Wally,

I fully understand your thinking, however the fact remains that the pilots will be working for one UK based employer (Brookfield). The Irish Limited company fiasco is a dishonest and false employment status, purely intended to buck the system, at the end of the day it is still one individual working for one UK employer. Also, there is a two way termination notice period in the contract, which is not allowed if one is to be IR35 compliant. Heading off to the Irish tax system to avoid IR35 is tax evasion and if the majority of UK residents/employees did that our country would go bankrupt, that is why such rules exist, to protect our country.

My friend's father has made these issues very clear to us and this investigation is escalating rapidly. I have no idea when they will make their move to the offices of Brookfield, but you can be sure that after they do things will change dramatically. Trouble is we could all be out of work.

As an aside, have you seen the new increased Irish taxes, OUCH!

Cadet

Cadet,

That all makes sense, all I can do in response is to remind you (and me!) that some of my views are personal, and consequently will not appeal to everyone.

Historically, people on Brookfield contracts have been doing all sorts of funky tax things, up to and including not paying tax or declaring residency anywhere. The new system ensures that we will all pay full PAYE in Ireland, closing many of the historical legal and illegal loopholes that have been exploited. I personally think this is a good thing from a social responsibility perspective, although it will cost me dearly compared to the old contract. I believe this is called putting my money where my mouth is, and it is a new experience for me.........

Your point about all monies going to the Irish revenue is valid, but in putting together double taxation treaties between countries, it is fair to assume there will be a balance struck between non-nationals paying tax in-country vs nationals paying tax abroad, and my guess today would be that there are plenty of Irish people paying income tax in the UK and elsewhere, which is now balanced by us paying tax in Ireland.

I do not agree with your assertion that we work for Brookfield. If anything we work for RYR, but given their decision to work with a contractor model they use Brookfields. The relationship is certainly close and involves much smoke and many mirrors, but I would stop well short of considering my position as Brookfield employment.

My bottom line is this - I think Brookfield have decided to use a hammer to crack a nut - the nut being the shoddy compliance of many of it's contract pilots - the hammer being the mandate to use one of 3 accountants to ensure Irish revenue compliance. I know my views don't meet with everyone's approval or agreement, but I for one agree their actions are both measured and appropriate under the circumstances.

Wally.

Wally,

You post very logical opinions.

Like you I have no problem at all with paying my taxes, what I do have great issue with is being dictated to with regard to which country I pay them in. Irish taxes are very high and will get higher in an attempt by the Irish Government to claw back their sick economy at the expense of the average tax payer.

"I personally think this is a good thing from a social responsibility perspective, although it will cost me dearly compared to the old contract."

Agreed, but if Brookfield/Ryanair had genuine concerns about "employees" paying their taxes they would do the real decent thing and put all staff on the books and face up to the legitimate and normal overheads associated with running a business. This scheme has not been put in place because they are ethical, it only exists because the various authorities are on their case and its their last attempt at clinging on to the "self employed" unfair financial advantage that they have against their competitors.

I assure you that the UK tax authorities are going to stop this scam for UK pilots, I have no idea of that timescale though.

Cadet

Guys,

I still struggle to follow this argument to conclusion. Plenty of my IT friends will take contracts for foreign organisations, or multi-nationals operating abroad, and part of the contract stipulation will be to use a local payroll company and to pay tax locally, despite the fact they maintain UK dominciliation.

For this post I will not express any opinions on the rights and wrongs, but I will say that neither RYR, or Brookfield are doing anything new, creative or unprecedented in this matter. Based on that, the rumblings of UK revenue intervention do not logically follow, this is a widespread and long established m/o in the commercial world.

Wally

Wally,

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I would assume that your colleagues were neither forced to pay their taxes overseas nor forced to use one of three firms of accountants, all of whom will charge a substantial 3% of gross earnings :-(

Cadet.

That answers your first question, people are commonly mandated to pay taxes abroad, although I will concede they are only ever asked to pay tax in the country that they are providing the service, which I guess is not strictly the case with us.

Your second question needs a little more thought - no offence intended. We are mandated, by contract, to set up shop in Ireland. You will note in the contract that we are not mandated to use one of the three accountancy firms, despite the several posters on this forum that seem to think that we are! Brookfield could do no more than strongly suggest that we go with their recommendations, and I have not had any correspondence from them that goes beyond this. It certainly could not, and does not, form part of our contract.

