Brookfield pay for Ryanair cadets?
 

Hi - does anyone know what the block hour rate of pay is for Ryanair cadets who have just finished line training and are sent to Dublin on a Brookfield contract?

I've seen the rate of 85 euros per hour quoted for more experienced FO's on other threads, but is this the rate also for cadets who have 200 hours plus their line training hours?

Thanks
RBA194

Nope that rate is for guys and gals with more than 1500 hrs JAR25 time. You will be on 60euros (less than 500hrs JAR25) an hr minus 4euro 50 which goes toward your sim biannually. So you'll be on 55.50 an hr. Not bad as it used to be 40.50 for co-pilots of that experience up to last month:eek: You will fly between 80 - 100 hrs per mth in Dublin as well so happy days. Best of luck

If you are away from base (Dublin) you will get extra money - I believe its an extra 20 euros!

The only bit of advice I would give you is read your training contract, particularly if it says anything about penalties if you refuse a position with ryan air. remember if your contract only refers to a position with ryanair and you are only offered a brookfield contract, then you are not being offered a ryanair position, correct?

Do work out what you will gross for your 900 odd hours on the brookfield and any tie ins. If you were retained (ie ryr contract) at STN you would be on a basic i think of about 13,000GBP before tax and about 900GBP per month tax paid of sector pay(going up to 1800 per month after 6 months) which seems like better money to me!

It may be that you have other options as a type rated 737 pilot with a couple of hundred hours on type. All I am saying is that don't just blindly accept what is offered.....

I don" t think so, 55.5€*80=4440€ a month against 1800GBP a month....
But without tax that s true

Based Cadet, DUB: Euro 55,50 per scheduled block hour (psbh)
Non-based Cadet, sent to DUB: 75,50 Euro psbh

After 500 hrs JAR25, add 20 Euro, flat, psbh.
After 1500 hrs JAR25, add another 5 Euro, psbh.

So, after 1,5-2 years you'll average (75x100) 7500 Euro per month.
A perfect month would be just above 11k. ('cause scheduled hrs are more than actual, so flying the max 100, you probably get paid for 110..)

Scheduled more than actual ??? !!!

Where are u flying to / from !!!


:}

Maybe i'm wrong here,but I think as a contractor in RYR you get payed for scheduled blockhr. So if you're scheduled 10hrs one day and you does it in eg 9.5hrs,you still get payed for 10hrs.At the end of the month you've been chasing the speed-of-sound,flying 100hrs and got payed for 110.
sad sad sad

Interesting reading indeed. I'm going to join RYR myself as well, and the way things are looking I'm expecting DUB as Brookfield contractor. I'm a cadet going for the 737 TR Self Sponsored.

Being non UK resident I'm very curious about how you should handle the finances. The way I've understood the situation, Brookfield pays no social fees at all, meaning YOU yourself is responsible for paying taxes and other government fees.

Is it a good idea to become a sole trader in Ireland? How are those of you already on this scheme handling the finances?

And now for the ultimate question: can the self sponsored TR of €28,500 in some way be compensated via tax deductions for a sole trader?

There are many contractors within FR that choose to pay nothing in taxes. This is foolish as all the Revenue need to do is to ask Brookfield or FR for a list of contractors and voila they can start hunting you down.

As to how much and where you pay tax you need professional advice from an accountant with experience in the aviation sector. Many factors will need to be taken into account:-

- your residency for tax purposes which can be influenced by where you live & whether you maintain a property elsewhere

- if you set up a company then where will it be based eg: IOM, Channel Islands etc.

Its a very complicated area and from speaking with guys I know in the industry and particularly within FR many people bury their heads in the sand. They might get away with it in the short term but it could just as easily go pear shaped.

Irish Tax
 

Disclaimer: I am a college student. Not a qualified accountant in any way. Do not rely on the following. it is just something i thought may be of some help to you if you are unfamiliar with the Irish tax system.

If you are based in DUB or SNN you are likely to be irish resident.

