I cant stress this enough

Having looked into this,all i can say is the 'admin' fee every month is outrageous,VAT fees also.Im sure these firms earn nice interest on monies hitting there account from BRK before they 'sort it all out' and then give monies to you.

Vague information all round really.Charge max for min service is the order of the day here.These guys are NOT experienced in dealing with pilots.Advice about what you can and cant claim for is non existent

I dont know for sure,but as iv said golden handshakes to BRK i think,for the increase in business

They have said they will pay us on the day that they recieve the invoice amount. If they stick to what they have said then they wouldn't earn any interest I would imagin.

Dont believe everything you are told...it can take up to six days!! So your payment on the 12th becomes the 18th. Nice little earner.

Whistle Blower:

You say that a pilot who works for no-one else but BRK, and is not allowed to by contract, is therefore in fact an employee of BRK. I agree and seems clear enough. I have worked for companies that used the 11 month rule. You were employed for 11 months, then layed off, no pay, for 1 month and re-hired. OK it was 15 years ago and EU rules might have changed. The big difference was you were employed and all taxes paid etc. In your month off you were free to do as you wished. You were not self=employed. You earned holiday during the 11 months and could take it in that period, or start your month off early.

Now, about this 'month off' imposed by BRK. It seems they are restricting your right to work, which as a self-employed indiviual in the EU, is against the rules. What is your suggestion to those snarled in this trap? It does seem as if much of their contract is worthless, but no doubt if you resist you will find there is no work offerd.

Is this contractual obligation about being a LTD company paying contributions to Ireland and using these cartel accountants also an imposition on non-UK based pilots? If not perhaps it is because they know those pilots are outside the gaze of the UKIR. Hm?

You started the thread to try and highlight apparent dubious tactics by BRK. Highlighting a problem is easy, offering solutions is more difficult but necessary to make the whole process constructive.

Hello Whistleblower:

You are correct, I have not worked for FR, but aren't we all in this business because we love to fly?

If you are so upset with Brookfield, why not take your skills and wisdom elsewhere...or don't you have the ability or qualifications to do so...please add some details to your profile to qualify your comments and Brookfield bashing...

Also, if it is bad as you say, Brookfield is not the culprit...FR is...so direct your venom where it belongs...:ugh::ugh::ugh:

The main problem at Brookfield is Declan Dooney.

I know not of any other person that is as difficult to deal with as this man. He lies and continuously fails to deliver on promises, but then what can you expect from someone who has come from the 'Ryanair School of Management'.
It is impossible to get an answer for anything, from anyone in the office, without it being passed through 'The GateKeeper' first.

I have no doubts that like you have said before, Brookfield were a pleasure to deal with on other contracts that were nothing to do with Ryanair.

The main and only solution to make sure that you are working within the rules of HMRC is to contact them. Be open and honest with them and they will help you and give you free advice. They run free events for people who are self employed and Ltd companies, and they will explain everything you need or want to know.
If you go to them and ask for help, and they see that you have not been operating quite as you should have, you will find they will help you to correct mistakes and will not take action against you. On the other hand, should you go it alone and make mistakes, submit incorrect information, you can end up in a whole world of problems.
My advice is make an appointment to see a Tax Inspector at your local Tax Office, and they will tell you everything you NEED to know, and believe me, it won't be anything like what Brookfield say it should be.

The other thing I suggest, is join BALPA or similar organisation in your country. They will offer free and impartial advice, and explain exactly what is going on from their's and other's passed experience. They also have access to employment lawers and information that would cost huge amounts if you were to do it by yourself.
And with regards to Balpa, if you are still training, then it is free to join and no membership costs. Once you are qualified with the licence in your hand, £24 Per Year!! Don't foget, you don't start earning until you have completed base training, and even then it is only 0.5% of your gross salary. When you think about it, this is less then £200 for a GROSS salary of £40,000. FO at Ryanair doesn't earn that because sector pay is not included. And you can claim tax relief on that as well!! There really is no reason to not join, if only for the legal protection they offer you as a pilot.

www.balpa.org/RyanairPetition.aspx

Brookfield Pilots can show support too. Please do because as you can see by the post stating the NEW PAY RATES, the reduction in Brookfield Pilot pay has started.

