easyJet 5/4/5/4
 

Rumours going around that BALPA are close to an agreemeent for 5/4 roster pattern . . .

Anyone heard similar news? :ooh:

Don't hold your breath................

Well it MUST be true then :}

In all honesty , if Ryanair guys ( and gals Clara :rolleyes: ) can have 5/4 with no representation whatsoever, and assumedly still get enough work out of the peeps, what is holding you back ? I am sure your annual/monthly limits will still be easily reached even with that pattern.
I sometimes think the inertia displayed by management over this matter is just petty bitter jealousy ( I work Mon-Fri then only have 2 days off , why should these overpaid lazy primadonnas have 4 ?. . . . I think you probably know the mentality of these "office dwellers", why give them what they want even if it is Ok for us. . . Nah := )

It might well be on the wish list but I can assure you they have not started any such negotiation yet.

Thats never going to happen.

Sorry.

5 on 2 off for those in head office is great but they shouldn't complain about our 5453 or even 5454. Those in the office do 5 normal days (37.5 hours/week). I can't remember the last time I did a 7.5 hour day. More often between 10.5 and 11.5. I recently checked in at 15:55 and checked out at 04:45. And just before Christmas I had to rescue an aircraft, total duty time 24 hours 20 minutes (and yes it was legal before anyone asks) and that was on over day 4 and 5. Can't see many office staff working through the night for a 24 hour day. We need the extra time off for the longer days and unsociable hours. You just couldn't change from lates to earlies with only 2 days off.

And in any case, as we are legally limited on annual hours, what do they want us to do. Come in and just sit in the crew room, knowing that we are out of hours to fly anyway?

And 5454. I can't see our top Dutchman going for that. I asked him outright and he denied it. Good on Balpa if they get it though.

I stand to be corrected, but I simply do not believe that 5/4 is on the agenda at the moment. There has been some talk of 'buying' different packages of employment whereby you can do the 'worst' roster for the most money and then take some sort of salary sacrifice for a better deal. 5/4/5/4 would be a slight gain on 5/3/5/4 and would therefore attract a lower salary. You would then, for example, work your way down to 50%, no weekends or whatever and lose money accordingly. I have no idea how advanced those discussions are, if at all, but it is certainly something I would be looking at if I were a manager trying to entice my workforce towards lower pay. In principle it is actually a potential win-win for everyone and I would not dismiss it out of hand. I shall wait to see what appears...........

Captain Playstation - your probably right but isn't wanabee showing the same twisted mentality towards Office Staff. I'm a 9 to 5 er Mon-Fri. Thats probably why i did 3 hrs on my laptop last night, was at work 0800-1230 today and just about to start on the laptop again. No such thing as a day off in lieu or £ like you Nigels get (bitter n twisted now).
Over a year wannbee you'll be surprised that your hours equat to probably less than a 37.5 week. I personally think the current 5/4/5/3 is the best thing i've seen in my time in the UK Airline Industry. :\

Since I joined my current employer, I've clocked up nearly 1100 duty hours, in 7 months...

Far more than what I was doing in my previous career as 'desk polisher'...

Please feel free not bring any work at home and do extra work for free, your colleagues may be next to be asked to do the same....or consider being more fficient at office :8 (just pulling your leg mate, don't get your blue steel 44...)

...37.5 hours office job?
 

...in some countries you are looking at 42 hrs a week on the "economy" worker level with no hot coffee at FL410 and time to read the news in the cruise...
.."business" level looking at 50+...while "first class" at 70+ with a 6/1 schedule and a pile of todo items on your desk when back on Monday...

...been there, done that...

...and your problem with 5/4/5/3 is ...?

FI

Yeah but the business buddies doing all those hours are probably earning a lot more than us!

I stand corrected! 5/4/5/4 is indeed on the agenda - I will wait until a more definite answer is available. Nonetheless, our union leaders are in negotiation on the subject right now.

Thanks NSF!

