americans at cityjet
 

how come the IAA lets americans fly for cityjet, so allowing american pilots( nothing against american pilots ) take european jobs away from european pilots and yet the american government (FAA) wont let europeans do the same in the states. smacks of backhanders somewhere. it wouldnt happan in air france would it.JAR my a?2e:yuk: :=

Aer Arann has Americans with FAA liscences, Columbians with ICAO licences flying in the ROI with dispensations from the IAA.... NO WAY could a JAA holder go fly in the US !!

My friend I don't want to be flip or arguementative, but I must ask are you serious?! There are a lot of foreign born pilots flying for US carriers, major airlines and regionals alike! For that matter Atlas air has a whole slew of JAA pilots flying N registered A/C as Capts!!

Seriously, how hard is it to get a converted rating?! JAA to FAA seems a much easier time than FAA to JAA.

Not trying to flame or troll just curious as to the issue?

Its very simple. SUPPLY & DEMAND. Lots of pilots believe that airlines OWE them a job because they have done the training. Airlines are a BUSINESS not a CLUB! There are no fair rules. They take experianced FAA guys who have thousands of hrs because they speak english, have the experiance, and dont need to be trained. It makes PERFECT sense from a business point of view if you happen to own an airline. ANY JAA country can validate an ICAO license, its not just FAA, Transport Canada, CASA...its any recognised (mainly english speaking ICAO country). The icleandics do it constantly for Air Atlanta, they are JAA too. By the way JAA is toss because the non-english EU countries will not hires brits/paddies unless they are fluent in their language (even though ICAO language is english) and even then it is rare! SO, lets face it, UK hires everyone from the EU because they like to be politically correct, while the french and germans laugh at them. We irish would rather see a paddy in the cockpit of course, but a yank, cannuck, saffir, auzzie, kiwi is more than acceptable if he/she has the airline experiance and doesnt need to be trainned. Is it fair on johnny local...no, but life is not fair. By the way, I got a job in the States first time round and NOBODY said a thing that i was taking a job away from the locals! Its just not an issue. Im not a citizen, merely a greencard holder.
I wonder if you would be so uppity if a hong kong citizen who flew for cathay or dragon air got or say a local from dubai who flew for emirites got a contract/validation...doubt it! I know they take plenty of forgeiners, so why shouldnt we????? Or could it be that deep down you just dont like americans?
The FAA does not need to validate ICAO licenses because there are thousands of pilots here from all over the world. The SUPPLY far exceeds the Demand, therefore no need to change anything...its really very simple. Although there is a new rule with transport canada where each side (US or Canada) need only do the Air Law portion of their respective countries ATP/L and a new one is issued, based on that (an faa atp or a transpot canada ATPL).

Seriously, how hard is it to get a converted rating?! JAA to FAA seems a much easier time than FAA to JAA.

This is because It's generally easier to get an FAA licence. To covert mine, for the exams, all I had to do was sit in front of a computer and answer a number of questions for which I had previously seen the answers. It's a bit different in JAR land.

its the airline experience that counts, not the type of license. And airline training is damn tough in any first word country let alone the crowded airspace in the states with the biggest airports and heavest traffic. It not as if some bloke is turning up with a bare license and getting a job. :ugh:

"JAA is toss because the non-english EU countries will not hires brits/paddies unless they are fluent in their language (even though ICAO language is english) and even then it is rare! SO, lets face it, UK hires everyone from the EU because they like to be politically correct, while the french and germans laugh at them"


Where is written that english is the ICAO/OACI language ?

If the english speaker are not employed in the no english speaking countries,is not because pilots are americans , brits, kiwis or ozzies, but because they don t speak the local language.

I am not a native english speaker, ( some says i have a rubbish english) and can t take a job in Germany.

So , in JAA land you need to speak, for almost , the local language to get the job.

In contrast in the USA, you need to be resident (green card holder) to have the right to work. It is not the same situation as the US pilots in Cityjet.

English IS the official flying language....every pilot knows that:ok: Its in ICAO.

that should not be the case! If you have a JAA license you should be able to work in any JAA country in the EU no matter what language you speak! that was supposed to be the point, but it never works for english speaking guys. Forgeiners can come and work in UK and irish airlines once they have a JAA license but the same wont happen if a brit or paddy goes to france or germany or italy :ugh: I dont really care, those countires are just being protectionist, while we are stupid and politically correct. thats just the way the world is.