To check if you are so resident you look at whether you satisfy the following tests:

1. Are you resident in the country for 30 days or more in the tax year, if so go to test two.
2. Are you resident in the country for 183 days or more in the tax year, if so you are resident in that tax year. If not:
3. Are you resident in the country for an aggregate of 280 days or more in the tax year and preceding tax year, if so you are resident.

You are resident in the country on a day if present in the state at midnight on that day.

So if you are flying for FR based out of Dub or Snn on 5on 4 off or whatever you work you are bound to be caught by the residency rules. Which means you are liable for income tax- you need to consider your domicile now- which is a legal term. But at a very high level you may assume this is your country you are born in.

So if Irish resident and irish domiciled(working based in dub/snn and born in ireland) taxed on your worldwide income. Every cent you earn, be it employment income, dividends, rent anything.

If say, Irish resident but UK domiciled, (say an english born person working for FR out of DUB/SNN) you are liable to irish income tax on the remittance basis. this means you are liable to irish income tax on any income arising in ireland or the UK and income remitted to ireland from outside of ireland and the uk. which means income earned from your flying will be liable to irish tax.


For people considering whether to set up as a sole trader/contractor type arrangement I'd advise consulting a tax expert but I can't imagine you can make it work.

Revenue consider such factors as:
1. Terms of the contract, i.e if it provides for sick pay, holiday pay, pension entitlements, you are likely to be an employee.

2. Degree of integration of the person into the organization to which you are providing services. If you're working 5 on 4 off you're pretty much very well integrated.

3. Whether you provide your own helpers? If you do, likely self employed, if not, employee.

4. Whether you provide your own equipment. You FR guys sound like you do, bar the aircraft!

5. The degree of control exercised over the individual. I think this is an important test. Basically I'm presuming Fr give you a roster of what flights you are to operate and you are not free to pick and choose the days you want to work and that in effect, you are an employee as they 'control' you rather than engage you from time to time as a contractor.

6. the degree of responsibility for investment and management. (that falls on you in your 'self employed trade') not likely to be much if FR are your only contract.

7. degree of financial risk taken. (in running your trade, probably huge in getting an fATPL then TR then working as a cadet on buttons for 6 months as seems to be the case)

8. The opportunity for you to profit from sound management. (i think you'd fall down here too because basically not matter how well you manage your trade all you're going to get is what Brookfields pay you per hour.)

Obviously it's up to the Revenue to decide whether you are an employee or a self employed/Company. But then in company you have a surcharge on closely held companies, you need to pay yourself a dividend and that's income liable to income tax after having been liable to corporation tax.

I'd recomment seeking the advice of an accountant.

Brookfields contracts may be constructed specifically for tax reasons but then the revenue are likely to look for substance over form. I'd gamble that were they to look at it, Revenue would deem most to be employees and liable to irish income tax.

If people aren't declaring tax, under declaring they could get burned down the line. Interest and penalties accrue from when the tax should have been paid. So even if your caught 10 years later, it could be quite punitive. Usually in tax settlemtns interest and penalties far outweight the original tax liability.

I think it's best to be honest. By all means do your best to minimise your liability, but stay within the confines of the law. Seek professional advice.

An hour or two with a good tax accountant would be money well spent if it saves you tax off your bill, or prevents you getting burned later.

It's a bit like getting the class 1 before you train.

Hello,

The pay for a BRK less than 500h on type and non DUB based is 60-4.5€/h?
Thanks

Pit

slightly off the subject of this thread, but what are the chances of shifting bases with ryan air? I understand that at the mo, cadets are being put on a brookfields contract after finishing line training and being based in dublin, right? What are the chances of switching bases from dublin a few months down the line, to say stansted, or luton?

or do you have to be based at dublin if u are on a brookfields?

Also, anyone got any idea wot u get if they give u a ryanair contract after line training? What bases might they send u to if that occurs?

