I have posted this on another thread but think it appropriate here too. The head of HR for Flybe told me that they prefer low houred (ie 'frozen' ATPL's) to NOT have a TR for the Q400. They want to put you through their own course as you will adopt their SOP's from the start.

This is a reducing bond of £13k too I believe.

Camel Toe
"Over Macho Grande?"

I completely agree that a bond is more than reasonable, but I disagree that it is anyone other than pilots that set the trend. If nobody was willing to pay for a TR, Airlines would have to provide them, albeit with a subsequent bond. Unfortunately, some people are so desperate to get an airline job, that they will take on even more debt (normally) to pay for a TR themselves.

I find this sad, what next, work for nothing for 12 months? I'd rather stack shelves than be taken advantage of.

200 hrs in a big jet??
 

One thing is that the TRI's prefer young guys because that makes their lives easier in the simulators.
On the other hand, I have spoken to a lot of Captains about this, and they all preferred EXPERIENCED F/O's as that makes the Captains life more easy on the line when things sometimes get a bit rough.

And to be honest, experience is not so much about learning the SOP's. Everybody can learn that, some faster than others. It is about being able to make the right decisions on the right times, based on knowledge and experience. That is what the pax and costumers are paying for !!!

Just my penny ;)

BraceBrace,

it's not fair of you to jump to those sorts of conclusions because standards vary whatever the background.

The TRI's you refer to may be able to explain things a little easier to ab-intio's but that certainly doesn't indicate they'll be any safer pilots once they're on the line. Prior flight experience does feature in the equation too you know!

Able, but enquiring individuals with good CRM skills is what's actually required, and that applies to left or right hand seat occupants.

A valid post by Up and Down Operator by the way.

Vueling
 

Try Vueling.

Very low pay,though

"Not only to the bean counters. Speaking to several TRI's in my company, they seem to prefer 300hr ab-initio's and young age as well. Reason? Learning someone good habits is much easier and safer than de-learning bad habits created elsewhere. The older the candidate, the more difficult the process becomes."

You working for ezy? Although I can understand our training depts reasoning here, reality is slowly creeping up on us... As a matter of fact our incident rates have been on the increase for some time now, I have no figures on this but apparently its been enough to get managements attention.
Lots of low hour first officers. Higher standard required for internal upgrade then for direct entry captains (despite the fact that there is 2-3 years worth of training files on internal upgrades) - still lots of DE CPs.... You go figure...

And before I get shot down, Im not saying DE CPs are not up to the task as a "group", but I have seen some "alarming" cases. We have also lowered our requirements for our DE CPs over the past years...

Standing by for incoming. :E

orange

And, sorry for getting off the topic....

why do pilots have to pay for a type rating? when did this start?

sorry if it's a rather simplistic question. i'm rather new to this industry and have had trouble finding an answer to my query using the search function

regards

Because people have invested lots of money in training and to be more "competetive", to get money coming their way to pay off all their loans, pilots run off to get a typerating.
The beancounters learned this years ago and started using it as a "business model", simple as that!

orange

It started when too many people with more money than sense decided that they would do anything for an airline job. :(

The good old days when type ratings were paid for are gone but thankfully so are the days (in the UK anyway) of state funded, lose making airlines carrying more staff than made sense. The world moves on - it really does. There aren't many industries that pay you to train to join in the fun. It's not more money than sense it's just about accepting realities and moving with the times.

I decided that if I did not get a job within one year of finished CPL/IR I would do FIC course.
I didn't get a job so did FIC course and although I can only afford to instruct part time after a year of FI work at the weekends I am coming up towards 500 hours. Next move will be air taxi.
That said there seems to be strong evidence of a growing shortage of FI's. And the reason seems to be more and more folks go pay for their type rating. The question is of course when will there be sufficient shortage of FI's to stop enough people going down the CPL/IR + TR route to fill the bums on seats as being discussed.
I was updating my details on our instructor board at the club the other day. It dawned on me only 3 out of 8 of us are under 40 (and one of those by only 2 years). Of the other 5 I would hedge my bets none are in the age bracked 40-50.

Then I thought about who are the other FI's around the airfield. And it dawned upon me that at the ripe old age of 30 I am the youngest FI on the field probably. The Instructor is a dying breed. Beware Mr Accountant.......

I disagree! If nobody paid for a TR, the Airlines would have to pay in order to get pilots. The Airlines have certainly moved with the times by laughing and rubbing their hands together when they realised the lengths that some people will go to to get a job.