- thats a very childish and ignorant view of the way things work. You just hate americans but dont have the guts to admit it.
I notice you dont single out aussies or kiwis that work on validations...just americans. They reason non-americans or non-green card holders cant work in america as pilots is because they have soooo many pilots there they dont need any more. In ireland there are only some many ATR-42 type rated pilots and even fewer with a few thousands hrs of experiance...even less on the BAe-146. Most kids get their JAA type rating on a 737 or A320. Again....supply and demand. DO you understand yet?:ugh:

A good friend of mine is english and he is flying in Portugal, but he speaks portuguese You just need to speak the local language.
And no english is not the OACI language :=
RD

why not look at the real source of the matter??
 

that is the IAA!!! at least in this thread's subject matter.
do you think the americans are forcing the IAA to do something they don't want to do?

it may actually be more a matter of american aviation being in the !!!!es for so long, (president carter at the helm) that american pilots have been forced to look all over the world for jobs for quite some time now and are desparate enough to move further than other european pilots. in the US, if you don't work, it isn't long before you start sleeping outside under the trees. we don't have the social protection that most european countries have. so we soon get to the point to where we have to fly anywhere we can find a job.
but the fact is, the IAA, in this case, chooses to grant the validations.
i'm an american, and i have found it difficult to get a decent paying job in the US myself!!!

now that i'm in the UK, i seldom fly with UK first officers!!! funny that!!!
and the gaggle of brazilian pilots that you will now find everywhere---
when i was in korea, there were loads of mexican pilots flying for asiana!!!!
when i was in belgium, there were germans, english, irish, aussies, scots--the lot!!! and that is when they invented the JAA licence!!!
so once again, this thread is evidence of another short-sighted pilot, who has hit some hard times, and yet will not look far enough back in recent history to see that this difficulty is not new at all.
but after all is said and done, it is the respective country's Aviation Authority, and the individual companies.
not the language, nor the pilots.

Nobody in here blames the US pilot but the Irish authority and gvnt to allow that.

:ok:

your friend is the exception to the rule. I never said it cant happen, its just rare!

And no you are wrong my friend, english IS the ICAO language. How do you not know this??? I thought you were a pilot? Why do you think asian conutries force all their pilots to learn english. Why do you think german pilots etc etc have to learn english to fly. Maybe things are a bit different down in old portugal. But look it up in a book or even google it, English is most definately the official flying language.:ok:
-
riiiiiight!......as opposed to iceland who validates forgein licenses? Dubai? Hong Kong? India? china, korea, many asian countries etc etc. Do you know anything about flying or are u just a disgruntled wannabe who cant get a job?

Don't get wound up guys our good friend chlong is on the long hard road to getting that first job. It will take him some time but he will soon realise that the only person stopping him from getting that job is himself. It certainly isn't any Americans at Cityjet nor Irish at BA nor Aussies/kiwis at Cathay or any other combination you could come up with.

cork lad
 

The languages for ICAO are English, French, Spanish and Russian, suggest you look at www.icao.int. All ICAO docs are published in all 4.

Yes this is correct; however you must READ IN BETWEEN THE LINES.
For example. ATC can speak his native language to native pilots but he MUST be able to speak ENGLISH to ALL pilots. Thats is in the ICAO regs!
Similarly, all pilots who fly internationally must be able to speak ENGLISH to communicate to ATC but DO NOT have to speak the native tounge of the country that the ATC happens to be located in (unless english is the native tounge...eg new zealand). Therefore, logically speaking, english is indeed the international flying language. It may take a few seconds for it to sink in, but im sure you'll get it eventually:ok:

Corklad is right - it's in the ATPL theory

A pilot must be able to communicate in English for the purposes of ATC

"riiiiiight!......as opposed to iceland who validates forgein licenses? Dubai? Hong Kong? India? china, korea, many asian countries etc etc. Do you know anything about flying or are u just a disgruntled wannabe who cant get a job?"

