Smokie is quite correct, flybe are attempting to have the 3 year square bond applied as well...

...that square bond has pretty sharp edges... hope it doesn't hurt them too much when they are told where to shove it! :E

ha! you really think ANYONE will join from BACON with a non reducing bond? Dream on pal! Even if we watch from the dole queue as Flybe goes under, we'll still have the last laugh.

In Oct Smokie wrote on this forum (regarding Flybe):
Says it all really

I agree, FlyBe can't have their cake and eat it.
Somethings got to give.

:hmm: It is understandable that those of you at BACON are wary of working for Flybe. As an ex Q400 driver at Flybe I can testify that it is not the place to be if you are looking for a reasonable level of stability and a decent career structure. However, it has the potential to be a superb airline if they just make a few tweaks to the way they manage their workforce. This could be achieved with some assertive negotiation.

Negatives:-

1) Seniority list is not honoured and base / fleet movement was dependent on how much you were prepared to kiss a**s.

2) The basing policy always seemed to be give them what they don't want e.g. BHX locals forced to go to Scotland / BHD locals to Southampton etc...

3) No policy of T'prop - Jet. Some Captains told that they would be staying on Q400 regardless of seniority, line and sim performance.

4) Numerous roster changes and some unscheduled nightstops.

5) SBY 1hr from airport.

All the above could be addressed at little cost.

Positives:-

1) Great crews and a good working atmosphere.

2) Exeter is manned by people you can actually talk to.

3) Well maintained aircraft.

4) Decent training (unless you got sent to Toronto).

5) Rapid time to command.

6) Good turboprop salary.

7) Reasonable pension.

8) The company is serious about regional flying and invests accordingly.

9) The work patterns are not as demanding as BACON.

At one point nearly 10% of the workforce had handed their notice to move to Jet operators but this was mostly to do with unpredictable career progression.

I know many BACON guys are already being very critical of Flybe but the ones I have met and now work with at BA were so scathing about BA that surely another company is a bonus? The only way BACON could have been viable was to instigate sweeping reforms in terms of outsourcing and wage cutting to reflect the loco industry. I suspect BA did not have the stomach for that and selling was the easy option.

Flybe has the potential to be a great company to work for and if they had operated a Manchester base with a proper career structure I would never have left. As many have already said this is a merger not a takeover. Flybe needs pilots with experience to handle its expansion plans. Do your best to negotiate some sensible contract changes and it will be a damn sight more enjoyable than it was working for the Empire. If you all walk in thumping the table demanding BACON T&C's along with the same salary structure then JF will make life so difficult that the J31 at Eastern will suddenly seem very appealing.

I wish you the best of luck.

matzpenetration,

an excellent, constructive and unbiased post. I just wish I hadn't stooped to a lower level earlier in response to the previous idiocy.

I again say I believe that flybe probably can become a very successful airline, and if it gets it right, many may once again consider it as a career airline. For the guys that hang about to give it a go, good luck. :bored:

Come to FlyBe and it will be more of the same, funny handshakes, secret squirrels and golden parachutes for those who have shafted you from dawn 'til dusk and dusk 'til dawn again.

Don't get me started on the Shares Fiasco...........

apart from that, come on in, the water's .................................................
















full of Sharks:yuk:

Gimme da money
 

Biddedout said

"Same goes for directors too, if Flybe does float then no cashing in of shares for at least five years without significant financial penalties."

Get real. Do you think that the directors are in the aviation business because the like looking out the window at you landing aeroplanes or collecting rego numbers?

They are there because if they get it right they can flog it off and retire to a carribean island to count their dosh. Some like Branson don't even need to flog it off :rolleyes:

Part of the process is by chaining you to the aircraft with a bond, working you as hard as they can without you detracting from the profits by making a mistake and for as little wedge as possible .

Thumper,

Ah, the equations of desired reward in aviation. Solve these simultaneous equations for a successful company.:ok:



Pilots = more pay + less work.
Managment = less pay + more work.






Senior mangers + directors = More and more and more and more .....converging to infinity as profit tends to zero.

Can someone explain why Flybe are introducing an non-reducing bond over 3 years?

Is the company that bad that they have to force Pilots to fly their aircraft? If they treated their pilots with the respect that they deserve nobody would leave. I wouldn't mind signing a bond if the salary was more than all of the other Airlines, but it is a fact Flybe are the worst paid Pilots in the country. £52 grand for a jet skipper. What an insult.