It's all a bit of a minefield!!

Wally.

Thanks Wally for clearing that up!

I have no problem with paying my taxes in Ireland. Coming from a country that has the second highest taxes in the world it can't be worse:confused:
The problem as Cadet said was that we where forced to use on of the three firms and to form a company together with three other pilots.

Swinglow,

A kindred spirit! The relief........

I have only a sketchy understanding of the roles and responsibilities of a company Director, but I know enough to realise that it is a position with a degree of personal exposure (and rightly so).

If we are forced to establish companies with an Irish national and 2,3 or 4 other Directors, who we will never meet, I am completely stuck on the implications. I have asked all three firms what would happen if one of the others did something unethical, for example signing a contract with another Irish company to supply goods and services without the knowledge of either the accountants or other Directors. The next day that person falls under a bus (or into a turbine), what happens?

I can answer this from a UK perspective - which is that the other Directors are liable for the contract signed by the first. The problem is that the UK law is about as much use as a chocolate teapot in this case as Ireland is Ireland. The really scary thing about this scenario is that when you ask the nominated accountants the question you get a stumble, a stutter and a silence.

What this thread really needs is an Irish commercial lawyer.

Wally.

What a scary thought.

Don't dismiss this without a little thought! The responsibility could fall straight back to Brookfield as they were the ones who forced this upon us.

Cadet

Swinglow,

That would be nice but please realise that any reciprocating tax agreements between counties does not absolve the individual tax payer from paying the higher rate, your country will ask for the difference due to them each tax year. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but its always better to know in advance.

My friend's father has told him that the visit will probably be within the next two months, so nothing going to happen quickly. He also says that there are some European Human Rights issues with the contract as we are being forced to pay our taxes overseas through a Limited Company that we don't wish to get involved with and with three other people whom we don't know.

Quite sad, but my friend through his father's advice is now considering a complete change of career, having come thus far and invested so much time and money. His father is not happy with the way he is being treated and in very concerned about the long term outlook for the quality of this profession. He obviously has deep concerns about potential reprocussions concerning the legalities of the way this whole affair is set up. I think that he may be cutting his losses and going back to Uni, a good person lost from this profession if he does!

WallyWumpus you are correct in what you say and the situation in Ireland is legally much the same as in the UK I understand it. As you say - in other words proper advice.

I understand that IALPA have got some kind of formal legal or accountancy opinion which is in writing. They say that any BRK contractor can go to IALPA and read it (you don't have to be a member). A friend has told me that it confirms a lot of the concerns which many have already expressed, including the fact that everyone is responsibles for the actions of their fellow directors. I don't know if it is in the document, but it even appears (for example) that if an unhappy partner has a beef with somebody who is a Director (and partner) they could sue the company to protect their fiancial interests. All of the partners would then be responsible for the legal fees associated with extracting themselves from the consequences! And so on.

This is one proposal that has all the signs of being "clever on the hoof", but hoplessly flawed when it comes to the practice.

Hello all,

Is 3% really that bad? I did some maths and discovered that its actullay cheaper than some other companies. They only charge when you ACTUALLY EARN, so having signed up you pay nothing untill you get your first paycheck.

Also this banding about having to pay 300 euro a month is rubbish, in order to pay that you must be taking in 10,000/month and how often is that going to be for cadets??

I worked out that you will pay approx 900 euro for the first year and on average 81euro per month for the first year. The most important thing is that you will not pay anything when you have your month off.

As an example another company that I approached recently quoted 150 euro/month to do the same thing which is for a full 12 months.....

Regards

Nick

- No job security.
- No sick pay.
- No holiday pay.
- No employment rights.
- High Irish taxation system.
- Forced into a Ltd. company with three unknown people.
- No regard for pilot welfare whatsoever.
- No base allocation until end of line training.
- Very poor salary.
- Expensive type rating.
- Pay for own uniform.
- Pay for security pass.
- Pay for car park pass.
- Pay for sim recurrent training.
- Pay for just about everything.