I also disagree that other industries don't pay for training for newbies. The individual would be expected to have the basic qualifications (a trade, a degree, a license), but specific qualifications (experience in a particular field, a TR) would normally be given 'on the job'.

Hi all, I'm only a wanabee and dont really belong here but here is my twopence worth. Why do pilots have to pay for a type rating? This answer is simple as chicken leg as already stated, people with money at the back of them who get themselves a leg up in the job market.
Who do you employ? A 200hr halfwit with a £15 k type rating at the back of him or a 500hr chap/lass with grade A's and no experence who will cost the company £15K. Airline's are not a flying academy they are a business and as sad as it is, it does mean the likes of me, who are training the modular route, will have to buy a type rating to become employable. Yes if eveyone dosen't pay for a rating the airlines will have to pay but as long as you have that rule you will always have the ones who will sneak in and get a head start in the market by paying themselves.
BP:bored:

Be the change
 

I already posted an answer to that kind of reasoning here on post #56.

Be the change, my friend.

The above quote was taken from ant1's link to the other thread. Imagine the conversation with your debt councillor:

'I owe £40,000 after my ATPL training, what should I do?'

'Have you got a job?'

'No'

'Well, got one'

Well, I could get a job, but it won't be the one I want. How about I borrow another £25,000 to improve my CV?

'Will it guarentee you the job you want?'

'Errr, no'.

'Then that's a stupid idea'.

'Yeah, but I want an airline job'.

It's still a bloody stupid idea'.

'Yeah, maybe, I think I'll do it anyway'

'You *&%$*&£"! You don't need my help, you need a shrink!

Pardon the shift in geography, but in the 90s in the US it was called "buy a job", at Flight Safety (training in the left seat as if for a type rating but no type-rating...initiated by Flight Safety and Comair {Airlines}). This allowed a huge number of RJs to be introduced onto Delta mainline routes, because the Delta MEC back then had been asleep at the yoke :zzz:(wheel). Promises, promises...are like pie crusts in the business world, made to be broken.

Many novices are now going to Gulfstream to acquire some FO experience on the B-1900. Does the airline pay these new FOs? Much of the time, no! As for the flightcrew, the FOs pay for the hours and the airline:E, some of the time, only pays the Captain. That is a much better proposition for the company than being a scab. Think about it: even prostitutes in a 'red light district' are paid-do they pay you, the customer? Lekker slapen.

On a different note, it appears that for years, a very clever British business scheme has brainwashed lots of its novice pilots into buying their jobs, but from a colonial standpoint, what do we know?

Ignition Override

It seems to me that the 'well trodden path' of progressing a career in the U.S. of A has also changed. The old and very admirable system of Instructing then Air Taxi, turboProps, Regional Jet then the Major airlines is defunct. Not alot different to how it used to be over here in the Mother country. :(

absolute tosh. If you all think you're hard done by because you have to pay for your own training, then take your head out of the sand and go and have a real look around.
Wanna be a lawyer - fine - go get a degree - theres 20 - 25 grand right there. You think you will get a job with this basic qualification? Balls. Try law school for a year or two - another 5 - 10 grand. Will you get a job. Maybe - no guarantees , its all speculative at this stage - sound familiar?
If you get a job (not all do), you will spend 2 years as a trainee solicitor on a very very low wage (12 odd grand a year), or if you want to be a barister you won't get paid at all for the first 2 years, only for the cases you actaully get.
Any of that sound familiar - hey guess what its just like becoming a pilot.
Wanna be a doctor, acountant, architect? none of them are going to be much different.
Nobody is going to hand this to you on a plate. The market has changed, paying for ratings one way or another is a fact of life, its the way the market is. If you want to be a part of it fine, if not then also fine, but moaning about it on here isn't going to change anything.

Umm! I agree that you can compare a degree with paying for flight training up to getting your fATPL, but a TR is extra once qualified.
Its also unfair to blame those who paid for a TR for all the current problems.
Firstly nobody actually wants to pay for a TR and therefore even those who have paid will not agree with doing so. But thats the way it is with a few certain airlines.
Secondly it was not the pilots who started paying for TRs. Lets all remember that after 9/11 the TRTO's were starving for business as the airlines were not taking on new pilots and putting them through TR courses. So what did they do, they opened themselves up to individual pilots in order to get some business.
I don't agree with paying for a TR, especially if you have no guaranteed job at the end of it, but for those that did and took the huge risk..good luck to you.
Now lets move on to discussing paying for hours on type....now how does the lawyer compare!!