Well put Vin Diesel.
All you contractor fools who think they are super-clever and on a "great deal", you're gonna get done eventually. The UK revenue are already looking too close for your comfort. Then when you're coughing up all the unpaid taxes, you can reflect on how you managed to not only screw yourself, but also your profession, career and future. Micko's laughing at you. Why not tell him to shove it, maintain your dignity, self-respect and future prospects?
And spare me the sanctimonious "i have no choice" crap. Of course you have a choice, so make a conscious choice to preserve your future.

Yeah Alex, clearly as you don't agree me, I must be very challenged :rolleyes:
The most challenged however are those who think they can avoid paying any tax on a brookfield contract.

taxes
 

Apologies didnt really read through and hadnt realised u were talking about people not paying taxes :ugh:. Thought u were talking about people taking a brookfield contract in general, which in my opinion is not that bad of a deal.

I do agree that the people not paying taxes will eventually screw themselves over, although there are several legal loop holes that one can use to save money on a self employed contract. Several costs (petrol, cell phone etc) that would usually not be tax free may be claimed as being involved in your profession and hence the tax paid on these items may be claimed back at the end of the financial year.

Not really 100% morally correct... but definately very convinient and legal.

In reality the Brookfield deal is not that great.

and

It'll probably remain unchanged for the next 5 years like the previous BK deal. So effectively reduces due to inflation.

The only way to improve conditions at FR, is to fight for a permanent contract, and make a stand. All contract pilots based in Ireland are entitled to permanent contracts.

Absolutely right. However, a large amount of fr pilots have either no concept of reality or deny it to the end.

Bang on. Once this one fact sinks in to every fr pilot, change will happen so fast you'll be dizzy.

Tax and Death, you can't avoid them.
 

As has been mentioned elsewhere, there are ways of reducing, slightly, your liability to taxes by registering as a limited company. However, the fact that you are a national of one country, employed by a company with its headquaters in another country and working in a third country, even if you are a resident of yet another country, you are liable for tax. There is no escape. If you have been working under such a regime for any length of time believing that you have been getting away with it then prepare yourselves for a shock. Brookfield and other agencies have been recently investigated and the storm troopers of the Customs and Excise are gathering.
It is only a matter of time.
The penalties for evading tax can amount to more then the unpaid tax. There is no appeal.
I speak from experience. I too thought I was being oh so clever by doing just that. I am still paying the arrears, twelve years later.
No matter where you look for a legal loophole, you will not find one. Non-domiciled, non-resident, legal alien, non-EU citizen; forget them.
Where you earn the majority of your income is where you MUST pay your taxes. This is the EU law and I am afraid we are working and operating within the EU. If RYR or Brookfield try to tell you differently then they are misleading you.

When do you know?
 

When do you find out which contract you'll be offered, is it made clear before you start or mentioned in the training contract and are there any factors that determine whether you are offered Ryanair or Brookfield?

€€€
 

quote: "In reality the Brookfield deal is not that great"

I have calculated the net profit for a cadet entering RYR on the self funded type rating, used 800 hrs x year has an avg, €15000 gross income during line training, the latest paydeals on both RYR contracts and brookfield & 2007-08 income tax in IRELAND and the UK.

1. net income after 20 months from base training assuming 3months on the training contract and then a RYR contract based in STANSTED: €58809,96

2. net income after 20 months from base training assuming 3months on training contract and then a BROOKFIELD contract based in DUBLIN: €72866.27


difference between the two: €14056.31

I know some of you may not be coming from the cadet scheme but I am and having a €30000 loan to pay off, brookfield seems to be a much better deal.
If there's anything I'm missing of why Brookfield is not a better deal please
explain me why...

Alex.

Yes,

what taxes have you paid out of your brookfield earnings?

:hmm:

€€€
 

normal irish income tax on the entire amount of the brookfield hourly pay... for the ryanair contract, UK tax on the salary + no tax on the sector pay...

alex.

Alex,how many euros per hr did you calculate you're brk income with?
As far as i know there is 3 different payscale depending on how many hrs Jar25 you have when you start.
<500=55,50euro psbh
500-1500=75,50euro psbh
>1500=80,50euro psbh
(i've taken 4,50e for the sim)

I dont get how you calculated irish tax on the brookfield contract.
You will become resident in Ireland, if dub based.

Best to throw up your detailed calcs so people knowledgeable of Irish taxes can opine. Also why do it over 20 months? If you want to compare apples with apples then do it over 12 months and that will give you a better idea of the competitiveness of FR's pay to other operators using say PPJN for arguments sake as a guide.

Just to keep things simple

Over 12 months

Brookfield

800 hours x €80.5 pbh = €64,400

Permanent Employee

Basic Salary €38,000 Sector Pay Taxed Equivalent €36,000 = €74,000
the above FR sector is based on doing 600 hours.

This is how I've worked it out, and for me to be better off on a Brookfield Contract I'd need to work the 900 hours max and become a tax evader.

Both of the above will decrease over time due to inflation, and the never ending dirty tricks by the high pay airline. It might seem like good money to a school leaver, but by the time school is a fond memory, you'll be on less than the above.

In five years time it'll still be 80.5 an hour, and if the industry slumps at all, kiss goodbye to any pay review.

Can only suggest you appeal to become permanent.

It's better to be part of the solution ...............................

€€€
 

To vector3:

To calculate the brookfield part here's what I did:

Used an avg of 800 hrs a year.

With this in mind I used for the first 3 months, a gross salary of €15000 for the line training.

After the LPC we jump to €55,50 per hour since <500hrs... time period on this salary around 6.5 months (using the 800hrs a year)...

Then as soon as 500 hrs are reached but with less than 1500hrs we pass on €65,50 an hour and so on...

I used 20 months so that I wouldn't get into a senior first officer pay scale, since after 20 months one should be just below 1500hrs.

For the Brookfield taxation, I averaged what was made the first year, and applied IRISH taxes, and then for the next 8 months and applied taxes over that period of time.

For the RYR contracts, I used what is written on ppjn.com regarding increase of pay scale and sector pay. In this case I applied UK taxation. Same concept as above.

If anyone wants the excel program I made I would be more than happy to send it.

Alex.

€€€
 

for easymoney: I don't know how you are making €36000 a year out of sector pay when the avg for a captain in stansted is around £1400 a month which works out to be €25000 a year... in any case...
we are obviously talking about two different situations, you on one hand, are a qualified first officer I, on the other, am a low houred cadet entering on the self funded TR. Given my conditions Brookfield is a better deal in terms of money... and if the company wants people like me to go onto a brookfield contract it is quite logical for it to be that way.

for everyone else asking me what taxes I used on the brookfield contract...

I worked out how much money I made in a year (using the different pay scales depending on the hours accumulated), then found a tax calculator from the irish gov website.
This is the website:
http://www.hookhead.com/Tools/tax2007.jsp

the calculation I have made does not take into account certain tax costs you may be able to claim back at the end of the financial year since you are on a self employed contract. Hence the figure is on the negative side, another reason why I still don't understand why it is such a bad economic deal. :ugh:

Alex.

Easym is correct.Average sectorpay in uk is approx 1600£=2400euros p/month.=28800euros p/y.So when he's making it easy and talking about gross,you have to add the tax on the sectorpay which then comes up to 36000euros.So i think it's not that big difference being on brk or ryr contract.But...the main piont here is the future working for ryr.So i suggest all new cadets to take a look on www.repaweb.org and then will understand why ryr wan't most of the new pilots on brk contract.

MOL has said many times that he wants a significant percentage of his work force (think it might have been as high as 60% quoted) on contract. Firstly it transfers all of the administration hassles to the contractor (no PAYE/administration etc for FR to worry about). Secondly it means that downsizing can occur at a moments notice without the costs of redundancy nor having to abide by various labour laws. It also makes it much harder for the individual pilots to group together and try to improve their T&C's since their is often a difference between the various contracts in circulation. At Dublin in particular bringing in contractors was a tactical move to get back at the permanent pilots that held MOL over a barrel for their conversion courses from the 200 to the 800. It also served to destabilise their efforts in forming a union.