What does all this mean?....Pilots will vote with their feet as soon as the market changes and the tide will then turn for MOL/DD. :ok:

That indeed is true nick14, 3% is less than other companies charge. But who told you that this will cover everything? It certainly is NOT in writing (because nothing is). The real question is: if this "approved!?!" scheme goes wrong who is responsible for paying back tax? The consensus appears to be that it will be the pilot, even if the arrangement and the advice turns out to have been incorrect.

If somebody said "fixed charge 3% and you are indemnified against any future tax costs caused by some aspect of the scheme turning out to be unacceptable to the taxman" - then it would possibly be worth looking at. At the moment, as with so many things Ryanair, you have to step into the firing line and hope that your expectations turn out to be correct (and how many will tell you that that such assumptions are unwise?).

And what happens next year when you have signed up and they then announce that it has turned out to be more expensive to run than expected so the charge is going up to 4.5%? You won't be able to do tiddly squat. Nothing ever changes.

But is this creating a company with 3 unkown others definately the ONLY choice? I have no contract or FAQ's, so I can only ask. Do they actually say that you MUST set up a company with these people and one of their accountants, or is this what they just advise?

Lexico,

It's mandatory and all part of the Brookfield dictatorship methods. Mao Si Tung and Hitler would both have been very proud of DD!

This is going to end in tears, we can't all be wrong. I think that DD generally underestimates the intelligence of the average pilot.

Cadet

They could have enforced this on us instead:

JMK Group UK - Maximising the income of contract workers throughout the UK

Would have been much fairer and safer, but DD probably wouldn't have got his kickback as their not Paddys ;-)

I wonder if he's getting a kickback for reducing the hourly rate for us pilots too?

GOD IT REALLY STINKS!

Cadet,

I believe thats only true if you remain a resident in your home country. But I think that the country you spend more the 185(?) days in counts as the permanent home.

So for exampel if Im based in Spain and spend more the 185 days there I will pay taxes first in Ireland and then Spain will ask for the difference.

This is just what I think and may very well be wrong since my knowledge in European tax laws isn't "top notch"

But I think Lexico is asking the most important question! To form a company together with people you don't know at all in which you yourself can be held accountable for their actions is at least to me quite frightening!

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.
 

Good Grief. Could you be any stupider? These structures that have been created and favourably ruled upon by the Revenue Commissioners are such that FO's who join the scheme will be liable for ZERO % PRSI contributions. That's right, ZERO %. The company you're referring to has invested an enormous amount of time and energy to ensure one outcome, and one outcome alone. To maximise your earnings by minimising your tax liabilities.

Who was it that said if you give a pilot a brick of solid gold, he's whine about the inconvenience of its weight?

Cadet Pilot, you have a lot to say for one so new, but writing from a point of complete ignorance does you no favours. If you really are a cadet, might I suggest focussing on the positive for a moment or two? Your whinging is reminiscent of the bitter and twisted, and though there's no shortage of them in leafy outer reaches of Essex, you'd do well to remember that angry young men invariably become angry old men.

Is that the future you aspire to for yourself?

The 3% charge is also an expense and so is actually reduced after the tax re-work. Also, please don't moan about Ryanair, especially if you are currently in paid flying work. It doesn't help anyone. Post facts please, this way we all benefit. We don't get anything out of hearing how bad you think the industry is.

Cadet Pilot
For once I agree with Leo Hairy Camel.
You are making a rod for your own back here, should you be employed at RYR then I suggest that you go find a convenient rock to hide behind and maintain a very low profile. (If you have a job keep it !!!)
Should you be a Cadet awaiting a course then the above applies more so (They dont have to give you a job after thr rating !!!!)
Biting the hand that feeds you and complaining about your employer and the terms and conditions is a waste of time. You knew what you were getting into when you signed the contract.
If you have not signed up or for that matter been offered a course, find some other forum to post on and let those who have a genuine reason for being here get on with their discussions.
If you are on your way to RYR maybe you should drop off the course and give the place to someone who really wants it, and who is prepared to accept the T&C's

...apart from the first point, he is not that far from the facts, I must say. Even more so if I look at Leo's nervous response...

N1

You seem to be very self opinionated, and that is a very bad CRM quality, pay attention on your next CRM course and you might just leave it a better person and pilot. If you don't wish to hear the open views of anyone other that your self then don't read Pprune, simple eh! I will continue to post anything that I feel I want to, its a free world and open dialogue is healthy.