No my friend I am employed, by the way down here in Portugal the ATC talk to you in english :ugh:

Not so long time ago, about 15 years, in the ex USSR (and the communists country in Europe) , the ATC spoke russian to the pilots.:ok:

For this reason there is not an unique language in the OACI.Perhaps in 50 years from now the pilots ll talk chinese.;)

"so its even worse than we thought. what hope have the rest of us europeans if the irish aviation authority are allowed to get away with this. where is JAA when you need them. this is a scandal that should be exposed. maybe some paper will take this up. wouldnt mind if there was a resiprical agreement but no the american government dictating again. so as well as taking most of our training money they now take our jobs as well."

Did somebody put a gun to your head and make the U.S. "take your trainig money"?

I dont think you understand...or just dont get it. read above again untill it sinks in. :8

Americans at City Jet
 

We seem to have lost sight of Ryanair. Thankfully we have a ready supply of type rated people well versed in the busiest airspace in the world, aka North America.
And yes, l am taking the pee.
As we all know, there is no commercial pressure in the world of aviation.

So you think a Human factors test and a sim session is hard, I think NOT. :ugh: Now getting the right to work in the UK is a bit of a hurdle. :cool:

The key thing to remember is that BAe 146 rated pilots are like golddust nowadays. Check the number of contract jobs up for grabs on the quadrapuff and you will get a feeling for why BAe 146 operators are so short of crew!

DOJ -

Cry me a river. US airlines will NEVER hire Europeans w/o greencard/US passport/ self sponsored workpermit and will never hire those individuals without a FAA CPL/ATP....

I am more then happy to see Americans coming to Europe, but you will never see a US airline sponsor Europeans to come work for them and they will never validate their European licenses.

And should I, as a flying Froggy, resign from my lovely Irish airline because I am taking an Irish job..??
So good for the Yanks, so good for IAA, maybe are they opening a door ?
Pretty soon we should see an open sky upon the pond, 80000 jobs to be created, maybe then US carriers will ask for foreigners to fly their tinboxes. (am I dreaming :p )

what is all the fuss about?, Both sets of exams you get the answers to, the only the jaa you have to remember more. As to the foreign pilots issue you want to work in america get sponsored simple as that and of course memorise fewer answers!!!! There you have it!!!!! Hakuna matata!!!:ugh:

IAA & Americans
 

The JAA & IAA have definetly sold us out. Irish and English guys have by far the hardest time getting jobs because there is too many of us and our jobs are been offered to everyone else. America and Europe close the door to us but we invite them in willingly. Thats why all these 250hr can barely fly a duchess guys have to pay Ryanair and alike 30k for a type ratin. We pay the most for training and to what end?

If you European and other foreigner pilots can't see that, your ignorant! The IAA sold us out, so did the other EU members and as for the rest of the world why should they care.

I agree, i think it is disgusting to see all these young EU pilots here with no job, when US citizen steal our jobs and with minimum effort with the help of some corrupted governmental offices(trahison!!!).

For years airlines didn't give us job and we had no way to make our own experience, now they are short of crew, so they hire US citizen who are in my point of view illegal in Europe but apparently suddenly legal in Ireland.

they come here to look for a job(sim and interview i presume), when in the USA you can be deported if you say you are looking for a job in the USA.
(and be banned for 10 years if they find you to fly there.)

the results is: low experienced guys applying in some crappy airlines like ryanair ,lowering the condition and making the situation harder for everyone in this business.
Not only we have no job, or we have to survive with some miserably paid jobs, but our retirement is affected, our life is affected, and one day the whole system goes down.

US citizen, please go home!there are many jobs at your local Wal-Mart!

Dartagnan - you don't have a monopoly on talking through your arse, but this isn't the first time you have embarassed yourself on this subject on prune.

The world does not owe you a living, and your anger at it not owing you a living does not entitle you to call the IAA corrupt. It's your choice to do an ATPL with a 50% chance of getting a commercial pilot's job, and it's the IAA's choice to allow validations for experienced Captains on aircraft types where there are no such people with a JAA licence available. There is ZERO connnection between those 2 choices.

yeah, my ass :mad:

It is full of unfrozen atpl FOs and jobless captains in europe ! There is no need to contract US citizen to steal european jobs !

Americans with US passport and FAA licences GO HOME !!! :ok:

Dartagnan is completely right !

Guillaume

There are far more Irish citizens working for US carriers than there are US citizens working for Irish operators.