Wow, interesting thread. Glad I am not employed that way.

Could I hazard a guess though whistle_blower, that, unless your petition is organised through an organization called BALAP, your link might not work?

Good luck with your petition though

An employee work under a contract of services and a self employed contractor works under a contract for services. The posts are correct in that to all purposes the brookfield pilots are employees of brookfield and to a greater extent ryanair.

However most economies grow using a flexible work force which is where contractors come in. In Ireland contracting is acceptable and most of the large multinationals such as Intel and Wyeth who employ thousands of people use a significant number of contactors. The Dublin Airport Authority even uses them.

In the UK IR35 was brought in becuase of IT consultants who were taking the mickey in relation to the expenses they were claiming and the small amount of tax they were paying dispite the fact that they were creaming it in the pre 2000 "milenium bug" days. As a result the amount of expenses that a contractor can claim are restricted.

Brookfield are insisting on a limited company because they have probably got legal advice that if the contractor is an employee of his own company then he can't be their employee and therefore can continue to act as a contractor and Brookfield will never have to pay holiday pay, sick pay, redundancy etc. etc.

Outside of aviation most contractors will only get paid if they can prove that they are tax compliant. Brookfield are just following suit.


In relation to paying tax in ireland and in the UK under the double tax treaty how it works is;

as an employee you will have your taxes deducted and paid from your salary in Ireland. At the end of the year you will receive a P60 form confirming your gross pay and tax deducted. You would then give this to your local tax office in the UK and they will calculate how much tax you owe based on the income you received and then give you credit for any tax already paid in Ireland. You will then need to pay the difference to your local tax office.

Pension contributions in Ireland attract very nice tax relief and you could end up paying very little tax here in Ireland. The pension contributions may not be recognised in the UK so you will end up paying a considerable amount of tax in the UK also.

For instance an FO earning €70k pays €20k into a pension and his tax is calculated on a reduced salary of €50k here in Ireland. However th Inland Revenue will calculate the tax due on a salary of €70k and you will end up paying tax at the higher rate on the €20k in the UK.

Gobnet
 

Thank you so much for this information.

As a famous quote states;
Brookfield want you to take the Blue pill. Do as they say and just live in blissful ignorance.
The fact that you are here reading all of this shows that you want to take the Red pill.

One thing that i did notice in the new contract.

Clause 8. Variation
The terms of this Contract may be varied in writing by mutual agreement between the parties.

There should be no reason why you, as the 'AESP', can not state who your Ltd company will have it's accounts done by , and where you choose to register your company.

The right of subsitution Clause 1c, is certainly interesting. I am not sure how they can ever show that would work, because if you as an AESP sent someone else to fly a Ryanair plane and didnt tell anyone, then there would be massive implications. However this clause must be in the contract for legal reasons. I bet it can not, and will not ever be used or allowed.

I have to say, I am blown away by the fact these guys were told to register thier accountant as a director, and like Gobnet said, the 3 pilot salaries would be paid into the accountant's bank account is unbelievable. There is nothing to stop one person removing all the funds in one go.
People still think that everything in Brookfield seems to be fine.

Just out of interest, I am guessing that Brookfield are still using a PO Box as thier company address. Seems strange don't you think that the agency that employs you doesn't want you to know where they actually are?
As anyone met any of the people at Brookfield face to face?

And, to the best of my knowledge, he is not qualified as an accountant. Beware.

All pilots in RYR are involved in this.
 

http://www.balpa.org/RyanairPetition.aspx

This is quite frankly a very frightening situation. :\

Not only do you now not have employee rights in RYR but you are giving someone who you have never really met or trusted in your life the keys to your bank account who just happens to work for an accountancy firm who do business with BRK.

I'm sorry to say this, but do you see how absurd this seems! This is an absolutely crazy situation. Can you tell me any other place where you would let your contract customer or client effectively have access to your bank account and any changes to your current contract without your control?