Biddedout - Eureka, you've got it!!!
Go to the top of the class - but be careful := - you could be a wealthy director soon and then we will all talk about you! but you won't care, you will be counting the dosh :)

Hudson, it is simply a form of shackles to attempt to force pilots to stay at flybe. It is a foolish attempt to address the phenomenal turnover in crew which they have experienced for quite some time now.

Instead of addressing the actual issues such as lifestyle, scheduling, morale, etc they impose a 'prison sentence'!

It also negates the cost of training. If you leave you pay up and they use that to pay for the next guy - they don't really care whether you stay or leave. There are plenty of wannabes out there wanting that first job. BACON never used that principle because it was deemed unfair - another reason why the flybe crews will all benefit from importing some reasonable T's & C's :D

So did anyone hear Jim French on this radio programme, and if so, did he have anything of interest to say? Of interest to us rashers of bacon that is?

Any of you Rashers expecting any of your T's & C's to be "imported", are in for a bit of a shock.

Flybe pilots at back of queue when brains handed out....
 

Can any of you chaps answer a straight question, or are you just interested in causing as much angst as possible? Doh! Stupid question - this is, after all a FLYBE pilot I'm talking about!!!!!!;)

Yes Tory,

Would you not be interested for starters in inheriting all or part of our FDA / ODM / SESMA agrement? Works very well and is put together from the best of the agreements in the industry with our managments blesing and sponsorship. I am told that your system is not quite so well developed. There is no reason why your CC wouldn't have developed many of these policies themselves given time, but we might just have had a head start and the ability to use BA as a benchmark. Not always the best company to take a lead from:rolleyes: , but at least we were able to pick and choose.

What about all the other policies and procedures? Do you have anything written down? If not, What do you want to do, tear all ours up and start all over again because they are BAcon and all the hard work that went into developing them has to be destroyed at all cost?

I saw some kind of Flybe policy to do with bonuses and bribes for not going sick. One day not flying with a head cold and you lose the lot. What's that all about. Does it apply to pilots too? If so, who signed up to that? We managmed to kick all that nonsense into touch when we proved that pilots had the best sickness record in the company. Guess which department was the worst? ...........................................HR

Silas - http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio/aod/mainf...ive/weekendbiz and fast forward to 37minutes

BOSD

T's & C's (reasonable)
 

Torycanyon

Do you object to "importing some reasonable T's & C's "

if so, why?

Tory and Thumper....
 

I think my colleague is just over-reacting to some of the bolshier Smoky Bacon postings; of course we'd like more money, of course we'd like a tighter scheduling agreement - but you have to see that we're a bit shy of adopting any of the policies and procedures of a failed bankrupt airline, particularly when the employees of that failed and bankrupt airline, (now being effectively closed down by its owners), start TELLING us how things are going to be. I'm not trying to be inflammatory, I'm just telling it like it is.:) I'm quite happy to listen to the two CCs, I'm quite happy to have suggestions made, I'm quite happy to welcome our new employees on board, as New Starters in the Flybe group, I'm even happy for them to be paid more than me in line with the TUPE legislation. However, even MY well known pearly smile will falter a little bit if and when our new joiners start to act as though they are in the driving seat, and start to pick and choose which parts of Flybe they will go along with, which bases and aircraft they'll fly, and how much money they'll require, and what conditions they'll work under. My hackles start to rise instinctively.
Like a lot of people on here, I've been through just a few career incarnations as airlines rise and fall, and I've never ever heard the likes of some of the Porkies being dealt out by the Baconeers. Talk about " Do unto others before they turn around"!:rolleyes:
So come on chaps, let's behave a bit eh?:=

Ts&Cs
 

Biddout, you are right in almost every respect. Just one point. The agreements (incl) SESMA were hard won. They were presented as warmly welcomed by management but I can tell you with certaintly that the version they wanted did not protect the anonimity of the crew in event of analysis of an incident.

The very same principle is true of all agreements. They were fought for over a long period. The only airline management I know of that understands that leadership (rather than driving staff with a stick) is more profitable, is South West in the USA. They hold morale and integrity of the operation as sacrosanct, and so reward people handsomely for going the extra mile rather than punishing them if the do not. They have also made amazing profits for 34 years on the trot, whilst paying the biggest salaries & selling the cheapest seats. Notice the apparent contradiction in terms some have been banging on about?

There is nothing that I have heard about Flybe that so far alters my view that it is of a bottom of the food chain airline that treats pilots with the same respect that it reats the toilet cleaners. If this newish MD is as good as some say, he may learn that it is better to work with the CC rather than fight it but the track record of UK management does nothing to give one confidence.

Someone else made the point that the way to solve the crew problem is make it worth staying not trapping people in nasty mean legal contracts. Absolutely right. But it take foresight & leadership...when did you last notice any of that in corporate management?

The real test for the head honcho is can he learn & be original (well almost) but if it were me I would not want to bet my career on it.

What a great plan, get given an airline, 100 million quid, make the terms and conditions unacceptable to your new workforce, pilots leave, scale it down/shut it down, keep money. I'll go back to cutting the grass.

No it doesn't apply to pilots. It only applies to Cabin Crew as far as I know. Who signed up to it? Nobody! The CC have, until recently, been unrepresented by ANY sort of union.

Rythmn MethodAnd that's all it is, an attempt. Our Balpa CC have told us that this non reducing bond will not be enforceable under Europen Law.

The bit that you BACON guys don't seem to get is that IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN!

Why do you think that flybe will institute your T&Cs, when a) it will cost them a fortune, and b) it will reduce their flexibility, and c) they are under absolutely no obligation to do so?

This goes along with the myth that the BACON crews have any bargaining power whatsoever.

The eventual result will be that the BACON crews can have jobs if they want them, but under terms and conditions that will be decided in Exeter with no reference to whatever BACON crews might have negotiated at some point in the past with a different management.

Why do you BACON guys persist in the delusion that you or your CC can dictate conditions? History and common sense indicate otherwise. And BTW I don't work for flybe (any more), so I'm not commenting from a pro-flybe stance.

The Little Prince

Good post and well said, i couldn`t agree more. :D

Remoak what is so wrong with T&Cs that benefit the company and the workforce? the more and more i read on here, the more and more i see Flybe as some ancient company whos work force seem to have this stuck in the mud mindset, do you have to tug your forelock and bow every time jimbo makes an appearance!!! Or do you just have to kiss his ring!! For this to all work then both sides have to except change not just the BACON workforce but yes FLYBE as well. When BA management came a knocking on the door Jimbo could have just laughed in there collective faces but he didnt, he was quite happy to smell the 106million and think about how he could move the new FLYBE/BACON forward with the money pity his pilots dont have that vision.

Marlowe, summed up quite succinctly.

Both sides will have to give and take a little. Flybe's lack of a REAL scheduling agreement is quite pitiful in this day and age. You ought to be trying to move out of the dark ages, and this merger gives a perfect opportunity to do so.

For those who are still adamant that BACON crews have no rights other than to get pinned to the bottom of a combined seniority list and accept any sh!t that comes their way... then why are BOTH BALPA CCs talking to one another? Why are they moving through this minefield with care and consideration for each other and BOTH pilot workforces? Because they both know that a combined and united approach to JF will get his attention just a little more smartly. A scheduling agreement does not need to be a financial noose around a company's neck. Indeed, if implemented correctly, it can be a huge benefit to a company. It encourages those who want lifestyle issues as a priority. It attracts new staff due to the stability it brings. It encourages the company to get the crewing levels correct so as not to permanently sh@ft a demoralised workforce.

BACON did not fail due to it's scheduling agreement. It failed due to many other factors..

.. a threefold (at least) increase in managerial posts after BA's aquisition.
.. a seemingly incompetent commercial department who NEVER accepted advice from crews.
.. No defined direction for BACON.
.. No idea who the target market was (firstly it was business... then complete u-turn to belatedly attempt to attract the day-to-day leisure punter.
.. No advertising of BACON routes (or anything outside London) until too late.
.. No investment in modern technology.
.. Inability to find and hence book BACON flights online.
.. Determination that the BA way was the only way.. crews nightstopping all over Europe.
.. Crews based in the wrong parts of the country after FSAS 1,2,3...
.. Resultant £300k per month taxi bills.

...Need I go on?

A lot of these points could have applied to Jersey European before that business was turned around, and JF sees that in BACON. He is laughing, I'm sure, at the incompetence of BA to see what to do, and so he's going to be laughing all the way to the bank when he proves it can be done with us.

Indeed, Marlowe, some of these supposedly intelligent professionals seem proud to still have such archaic practices in place. :rolleyes:

You are right, absolutely right, JF will be laughing and so will BA,(Not British Airways) they both treat pilots as neccessary evils. BA positively HATES pilots.

I have seen a copy of your scheduling agreement and so have most of the BALPA Members. WE Think it's BRILLIANT, WE WANT IT.

BUT and there is always a but, it will never happen in a Zillion years because they, JF and BA don't want it. BA has openly said that he will use the FTL to roster us to the Max, because he can.


Our Cabin Crew are now also Toilet Cleaners:yuk:

End Of......:ugh:

Then it is about time that you drew that line in the sand. Aircraft need crew to man them and every airline manager knows that. And don't succomb to the 'business can't stand it' c...p!. Looks like flyBe need an injection of backbone.

Marlowe/Rhythm Method.

I don't think anyone at Flybe would actively oppose your scheduling agreement. Indeed, as has been said on here, everyone wants it. But we are being REALISTIC about it. It wont happen, it doesn't mean we are happy or proud about it.

RMHave you told Jim?

Look, in the last 2 months I haven't had a roster change. I've been ASKED to do extra sectors once, and the choice was mine and mine alone. Oh, I said no and that was the end of that. I average about 50-60 hours a month. I have done a grand total of 4, 6 sector days in over 6 years. I'm at home every night. Can you say the same? I don't think having your scheduling agreement would make that any better do you? It aint that bad.

At the end of the day, if you don't like it then clear off. Comments about our supposed intelligence are not only childish but pathetic and unprofessional. We've already got enough arrogant dickheads in this company, we don't want anymore.

Max, crew also need an airline to fly for. Where's yours?

Chesty

"Have you told Jim?"

We are telling him now!

"But we are being REALISTIC about it. It wont happen"

Not in its present form it won't - we all accept that - but if things don't change, well they will stay the same!

Be positive and hope for a little improvement - we know, and accept that we are in for a change.

Back to the good old days - bring it on!

Pleased to hear about the stability over the last 2 months.

I agree that comments about your supposed intelligence are not only childish but pathetic and unprofessional!

Flybe's

It's up to your management to fight their corner and it's up to the pilots to fight theirs!

It sounds like some of you PILOTS are sticking up for your own management at the same time as self same managers do you out of a decent scheduling agreement!

It's no good wringing your hands about how JF will never go for it.

He will if he has to and if it helps HIM!

All it takes is for Jimbo et al to realise the benefits to Flybe of such a deal and it will come to pass.

It's not as unlikely as you seem to think.

I apologise if you feel I personally insulted you, but I stand by that statement that many here seem too willing to spout the management line without looking at the benefits to be gained by both sides (crew and management).

basically says what I also believe. Look, I can sort of see why you want to stand up for your own 'brand', why you want to shout out "We survive, and BA's brand is cr@p!" (and I can agree with that too!!!). But, pride in your own brand is not going to help with the lifestyle issues I pointed out earlier. I am amazed at the stability in your own personal roster Chester, bearing in mind that my mates in flybe have been saying for months and years how crap it is... rosters not worth the paper they are written on, extra sectors imposed at the end of rostered duties, etc. Perhaps your base may be of benefit, I don't know.

How many times must it be pointed out that BA AND Jim French have stated clearly that the scheduling agreement was not the reason for Connect's downfall? Flybe don't want to pay a penny more than is necessary for anything.. but what is the old expression about penny wise and pound foolish? Flybe CC are agreed that our scheduling agreement is virtually an industry leader, and that it is vital to 'aim for the stars, so you may just reach the sky'. A compromise is what is required.. flybe's scheduling agreement (can I call it that without fear of falling foul of the trade description act?) is pitiful, BACON's agreement is an industry benchmark... agree to settle in the middle ground.

I have already made it clear that I am serving my notice, but I would hope that my posts are therefore less biased and formed from lucid un-emotional thinking. I merely hope to challenge the thought process of BOTH pilot workforces.. you will most likely end up working with each other in the not too distant future. Bear that in mind before you post any vitriole! I have very close friends and relations in both companies currently, so I already hear a lot of the uninformed rumour-mongering... it only serves to help managements divide and conquer principle.

I genuinely hope that the new bigger and better flybe/BACon is a glowing success, but as I warned... you are already sliding down the slippery slope of p!ssing off your future FELLOW EMPLOYEES. Think about it. :sad:

As I previously mentioned, you still have to get it past that Weezil BA:yuk:
His mission in life is to cause as much disruption to the Pilot work force that he legally can and unfortunately does.