Whilst the Brookfield contract may appear on the face of it to be reasonable you need to factor in that one day the phone might not go and your services are no longer required. The other benefits that aren't included in your remuneration have been discussed ad nauseum and it really is down to the individual to "price" them into the equation and see if what is offered on the table stacks up.

Exactly.....the 36k comes from working out the sector which is into the hand, tax paid. And remember this is for working 600 hours.

A much simpler way to look at it. FR want more contractors, therefore you must be getting paid less.

Either way, both the Brookfield and the FR contract is well below par. Go to the yellow pages and phone up a plumber and ask how much he charges per hour.

Suppose there's no point in arguing about who has the greater pay, as most new cadets will not have a choice anyway. They will be forced onto a Brookfield contract and more than likely will be sent to Dub.

Might be a better idea to compare who earns more, an EZY FO or an FR FO.

No prize for getting the right answer here.

And how did EZY achieve far superior conditions......By having a permanent and united pilot workforce. If 40% of EZY pilot's were contractors, well they'd still be in the gutter along with the FR pilots.

Does anyone have any idea (and please, responsible answers) of the IAA's attitude to an airline, which is expanding massively, having so many non-employed pilots? Contractors are usually used for short-term tactical demands, seasonal peaks, sudden unforseen pilot shortages. The use of BRK seems to be strategic.

Are there any other examples, in the EU, of such usage on such a large scale %? And what about other industries? Are there comparisons?

The IAA don't care. And that is the responsible answer.
If this was happening across all industries in Europe, there would be social breakdown in short order. Most employees in other industries are not stupid enough to put up with such behaviour, nor are most other pilots. For some reason ryanair pilots are unique in their ability to absorb !!!!e :{:ugh:

...
 

yea camel i'm sure that's the answer why ryanair manages to work the way it does, it specifically selects self sadistic pilots that love when pain is inflicted to them, don't wanna get paid much, like to work 4 sectors a day and enjoy being treated like !!!!e by management... and oh yea, they also love being tied to their beds by their gfs and whipped when they get back home in the evening... wtf.:yuk:

Don't like to be called stupid... there's probably better reasons why ryanairs workforce hasn't unionised yet... possible reasons:
1. management makes it hard by dealing individually with their pilots or through brookfield
2. a majority of the pilots at the moment are not quite unhappy enough (if unhappy) to go through the trouble of going against the company

ragarding IAA: it is obvious that ryanair has a strong influence on the IAA (and not only), and what exactly has this got to do with anything? according to the IAA's website its mission statment is:
"The Board and Staff of the Irish Aviation Authority are committed to providing efficient and cost-effective safety regulation of the Irish aviation industry and to providing, on a sound commercial basis, safe, efficient and cost-effective air navigation services, which meet the needs of our customers."

doesn't seem to me that protecting ryanairs pilots is included in the IAA's roles...
the day ryanair is making it's pilots so unhappy that a unionasition will be necessary it will happen. And hopefully soon so we'll get paid more... but I doubt it.

Alex.

Hi Alex
I guess you're new to ryanair, so all is still rosy. You owe it to yourself, and to your new profession, to establish the facts however. Start by joining REPA then IALPA/BALPA as appropriate. If nothing else, think of it as (very cheap) professional insurance. You insure your car, so insuring your profession makes eminent sense.
Anyway, just a few points (you're better off on repaweb if you want to really learn stuff):

I'm afraid this is how it is though. Your pay may seem great to you know, but it's the worst 737 pay in Western Europe. And it won't be getting better without a real union. See what happened at Easy.
If you haven't yet been treated !!!!e by management, lucky for you, but that day is coming sure as night follows day. Talk to your colleagues. Better than sticking your head in the sand.

This is everything, and why is so obvious I'm not going to go into it.
How can you say that an airline having a strong influence on its supposedly independent safety regulator is ok???? :eek:
I suggest you refer to the many threads on repaweb to learn just how little protection you have from the IAA.