Can you imagine any other company in the world doing business for someone and then letting their client access to the bank account and the terms of the contract for what they are working?

This is absolute madness.

Gobnet have you contacted the Institute of Chartered Accountants in Ireland or the Revenue service on what RYR management and BRK are trying here? Do the UK HMRC or FSA know? This is just craziness!! :suspect::suspect:

Brookfield pilots! You are as important as RYR full time employees. If you want to be BRK you should be allowed to be under normal contract terms. If you were forced into BRK you should have the choice of a full time RYR contract or not and one not just given to try and ruin any BALPA campaign push for rights for all RYR and BRK pilots. Please for all RYR pilots and please for yourselves wake up and fill out the BALPA petition for your long term futures across the whole industry before it is slowly but intentionally destroyed. These people have nobodies interest at heart apart from their own personal gain. Here is the petition once again:

http://www.balpa.org/RyanairPetition.aspx

I found out last night who the three firms are. Anyone involved in contracting in Ireland would be familiar with two of them and the third is McNamara. I recevied a few more enquiries yesterday from BRK pilots who do not want to use any of the three "recomended" firms and have agreed to force the issue on their behalf today.

I'll let you know if I make any progress.

I'm surprised a reputable pilot with accountancy skills hasn't gone ahead and started advertising their services to Brookfield guys. My accountant in the UK is very above board, and a decent chap to deal with. I have a Ltd company, pay my taxes and my NI, and everyone is happy.

Horgy

Mr Horgy,

One of them did. I think he was told that if he kept doing it he would loose his contract, that was when he asked me to look after his affairs.

Balpa takes charge.
 

Always wanted to know what DD looked like! Thanks.

Not to mention that if one of the directors get divorced, then his/her ex can come after the company and take YOUR money!!!!!!!!!

Or if one of the company members drops dead, you guessed it, the contents of the Will may include his/her family members getting half of YOUR money!!!!!!!!

Or one of the directors may leave the company but refuse to resign as a director,,,,, bloody hell the list goes on and on.............................

As Brookfield is a UK company there is little the Irish authorities can do so they will be going after Ryanair. From speaking with Revenue they are also practical people and know that Ryanair will oppose moves to make all pilots full time employees. Even if they do decide to challenge the airline you are looking at a three year period before the matter will be resolved.

Therefore for the moment they want to ensure that all of the contractor pilots are registered and paying some tax. Being a contractor doesn't have to be all bad. In most cases the after tax take home pay of a contractor will be higher than an employee because of the greater flexibility and entitlements in relation to allowable expenses etc.

Am I missing something here? Why did IALPA put fellow pilots in possible harms way with the tax people by raising a big stink for?

Hello there,

just for curiosity, which salary can you expect as a cadet "net" on average? I find the system on ppjn quite intransparent to really say what is in your pocket once you've finished your Type Rating with Ryanair.
Of course the pay differs for all the different periods, like >500h or >1500h or even in the first 6 months. I don't know exactly.
Would be nice to see a definite figure.

Another question, does Ryanair support any loans for the Type Rating costs? Or do you have to come up with those nearly 30,000€ ?

Thanks in advance, much appreciated!

No idea on net salary as it depends on how much you claim on your expenses and is so variable. I did some maths and came out with 30,000 euro gross for first 11months.

All training and licence costs are the cadets responsibility, if you want more information use the search there is loads of info on the company etc.

Nick

White Eagle,

The timing of the payment of your type rating costs will have a major bearing on your tax bill. In some cases it is a tax allowable expense but in other cases it is not.

The irish revenue have a note issued on the subject.

Obviously if you can arrange for the costs to be allowable you will not pay any tax in your first year if your earnings are under around €45k.

Nick, Gobnet,

thank you for your replies and information! :ok:

All the taxation stuff seems complicated, especially when time is tight regarding all the studies. May I contact you as personal tax adviser, Gobnet? ;)

Cheers

I'm not advertising my wares here. I'm just passing on information that I have. Do you shoot every messenger that comes along.


The case as it stands is that the tax office want all of the pilots contracted to Ryanair, through brookfield, to be registered for, and paying tax.


I am not advertising my wares here for two reasons, one is that the forum is not here for whoreing, I'll buy advertising space ont he site if I want to push my business

To keep hairy camel happy I'll stop posting information.

Yeah,gobnet,publish your details as the camel would like, so ryanair management can set their legal team on you to stop you from informing ryanair pilots as to their legal rights and entitlements,and woe betide you may prevent "declan the liar" from getting his kickback.If you do not pay tax when supposed to,you are a criminal and that is how you should be treated.end of.

I Think you are providing good measured info and F@@k lhc and his ilk.Keep posting!!!

no doubt,we will be reading some latinised bull!!!! from lhc by days end.eh brutus!!!

Gobnet, don't listen to that idiot. I find your posts informative and helpful and would like you to keep us updated on the taxation situation as mentioned in one of your previous posts.

Posted on 9th April Back so soon LEO ? .......

Guess you couldn't just stay away could you ?

i guess Leo has been called on emergency meetings with management to work out the next lies...

Brookfield Pilots Tuc Survey
 

I hear that the lastest intentions from our friendly Brookfield is to get up to strength on new cadets on the new contract, then they will send ALL pilots on the current 'higher rate' contract thier notice of contract termination. At this point, they will be offered the new contract, (the lower rate contract). Guess what the options will be.
Walk, or take a lower pay rate. I wonder what most people will do. Sounds like the good old 'School Of Ryanair' coming back into play!

www.tuc.org.uk/agencyworksurvey

Hmm I dont think you guys get it??? Tax is only half the story....... :=

Keeping a close eye on this thread, it's rather interesting.

So... if the pilots are illegally forced to sign up with one of these rogue accountancy firms, and pay up to 300 euros per month... are they going to be illegally forced to team up with two other pilots and an accountant and open up a company? Or is there another way to do it?

Seems all tricksy to me my precious!!!

This scam is coming to an end soon!
 

My Friend's father is a very senior UK tax official and has been concerned about the legalities of the Brookfield contract that we have both been offered. He has put a lot of research into this matter so far and confirmed recently to us that the authorities have opened up an official investigation which he thinks will bring to an end this dreadful scam. I can't be more specific at this time, but I will post information here as and when I get it. What I can tell you is that the investigation will be centred around not conforming to IR35, follow this link: HM Revenue & Customs: IR35 - Countering Avoidance in the Provision of Personal Services Also, you can contact them confidentially, follow this link: HM Revenue & Customs:IR35 - Assistance/Free advice available The more people who speak to them the stronger their case will be. It really is going to end, and FR/Brookfield will soon have to "employ" pilots and pay the relevant UK employer's taxes etc.

The noose tightens indeed. Already in France at MRS the contractors were moved out/put on Ryanair contracts a year ago, and now, the UK. There seems also to be a fair amount of recent interest by the Irish authorities to ensure the contractors operating there are "tax compliant".
As you say, this nice little earner (for DD) and money saver (for RYR) is about to dry up. Apart from those who have been "creative" with taxation, it is difficult to see too many tears being shed by the pilot body (many of whom, particularly Cadets, only ended up as "contractors":hmm: by default.)

Lets hope this does indeed follow through. It's about damn time also I believe. I'm not a knowledgable person regarding tax issues, I can admit that, but it doesnt take a knowledgable person to see there is a leg missing in this body of lies. :ugh:

First of all some info about me. I will start my type rating with RYR during this fall. I'm from Sweden where the market is deader then dead (heard it before;)). So I'm of course glad to have been offered a place on a RYR type rating. I know about most of the other bad things working for RYR and have accepted it after some hard thinking. But this new contract flips the coin once again....

What should I do about this new contract? I haven't read it myself, will probably get it with very little time left until type rating start so they think I will accept it in panic.

Say I end up based outside the UK or Ireland, can they really force me as an Swedish national to start a company in Ireland?? From earlier posts I understand that no where in the contract it states that you must use one of the three firms?

I have no knowledge about Irish or UK tax laws, where should I look for advice?

I guess the risk is that BRK will see me as an troublemaker and simply no longer offer me a contract at all.

I sincerely apologize for just adding more complaints to this forum (and spelling mistakes;)), it was not my intention. I just wanted some advice about whom I can turn to..

Thanks Gobnet for your thoughts on the subject!
/ Swing low

Every day a new Fool
 

After reading threats for many Years now about RYR....it is the same as it was with McDonalds years ago: Everyone complaint about them and they still opened the Doors every morning and the House is full, now so full that they have to keep it open 24/7.

MOL and his conglomerates find a new Fool every day. Just think about that: They have some shiny Airplanes parked and will add a few more to the parking lot because there would nobody come to fly them anymore? The conditions will be going up as the Irish say and all will be grant..... until the parking lot is empty again and it starts allover again.

Aviation was once a glorious Industry and the People where proud on what they did and who they where. I know alot of Fathers and Mothers who do not want theire Children following theire footsteps anymore. It was diffrent in the 70`s and 80`s. Since the 90`s it changed.

I just talked with some Crew members from Southwest who where with them more then two decades and they also seen the best time gone down the drain. Quo vadis ?

Fly safe and land happy

NG

Still is... as long as you keep it in its proper perspective... stay out of the politics, accept job/company for what it is, be in a where you can walk away from the job/hobby without fincancial woes, and a alternative plan in place.

Best plan yet... meet a partner who can support you in a manner you want to be accustomed to.:ok:

Tax
 

Swinglow,

As far as I understand from my own investigation, the issue you need to look at is double taxation and taxation treaties. Many European countries have an arrangement by which they undertake not to charge citizens tax twice. In my case, I am a UK resident, but having paid all of my taxes in Ireland, I will not be asked to pay any further tax at home - so I am only taxed once.

My advice to you is to ring the Swedish revenue and ask them for their views on your case.

To answer your other questions on the Irish set-up, I could not nail my balls to the flagpole on this one, but my impression is that the contract we are asked to sign with the mandatory Irish company is absolutely legal. The mandate to use one of the three companies I am not so sure about, but who is going to rock the boat.

Having had my contract for about 3 weeks now, I have given this matter a lot of thought, as far as could. I have also spoken to accountant and solicitor friends. I realise that my views do not match those of everyone else, but I have come to the decision that the "ethics" of what RYR are trying to achieve with this new contract do sit pretty well with me. Had this contract change not been made, I would have run my pilot affairs through my existing off-shore (Channel Island) company, and would have paid a lot less tax. I have surprised myself a little by concluding perhaps it is time to step up and pay my share.

Wally.

Tax avoidance
 

Wally,

There are many dubious aspects to this new contract.

The main one which affects you, me and any other UK based, domiciled pilot is this:
1. We are not IR35 compliant, check out the criteria.
2. It is illegal to class oneself as self employed if you live in the UK, work for a UK registered company (Brookfield) and have only one "employer".
3. You are being forced to pay your taxes outside the UK as a means of avoiding IR35 criteria and therefore UK taxes.

The tax authorities are investigating this at a very high level and this practise will be stopped sometime soon. What will happen to us after that is uncertain, but at least we'll be legal.

Cadet,

I think I understand your point, but if you are right it means I have misunderstood IR35 (which is very possible).

IR35 was the legislation that stopped my IT contracting nearly 10 years ago. It was designed to stop people working, to all intents and purposes, full-time for a single company from minimising their tax bill through a number of long-standing loopholes. The UK revenue introduced IR35 to close many of these and to increase the number of people paying full PAYE UK tax.

The current Brookfield's contract requirement (Irish company and approved accountants) seeks to force people into the Irish revenue PAYE system as though we were full-time employees. I need to understand what problem the UK revenue would have with this, it means the Irish revenue are making us do what IR35 would make us do if we were paying tax in the UK.

Wally