Yes I am a cadet who has been offered a course and neither you, Brookfield or Ryanair can retract that now, so I will be there. I just hope that there aren't too many self opinionated Captains in Ryanair as that is a real safety issue. I am only doing this to get my first 1000 hours and then I'm going to look for a proper job with real job security.

N1 and ITT, This is what I meant about no job security, make no mistake that if Ryanair wishes to reduce its pilot numbers it will do so easily by just giving us three months notice, no consideration for employment laws, redundancy etc. That's why ultimately I will look for as proper job.

I was at my friend's house yesterday and had a long chat with his dad. I really can't reveal any of the conversation but I can assure you that things will change, the authorities are not happy. Whether the change will be for the better or worse I can't say, but change is somewhere on the horizon. It's out of our hands.

To be frank with you, Cadet:

I believe that the way you are considering whether or not to join RYR (or let yourself into an adventure with Brookfield), is the way should be done be everybody fresh out of school. Pros and cons, listed on a clean sheet of paper, over a glass of good wine, with people, who are close to oneself and give good and honest advice.

I wish that some more of you guys would do it that way, maybe even before all that borrowed money for this beautiful frozen ATPL ticket is already spend on pure hope.

For all the ones who trusted in hope and only in that: In bad times, Leo and his friends have an easy task to suck you in.

Believe me: I say all that AFTER I went through similar pain and I hope I know better now.

N1

Dont forget you also have to pay 21.5% VAT on the 3% that they charge...but they wont tell you that!

Cadet,

You can have your opinions: as many as you like.

When someone asks for them you can espouse them: in the meantime, if by shouting your mouth off you are going to screw over a whole bunch of your colleagues, don't expect to last long on line once they find out who you are.

I suggest that it would be prudent to take the advice of the others and keep your big gob shut, get behind the parapet and stay there!

Oh and stick your tree hugging idea of CRM right up your jacksy: when you have some good hours in the business you can have an a say, until then.....do as those wiser and more experienced souls tell you do. You may just survive your first few years by showing some humility.

God help him if he ever gets online...he'll be ripped apart if he keeps that attitude, CRM or no CRM!!

Bet that you wouldn't say that openly to the instructor on a CRM course, in fear of the company seeing the true person! What does that say about you?

Leo hate to break it to you but we do actually pay PRSI through the new system, so you above post is irrelevant

Nick

Does this mean that I can only speak when I'm invited to? Is this the life that I can expect as a pilot? I thought that type of behaviour has been stamped out of aviation through good CRM procedures, well that's what we were led to believe during the ATPL course.

Smoke and Mirrors
 

Facts, so all we need are facts. O.K. For ease of calculation here are some simple approximations based on a 100,000 unit income -

100,000 – [ 3000 (3%) + 600 (VAT) ] = cost 3,600
Less tax (50%) - half of 3600 = 1,800

Yo dere. Y’ve saved 1,800. Thanks to BRK (part of the Camel Empire - but totally independent, of course).

Now for some Ryanair magic (pay attention to the “smoke and mirrors”). If your salary goes up your costs and tax relief goes up. The more the tax relief the better off you are. Better still, if you take out a pension for, say 10% of your salary, then you will be even better off – 10% - 10,000 and tax relief (50%) = 5,000. Now that makes a total saving of 5,000 + 1,800 = 6,800 (6.8% of your salary!!! Sign up here please…). ONLY through the munificence, kindness, charity and goodwill of Ryanair/Brookfield could such a sum be saved by pilots. Dirty smelly unions actually take your money!! This folks is a NO CONTEST.

Small print: hard though it is to believe in the cool light of day, this line has actually been presented as a serious argument (in fact it is essential to “proving” that BRK pilots will be “better off” under the new arrangement by maximising their pension payments). Of course the “smoke and mirrors comes from the equivalent of the old line “I saved a fortune by spending a lot of money in the sales”, or “the more 'duty free' I buy the more money I save”. Yea, right on.

This is one everyone has to work out for themselves.

Just who is calling who stupid? (See below).
There is absolutely no evidence of this. Some actually deny it is the case. There is NOTHING in writing about any part of this proposal. There are statements, such as yours. But no guarantees and no certainty. The pilot has to go to a sole supplier of this service (for whom you seem to be a willing spokesman). The person named does not have an accountancy qualification. You are forced to go to this supplier.

Err… doest a whiff of smoke not appear here?

And what of their old age pension or social provisions in the event of being made redundant or laid off, etc? It just means they get nothing (if laid off) and less (or no) old age pension. You believe that all social provisions are a version of a communist takeover and that it is actually good not to pay them. (You don’t mention that any arrangement for the pilot not to pay gets rid of the much higher percentage PRSI payment by the employer…. perish the thought that this could be the real motivation for the “ZERO %”!).

Short-term advantage, long-term penalty is what we are really talking about here.

How terribly kind, even considerate. But why did they do so without being asked? Why was it necessary to do it? Why is NOTHING available in writing? Why is so much unclear? Who benefits?

Is this a charitable company? I ask because they seem to want to encourage pilots to make a charitable donation – absolutely true!! It turns out that BRK have a charitable role, as does Ryanair with its scratch cards. Any chance you can explain what this “charitable donation” is all about Leo? I’ll just bet you don’t, or won’t. If ever there was a case for attacking the poster and avoiding the subject this is it! Go to it Leo!!

Who was it who said if you give a pilot a brick of gold painted lead, he’d whine about the rip off and might even ask a few questions?

Translation: the asking of inconvenient or penetrating questions is not welcome in Ryanair, Brookfield or any part of the wider Camel Empire. Learn your place and stay quietly therein. Appreciate that the great and the good smiled upon you when you were permitted to pay handsomely for your type-rating. If not, you can learn what it is to simultaneously have no job and no PRSI payments.

Nod, Nod, Wink, Wink, word to the wise, say no more, know what I mean?

This is Leo in his more obtuse and whimsical state of being - I think he may be concerned that you may end up like him. An uncharacteristic example of Leo showing some empathy? On reflection......... , probably not.

Err … If you or anybody else listens to Leo, there future will be even worse than it seems likely to be. Do your own aspiring and keep asking questions.

Let’s get to the bottom line here.
Listen to Leo. “Big Camel” is looking out for you. “Big Camel” loves you. If “Big Camel” attacks you, it will only be for your own good. “Big Camel” only says bad things about those who want to hurt you. That’s why “Big Camel” engages in this thread – just to help his fellow pilots. Support “Bog Camel” for President and obediently listen to his wisdom. Long live Leo Hairy-Camel, wise, honest and trustworthy spokesman for the Camel Empire!

Cadet

CRM will also tell you to shut the **** up when you can't take no, from your seniors and betters, for an answer.

Now know when the time has come to get behind the parapet and keep you r head down: by going of like some loose cannon inviting the tax authorities ( I was only asking my mate's dad) to burrow into your prospective colleagues tax affairs you are opening up a Pandora's Box of trouble for them, and yourself if they ever find out.

Small business the airline business.

Am I the only person who finds that the advice given by Real Slim Shady above to be questionable? If his advice is to help the poster, it seems to me to be an O.K. comment. But I think the post may mean this - "do not get identified as being somebody whose questions uncover something improper, as you will not be forgiven". All very understandable, but.... If something improper is going on here, that changes things as far as I am concerned. There have been stories for many years that Ryanair tax affairs are "a murky area". (But then there are lots of stories). However if there really is something going on the WE ALL need it to be sorted out.

If it is true that one of the reasons that Ryanair pilots declare themselves to be "very happy" from time to time is because tax is not being paid as it should, then this is dragging down the conditions and pay of everyone else because Ryanair has special cost advantages. So, Mr Shady can you confirm if you support 100% upfront transparancy for Ryanair pilot tax affairs, or if you are saying nobody should 'rock the boat' by asking questions?

You're missing the whole point here, I have nothing whatsoever to worry about as my concerns have been solely about ensuring that I will be tax compliant, not at risk of wrong doings from my fellow company directors and that I'm not being ripped off by extortionate Irish taxes. So, there's no impending Pandora's box of trouble for me, I must say though that you seem terribly concerned about the tax authorities investigating the Brookfield affairs. What should I conclude from that?

NO, I WILL NOT SHUT UP JUST BECAUSE YOU DON'T LIKE WHAT I SAY.

Having now read back over the postings in this thread I think that there are a few Majors, Generals and even the Brigadier himself who are posting in disguise here. They have adopted a divide and conquer technique which sadly appears to be working. For all those who are genuinely part of the front line troops in this brigade, please let's stick together with no bickering and get to the bottom of this sordid affair, which after all was created by said hierarchy.

Boy, consider the situation: tax evasion is a crime, tax avoidance, however, is not only legitimate, but you, your little clown Cadet, and the man on the Clapham omnibus, would claim every possible expense you could to minimize your tax bill IF you could get away with it.

If you, or any other newly qualified frozen ATPL, could set the cost of training, and other expenses, against tax ( tax avoidance) I'm 100% certain that you, and they, would.

If certain pilots, regardless of where they work have discovered, or been led to, a tax solution which legitimately allows them to minimize their tax liability, it does not fall to your knight in shining armour Cadet, still wet behind the ears, to shake the tax man dragon by the tail and point him in the general direction of investigating said loophole.

As the present incumbents of Govt are so fond of telling us "It is within the rules": that being so, Cadet is doing no one any favours by flagging up this up to the taxman, not himself or his colleagues.!

He can carry on shouting his big mouth off until someone discovers he was the culprit who closed the loophole when he suddenly find his working life becomes unpleasant.

Ask yourself how you would feel if someone demanding to exercise their "rights" doubled your tax bill?

And for the avoidance doubt I'm a UK taxpayer.

Hi,


Being tax compliant is simple, chat to an accountant look at what your estimated earnings are going to be and simply save for your yearly tax contribution not hard!!
I am on the old BRK contract and have just sorted my accounts and have come in above board, thanks to my accountant and the fact that I’ve worked out a decent way to live and survive. So why now change it now..... Something is not right.

Your posts are very valid and helpful to your new cadets, but you are speaking in a rather rude and nasty terms to fellow colleagues because they are, were all pilots here some experienced more than others. You are entitled to your opinion but CRM is also about putting your opinion cross in calm and collective manner, not going in all guns blazing.

Get 1,000hrs and sod off elsewhere....explain where in this market please.

You are going into an airline where you will fly with different captains, from many back grounds and varying experience. You will have to learn to adapt and listen to pilots who are self opionated and guess what you’re going to have to sit back and deal with it. Because they are in every single airline from BA to a small charter company.

Good luck on your TR course I hope you do succeed.

It is a shame to get pilots who come to Ryanair and do not give a crap about it and all they can see is the fact they can get 1000hrs quickly and bugger off elsewhere, you complain about the T&C’s and you know what, they are this low because guys like you think you will be gone before it gets any worse and would never effect you so why worry!!!! This is why we are in this mess and right now going around singing how you only want 1,000hrs and then off to better pastures will go down quicker than the titanic. You need to be a company pilot but above all a pilot who is there for his and her colleagues. Be it guys and girls who have been there for 10 minutes or 10 years.

Words of advice, and help

Best wishes

edited due to spelling :ugh:

Cadet
I have to agree with what people are saying about you !!!
Especially Real Slim Shady, Night_Fr8 and adwjenk.
As to CRM maybe you should have listened more closely when you were in the lectures and not give your inexperienced comments to pilots who have been in this industry for many years, even before you were a twinkle in your father's eye.
When you learn the real meaning of CRM you will be able to comment from a position of strength, not as a complete ninny.
As I am not a RYR employee, I shall not have the chance to write your training report, but there are many on this forum who are.
So take advice and "Wind Your Neck In" before you find that the money you or Daddy is paying out has been wasted by failing the course.
You have not yet moved out of the nappy stage in this industry, and should keep a low profile, until you get those 1000 hours.
Even with 1000 hours on type there will be few employers out there who will even look at you, let alone give you a job interview.
Experience counts and you have "NONE" and unless your careful you may not get any.
The ability to pay for the RYR course does not guarantee you a job, you must reach the grade in ALL aspects to pass that hurdle.

Leo Leo Leo Leo
 

Leo, I'm surprised at you "Stupider" now come on ,you can do better.
Too much studying the pretentious Latin and not enough attention paid in the English classroom . Mal Mal mal.