Not directly. But ensuring that ryr pilots are able to focus on the job without financial, fatigue worries etc is very much with the safety remit of the regulator.
The also do allow for direct undercutting of the pilots by allowing a massive number of connies and validating licences from anywhere in the world. Contract work undermines the T&C's of the entire profession. That's the bottom line. Why do you think MOL loves contractors? If they get paid more than permanent pilots, d'you really think there'd be so many?

Once that doubt it removed across the company, change will happen quicker than you could possibly imagine. Their weapon is doubt, ours is belief. The pilots will win eventually, when depends solely on when we believe we can. See ya on repaweb.
And finally remember, you have but one ally in this profession, it aint the company, it aint the IAA, its your union, so get joining.

Can I suggest that all you contract pilots read the thread regarding tax and easyjet in Germany?
It is also wrong to say that it doesn't matter where you pay tax. You are obliged to pay tax in the country where you derive the majority of your income. Essentially, that means that if you work on a contract for Ryanair or Easyjet and are based in Rome or Bergamo or Hahn or Berlin then you must register with the tax office where you work. It makes no difference if you are English, French or whatever.
Avoiding tax is a fraught and dangerous past-time.

Wrong.

you pay taxes in the country of residence and if there is no bilateral agreement between the 2 countries, you end up paying again taxes in the country of your employer.
In that situation, there is no other choice than to evade taxes as your primary concern should be the financial heath of your family...

If there is a bilateral agreement, you only pay taxes in the country of your employer (for FR, Ireland).

This is one greay area in EU legislation that really hurts pilots and is simply ridiculous. For an airline pilot working abroad, it is often IMPOSSIBLE to be completely legal concerning taxes.

By the way, I paid a very large amount of money for my education, where all other educations in my country are being paid by the government. The exuse of "you knew that before you started" is totally invalid as there is still freedom of education in this part of Europe. That same government does not allow me to even partly claim back this investment by to tax-return. If I would be paying my taxes in my home-country, I would simply be bankrupt.

despeque, don't simply write the word 'wrong' simply because you hope I am wrong. Do some research. You will be found out and you will pay the unpaid tax, the penalty and maybe a fine, no matter what you think.
The bilateral agreement means that you will not pay tax in BOTH countries, only in one. The agreement means that the country where you are from/born/previously worked, relinquishes the right to tax you, as you are no longer resident, on the understanding that you pay tax in the country where you now live and work. It most certainly does not mean that you are exempt from paying tax somewhere! No-one is.
It does not state, nor can you interpret it any other way, that if your employer is in one country and you are living and working in another, maybe paid by an agency or even to you as a limited company that you need not pay tax somewhere.
I say again, it is your responsibility to inform the local tax office of your emplyment, wherever you work, wherever your employer is based.
The excuse of ignorance of the law is not a defense. Try it when you get caught in the net. It does not work. Trust me!
The most sensible thing for you and all the others in a similar situation is to get an accountant and register for tax, soon.
I am very touched by your story about how much money you have spent on your education and training, as will be the tax authorities similarly touched. Sorry, you have to pay, just like everyone else. Sympathy doesn't reduce your tax bill though.
As I wrote elsewhere:
There is a very easy way to tell if you are liable for tax.
Ask yourself this simple question; am I happy for the tax authorities in the country where I now live and work to know all about my financial arrangements?
If you answer NO, then you are breaking the law in that country.
It really is that simple.............get real

Rubik,

I'll give you a simple situation, encountered by most contractors:

1) you fly for an airline based in Iceland
2) your contract is with an agency based in the UK
3) your Base is Germany, and you live there most of the time.
4) your official residence is Holland, where your wife and children also live and work.

You will find that ALL 4 countries mentionned might want to collect taxes, not just "part" but their complete percentage of your salary.

Do not call me ignorant, I know through experience.

Welcome to Europe.

If the EU wants contractors to pay taxes "comme-il-faut", then THEY should start simplifying the rules and create one rule instead of relying on the various states to decide what to implement. Until then, no contractor should nor will want to pay up in the current conditions.

Am I a rebel, most certainly so, I also refuse to wear a jellow-jacket during daylight:}. Maybe another thing that is shocking to some...