An Irish or British person has a better chance of winning the green card lottery than getting a job with the large French or German carriers etc

I agree, but a US airline will never hire Europeans and sponsor them for their greencard.
As far as "go home" . Give me a break. The airlines don't owe you a job just because you got ur JAA license! It's all about the money. If they can get type rated people with time on type they will. Sucks to be you in that case, but that is how this game works
Plenty of Europeans working Stateside. (altough again, the airlines didnt help them getting their legal paperwork to work stateside)

Guess what, guys - NO airline in the US of A sponsors ANYBODY! We all built our time flying sh## boxes or F-16s until the big jet job came around. We have all nationalities at my airline - even an ex portagee fighter jock. All they had to do was win the green card lottery or marry some chick who thought their accent was cute.

Don't understand
 

I've worked for FAR9 & 121 carriers that have employed Brits, don't see the hassle, get yer paperwork & status inorder then you've a chance, if you can't be bothered, then don't bitch!

Yes it's pretty simple as most have pointed out. Cityjet are hiring type rated pilots to fly their 146's. It so happens that they are American. If the Turks or Chinese or the Aussies had plenty of surplus type rated pilots they would be hired too.
There is no unfairness, Cityjet is not a charity. It's a business. All airlines prefer type rated, experienced pilots. The only reason they take on low time non rated pilots is frankly because there aren't enough type rated pilots to go around. The IAA's job is to help ensure Cityjet stays in business by facilitating them.
As for criticising American airlines for not sponsoring pilots from abroad. Well why would they? Their mailboxes are crammed with resumes from appropriately experienced American and green carded pilots already. Why on earth would they need to trawl Europe for pilots? If there was ever a shortage of pilots in the US, you can be quite sure they would be holding recruitment seminars all over Europe.
It's also worth pointing out that the reason there are so many continental Europeans working for Irish and British carriers is because it's tough to get jobs in continental Europe even for the locals. On the other hand the British and Irish carriers take 'foreigners' because they need them. Ryanair of course being the classic example. In fact Ryanair only take type rated pilots if you think about it.

The airline business and aviation in general is and was always very international in it's employment policies. I think some people new to the business really don't realise this. Otherwise they wouldn't be making some of the stupid statements we see here.

Just for the record, you do not need a Green Card to work in the United States. What you do need is an L1 visa and you need to have a qualification that is attractive to the airline concerned. I flew for a Part 121 carrier for 3 years and nobody seemed to resent my presence in the USA.

I also worked in Europe for 6 years and I was very far from being the only Brit working there.

Aviation is a global business and the sooner that some of the hotheads on this forum get to realise that the better.

thanks god ONLY irish CAA is doing that and I understand that only aer aran, cityjet and ryanair do hire non european pilots ! it is absolutaly scandalous, but the good news is that we can be sure that british CAA, spanish CAA, french CAA, dutch CAA, italian CAA, portugeese CAA, and all the other european CAAs will NEVER EVER hire you guys, beacuse they are fair, they have enough european pilots and they dont need americans !! :D
so American mates your only future in europe is Cityjet, aer arann or Ryanair, that 's all and :mad: you and go back home :yuk: !!

Guillaume.

you are a dumbass

1) all your points are wrong.
2) You havent a clue about how the REAL world works
3) You are a disgruntled wannabe
4) You are anti-american (only bitch about yanks but nobody else)
5) You are no doubt a hypocrite, I bet you a million bucks you'd take a job at emirites in the morning if offered one. All you would have to do is get a validation, you dont need a citizenship...oh and you'd be taking a job from a local.
GROW UP and act like an adult! and not a :mad: :{ :{ :{ :{ baby!
OH and its not the IAA's job to provide airline jobs to fixed wing pilots. Their job is to keep the airlines and aviation related sectors in business, thus providing the money to help keep their own employees hired.

riiiiiiiiiight! what would you know about that. get a life! Ireland will look afer itself and other european countries can do the same. Ireland isnt here for your benifit just because you can't get an airline job. we dont owe europe anything. By the way I notice you dont moan at iceland for handing out validations either. I guess some where along the line ryanair turned you down and now you have a big chip on your sholder against the irish/iaa and americans. looser!

haha..what a child!:D
by the way america is a fantastic country, not as good as ireland, but a million times better than where you are from.:ok: