they stopped recruiting holders of French DGAC licences etc etc ad nauseam. It is just because you don't like the MOL business plan. WWW, I think that my 5/4 beats my mate's LGW based easyjet 319 captains's roster hands down: I'm not working max duty days in an airline that that skimps on fuel to the extent that if you go around it's a diversion! I'm not under pressure to go into discretion. I don't get snotty emails from management day after day after day. I don't work with CTC or any other TC cadets working for nowt on "contracts" putting FOs out of work. |
Originally Posted by The Real Slim Shady
Still don't give a toss Barney.
You really are a child, aren't you? You made a total @rse of yourself. You're the laughing stock of this thread. No, the forum. Nay, the site. What next? Fingers in the ears and 'Lalalalala, I'm not listening'? http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k8...ns/tantrum.gif Let me guess. You went in to work today and told everyone how the nasty people on a website were being mean to you. One of your fellow ryanistas took you aside and together you hatched a plot to come on here and show them. What you'd do, right? What you'd do (and this will really show them, snigger) is come back on here and write out how great Ryanair are and how well they treat their employees (don't say 'contractors', ok? Otherwise we'll get our 'MOL's Special Person' badges taken away). That was it wasn't it? That's what you did. That's your master plan to reingratiate* yourself with The Pikey and his cronies. It's so obvious we're all laughing again :E Edit: Roster. I'll see your roster and raise you mine. Mine is week on/week off, during a week on I'll work an average of four days. On top of that I get 28 working days leave which also attract 'wraparound' days so if I use five days leave I get nine days off. Work it right and that's 48 days or nearasdammit seven weeks paid leave a year. What shall we talk about next Slim? This is fun. * I may have just invented that word. |
Slim,
Does this really need to be spelt out to you? On second thoughts, no. It is pointless, I would be farting against thunder. You have demonstrated what Ryanair's attitude is, and your antics on this thread has lost your company 12 customers. |
Oh jeez you guys crack me up: 12 customers out of 62 million.
Go pay easy prices. Go pay baby prices. Flintstone, living in the stone age: passed over by airline after airline so takes a job kissing ass, humping bags and serving food and drinks. So sad. Did Ryanair turn you down because you couldn't pass the sim? I'll pass your comments about tax free per diems and your food to HMRC: they can find out who you are and who you work for and when you are in UK airspace. And just for good measure your passengers can pay punitive tax on their charter: you approve of level playing fields, don't you. |
Slim Shandy, you deserve Ryanair and Ryanair deserves you.
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Sooooooo funny, youre all so quick to condemn the guy but youre the ones who took the bait :D
Kids in a playground!!! I dunt fly for Fryinair. |
Fabulous thread!
Slim Shandy, please keep it going, but dont forget to leave 2 mins behind the departing heavy next time. Or is that allowed in 'your' airline? |
Slim,
You have made a prize wally out of yourself. I thought flying taught us all to recognize mistakes, correct where able and mitigate where not - you sunshine just kept on diggin'. Oh how I bet you wish you could rewind time - on this thread I mean, afterall you sound really happy how things have panned out career wise. Still those of us with our self respect intact shouldn't laugh or be at all surprised - afterall foregoing your dignity, generally acting like a mug and sinking to any new low to earn a buck seems to be contagious at Ryanair...... http://i.telegraph.co.uk/telegraph/m...h_1318268i.jpg Good luck all. Brody |
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