Among other disasters, He was the one who instigated the DOIL's nightmare and will no doubt resurrect that one again when it suits him.:(

Any Rashers coming over had better be prepared for a rougher ride than they currently expect. As for our CC??? They won't be doing the majority of us any favours, most of them are top heavy on the seniority list and couldn't give a toss about, new joiners, the promotion prospects of their supposed colleagues, etc, etc.
If they did then they would not have supported the companies latest pay offer period.:ugh:

Tory, who is BA? Is he ex-BRAL or something?

Ads
 

""".. No advertising of BACON routes (or anything outside London) until too late."""


There are big BACON ads going up all over Bristol, airport and city, as I write. I've heard Brum is the same

GroundBunnie

Interesting tactic - the famous "Horse and Stable Door" BACon Commercial Department strategy :ugh: :D :rolleyes:

Marlowe

Absolutely nothing, and I would be the first to welcome them - having served under the rather dismal flybe conditions for a few years. But they still won't happen, for reasons that should be obvious.

Actually, quite the reverse. I had more than one confrontation with JF in my time at flybe, and the man was unfailingly courteous, attentive and reasonable. He responded to every email I sent him, even the slightly angrier ones, and went a long way to try and solve the problems I was highlighting. He always appreciated my input, even when it was probably less than expert! So I rate him very highly (which is more than you could say for his middle management at the time - always a weakness at flybe).

Why?

There is absolutely no reason why flybe should change at all, certainly not for the reasons being postulated by BACON employees. They may choose to implement some operational changes, but they are under absolutely no obligation to do so. The idea that flybe should change is just part of the myth that BACON crews have any power at all in whatever "negotiations" occur.

Sure. He was (and is) primarily concerned with how he can maximize the return to flybe, and he has no concern at all for what was the BACON setup. He is being offered a failed (by its management) airline, and he will only take the bits that he wants (such as whatever crews want to join, and a lack of competition on some routes), and ditch the rest (like all the airframes, the management structure, etc). I'm quite sure that if the BACON crews become a problem, he will ditch them too.

In the same way, it is highly likely that he will look after his own crews first. Flybe, like the other locos, can always find pilots. How many BACON pilots will come knocking if they are all made redundant? Quite a few, I should think. In fact, that would be easier all round, straight to the bottom of the seniority list and the same pay as everyone else.

Some of you BACON guys are living in la-la land if you think you have any power here. Accept the job offer, suck it in and try and forget the past. You were screwed (probably not for the last time).

If I were still in flybe, I would be vigorously campaigning to have all the BACON crews put on the bottom of the list. Nothing personal, but I don't see why my future should be messed up by a bunch of refugees from a failed airline. I'm sure the majority of flybe crews share that view.

Rhythm Method

The sooner you get it into your head that this ISN'T A MERGER, the sooner you will understand what is about to happen to you...

It's not personal. It's business. (Donald Trump)

Remoak. Thank goodness you are ex FLYBE!! one less neathandrel man in the company! OK it seems that almost to a man/woman the FLYBE workforce on here generally wanted nothing to do with BACON ,and you would rather have gone on in your own way heads to the millstone,well it seems that you are all out of step with the managment that you all seem to hold in such high esteem!Jimbo obviously thinks that this is now the better route to go down and is marching down it pockets stuffed with BA cash. So he obviously was not happy with the way things were going at FLYBE if he can effectivly rip up the business plan and start again. As i said in an earlier post if the business plan and strategy that FLYBE has is so good and the company was doing so great why get involved with BACON? I know all about new routes , business market etc etc. But as i said he is choosing to get involved when he could have just laughed as BACON fried, if you walk past BMIs boardroom you can still hear the laughter echoing of the walls as BA management were shown the door!

Remoak you are absolutely wrong in your increasingly strident assertion that BACON guys have no bargaining power.

Under TUPE and a raft of associated employment law any CONTRACTUAL term has to be honoured by a purchasing company subject to various provisos.

In simple terms that means that the majority of our existing contractual terms and conditions apply unless and until we agree otherwise.

Integration cannot take place unless and until WE AGREE on a new set of terms and conditions to replace our existing.

Now if Jim French does not like our failure to agree whatever he demands of us and walks away from the deal (if he can) then that is another matter..............

In simple terms he is hoping that the pressure of anticipation of a P45 from BA if this falls over will make us compliant and accept whatever he tells us.............Actualy I think he knows exactly the score, which is that sound compromises will have to be made to achieve acceptable middle ground all round.

Thats how it is.

If you donrt believe me ask your Balpa PN or any employment lawyer.