I know you are a bit of a guru when it comes to anything Orange related, so was beginning to feel a bit of a fool after your comments the other day. . . . I rarely post on here unless I think it's rumour-worthy, so feel slightly exonerated now . . . :ok:

My initial reaction was that of viking 101... However, if NSF says it may be on the agenda then maybe it is.

My reaction to that is - They (H89) will NEVER be able to manage a schedule/pilot force on different schedules with different duty limitations and different leave entitlements. Hell, they can't even manage it properly the way things are now! My advice, stop negotiating a solution like the one mentioned by NSF (if indeed one is being considered) and demand more efficient scheduling with less waste, ie positioning by air and taxi, and a 5/4/5/4 for all pilots with no attached pay "cuts". THEN we can start talking about pay......pay rise that is.

Oh do be quiet.


WWW

It's ok Clara, you won't get paid anything.

...and DO STOP SHOUTING!!!

..which easy is clara gobbing on about now? It sure isn't the same one I've been a skipper in for 9 years, that's for certain.

......and when's someone gonna properly flush out that H89 stooge FC for keeps?

People of an Orange hue,

Could you please tell me how many times, on average, in your 'blocks of 5' do you get four or five 4-sector days? Last summer was bad I know but how is this winter - quieter, I presume (?) but what are the rumours about the summer?

I think it very much depends on base, but this winter has generally been quieter. Mostly 2 sector days out of my base. I have regularly been in the car on my way home by 10am on some earlies!

a 5454 roster is actually easier to for the rostering team because it is symmetrical. It would also provide sufficient recovery to permit the current some of the current infringements going on. I should imagine that convincing CV may prove difficult as he's not great when faced with common sense. I believe discussions will take place over the next couple of months but as of yet, havn't started.

What do you find hard to believe exactly? Pay negotiations need to be refreshed to address inflationary rises as a minimum, the last pay deal is dead in eight months, don't you believe in inflation?

just to clarify Flying Clara's comments regarding easyJet salaries, I personally do not know a single pilot here earning the amounts quoted. I am a LGW-based Training Captain and in the last 2 months took home £5200 and £4800 respectively. There are other factors in there but those are the real figures for most, if not all, easyJet pilots. I would, however, be delighted to accept a pay rise to the figures suggested!

Sadly Norm, Clara is not far off being accurate - i understand thats what MXP based guys n gals take home on a good month... why do you think the transfer list is so long all of a sudden?!

But why is that sad? The same applies for MAD and Paris.... I wish it would be the same for the UK contract.

Rod - As you will know those figures are not accurate for UK contracts. Funnily enough, I was stuck for a day in MXP a couple of weeks ago and made enquiries about the rumours with a number of MXP-based crews I bumped into. I have to say that no one there was claiming those figures. Apparently there were some captains taking home 8000 Euros - still pretty amazing. There were, however, significant outstanding issues over future taxes in their country of origin and these high figures quoted are essentially tax free. If you are fortunate enough to be able to stave off the attentions of your home tax regime that is all well and good - for most people there will be a day of reckoning and they would be wise to save now! These figures are, alas, an aberration in terms of what easyJet would want to pay, and I think that they will not last. They are certainly not representative of what the majority of easyJet pilots earn - I just wish someone would pay me that for working at Gatwick!

As usual Clara speaks in matters she clearly does not understand. The majority of pilots in easyJet are on UK contracts and will therefore earn nowhere near the numbers mentioned. On the French, Spanish and Italian contract your tax liability very much dictates your net pay, ie weather or not you are married, have children, own property, own property in another country (-ies) then the one you are employed in etc etc. These factors can cut or add literally thousands of euro on your net pay. So to sit here on Pprune and claim that an FO earns this and a Captain earns that is plain stupidity.

Concerning the pay "package". easyJet recorded profit, again, and we should aim not only for a pay rise to cover RPI but one that actually, for once, gives a proper pay rise.

od

OPEN DES - If you work for easyJet then check the transfer list to see where most of the people in the queue are based. This has only partially to do with pay and once again, if you work for easyJet you will know the details. When speaking to most of these guys they have, as you, heard about "the great pay in MXP" but when you start asking them if they are willing to move there or if they have investigated into their personal tax situation the answer is often no....

od

Why is this not being discussed in the easyJet forum? :oh:

Before I get flamed, it's just my opinion. I don't think such things should be discussed on a public forum....

Give it a few months and they'll all be squealing about having to pay tax, just like the guys in SXF.

Storm clouds are gathering over the Euro, don't think that Italy is a one-way bet.

Fifty above - I think you will find that most of the guys who you are referring to as "they'll all be squealing about having to pay tax" are all tax liable today and they have all been tax liable since the "main land" bases opened. This is EU, remember? There is no such thing as "tax free" if employed and living in EU. There is however a difference of WHERE you are liable depending on where you live, are registered etc etc. Once again, depends very much on each individuals situation. Most, not all, would be very happy to have a local contract, and as you say "pay tax" (I assume you mean German contract with German taxes?), as long as the setup would be similar to the Italian, Spanish and French contracts, with a twist to fit local regulations of course.

Do not be so fast to judge people and their situation at different bases etc when it comes to pay and tax. Most of our colleagues just want to get on with the job and get a "reasonable" pay check for the job done. Problem now is that LTN is well aware that the contract and tax situation in SXF is not viable in the long run, but they have chosen to use the "head in the sand" approach to the problem until forced (by the authorities) to deal with it.

This is, for the time being, the most cost effective way to deal with it and leaves the employee with all the legal hassle of sorting out not only tax liability but also issues concerning insurance (to, from and at work) and health insurance.

od

It's sad because she's correct (well, partially correct), it's not sad that the euro contracts pay well!

Mr Angry
You may be an exception, I don't know, but if you do work late in an office you must notice the exodus at "clocking off" time. Nice to be able to work at home sometimes as well, I can't.

Also I actually have no complaints about 5/4/5/3. I quite enjoy it. But if we can do 900 hours per year on 5/4/5/4 or even 4/6/4/9 or whatever, what is the problem there. We did not set the max hours requirement. I am sure that passengers would not like to fly knowing that the pilots have been working excessive hours. I used to work in an office and I did do more hours that I currently do for less days off. But there have been times that I shouldn't have driven home afterwards, and have even made mistakes because I was tired. Fortunately for me, making a mistake because I was tired didn't endanger lives.

And Clara, OMG.

How much do you think pilots are worth. Like any job, we all want more. Nobody would start negotiations with the company by saying "actually we don't want a payrise, we have enough".

True, a lot of the time we sit there reading the paper in the cruise, but sometimes we do have to work hard. Maybe you saw something in the news recently about an airbus, similar to ours, going for a swim. How many dead?
None. All thanks to the professionalism of a great pilot. He probably reads the paper in the cruise as well.

Chesley Sullenberger I think his name was. How much is he worth?

I agree that the easyJet private forum is probably a better place to discuss these things.
There is no such thing as paying no tax when on the Spanish contract. You will always pay your tax in Spain. The salaries in a good month are very close to what Flying Clara said. Flying for Air Europa or Iberia you will be on about the same money.
In Italy and France the same applies. The quoted figures are after having paid tax in Italy/France as a resident. Depending on where you choose to live (and commute) then your tax-situation might be more favourable or less favourable. I have heard about even higher takehomes for Paris based guys who commute to a certain EU country with a (still) very favourable double-tax treaty. (I am very happy for them)
I imagine that local pay is benchmarked against the pay of the local airlines instead of benchmarked against the UK contract (well maybe, if the pound was still worth 1.50).
This has got nothing to do with the SXF/DTM tax issue. (been there, done that). When based in Germany we were using a loophole in European tax legislation. Although fully legal we knew this would not last. I accepted this from the very beginning and decided to move when I started to feel the bratwurst-tax breath in my neck. It's just now that the weak GBP is making life more difficult and uncertain for the SXF guys.
If you like the pay, come and join us here. Or try to negotiate the same. I must also add that the current exchange rate makes the local contracts look very good. It's not unlikely that the GBP will pick up.

sorry for the OT,
but I just want to put some light on wonderfull MXP..

the average take home for a captain is 7500€ (after italian taxes) and for an FO 4800€. Sometime you can go up and down between 3-400 €.

It's after tax and this figures works for italian residents, if somebody is trying to be smart and believe that telling the italian to be resident in some place and then does the same thing for the country of origin, then I KNOW for sure that soon (next tax declaration in Italy) they will have a nice surprise!

The above figures looks very good because some of our pay is tax free, but not for long and if you look into the italian tax system will see that income taxes and social taxes are the second highest in Europe after Belgium.

Then if you take the exchange rate that was used when the contract was developed (1.45€ per £) we were not far off the UK ones..
And don't forget that in Italy there various airlines that are actually paying more than what we take..

NSF if you look at gross salary and take into account the exchange rate of 18 months ago you will see that easy is not giving us more than when we were on the UK contract (actually the fixed part is way less, about 7%) so I really don't think easy will change it, on top of that in Italy I am told regulations forbid to lower salaries if not during troubled times (2 consecutive loss and very little cash in the banks)..


What makes it very interesting now is the fall of the mighty pound, but again if you live in europe you are spending euros so is it really that good?

Speevy

To Brian and all the others who rise to the bait of Clara's posts - read the red writing at the bottom of the page!

Don't really know why you're squabbling about this. It's all there in black and white (and grey and orange) on the easyJet website.

Flying Clara, nothing wrong with trying to improve your lot. That salary isn't really that much if you've got a family to provide for and educate. It would only just about get you a mortgage for a small 2 bedroom flat around here. Pilot's salaries aren't what they once were and we need retain/improve Ts&Cs in any way we can.

Flying Clara,

If as you declare you are just beginning your career, may I politely suggest you are in no position to bandy around numbers of which you have little knowledge, or comment on the needs of those who have been in the business a very long time.

However if as I suspect you are a Hangar 89 Mole, it is greatly in your interest to exaggerate the salaries paid to people who have almost no personal life because of work conditions imposed, and little ability to defend themselves. This public forum is a great place to start sensational if untrue press, and to try to talk down future deserved pay increases.

Is it coincidence that an anagram of Flying Clara is All Cry Fagin? The Workhouse mentality rules OK in your mind it seems!

Luv and Kisses :} SH

Clara,
I've avoided the Clara bashing on here, because I don't know any of the truth of it, but if you genuinely can't see why people would want a pay rise then...well....honestly.

Flying must be just about the most expensive career anyone could choose to take up and frankly there HAS to be a return on investment that makes that worthwhile.

for the sake of demonstration, let's assume a base salary of €10000. At an exchange rate of £1=€1, that's bloody good money in anyones book. Now, how about if we raise that to €2=£1. Hmm, £5k. Suddenly not so good. Now consider the € in better times floated at around €1.5 - £1. Suddenly this doesn't seem so great, especially when NSF, an Easy training Captain suggests your figures are on the optimistic side and even then only for the best bases on a good month

Next, assuming your age profile is correct, you're 25 years old. At 25, £2000 a month DOES seem like a lot of money. Now add five years on...you'll be lucky to get a mortgage for less than £2k a month. Food, bills, fuel, car - it all adds up. Tack on a family for good measure....suddenly you'll realise just how much of a pittance £2k a month actually is for an adult. Now consider you've probably just spent at least £50k getting that licence - and in your case I believe you claim to have done the ATP scheme, so we can fairly safely assume a lot more than that. £2k a month might be ok for someone starting out with zero experience, but it needs to go up quickly or else it's just not worth it. As an example, at the current time, my wife and I (no kids YET- first due in three months) need £3k a month just to live. We're lucky we can do that easily enough, but hopefully you now see that a proper adult life costs a LOT more than you'd do your job for.

NSF - FWIW, I'm freshly qualified, first time passes in everything and I'd happily work for Easy....in the best of climates, it would be high on my list... can you organise it so I swap with Clara in the hold pool please? (well countless letters and online apps haven't realised any opps yet, begging on a forum might...) :ouch:

Flying Clara
 

Just put "her" on the ignore list!