Wondering, Thanks for your comments and highlighting my blatant error.

Jet2. One of the most sensible posts I have read here.

I would happily go to BALPA with more than just the option of banning SSTRs if people thought that would help. Those of us against the practice of SSTRs have come up with a few ideas that could help. All I can get out of the other side of your camp is "you're wasting your time"!!

I hear what you say about companies having to absorb costs elsewhere if SSTRS are banned. I however think that when you can buy a TR for £25K incl VAT the cost to the company would at least be VAT free and when numerous TRs are bought by a company or done in house, the cost would drop considerably, especially when you use your own aircraft for the base check.

Just as a thought, if pilots could actually work together to get a ban on SSTRs then surely maintaing Ts and Cs would be easier considering they are already working together.

Leveling the uneven playing field as you put it is actually what I was hoping to achieve. Thanks for your comments.

OSOP

>>Just as a thought, if pilots could actually work together to get a ban on SSTRs then surely maintaing Ts and Cs would....<<

You folks can work together 'til the cows come home, and the net result will be that NOTHING can be 'Banned'.
You are totally waisting you time.

Some folks work hard to save the cash for a rating (rather than being wealthy to begin with) so it is sour grapes from those that can't/won't.
No more, no less.
If you don't like the way the conditions of pay/service are in you're present carrier, move on to somewhere else, just like many others before have done.

In other words, make your OWN luck, if you have the fortitude.

I suspect many won't, so all they do is bit@h and moan, and the net result is...zero.

bravo 411A, well said.

The reality is (thankfully) that in any open society economically you have the right to 'manage' your money and/or investments as you so choose. This silly crusade to ban something is what politicians do when scared that someone or something is getting close to the truth (aka New Labour :) ). However as students or qualified professionals we have the legal and ethical right to get the type rating.

If the chap down our street can't afford to send his daughter to one of the better engineering universities then should all engineering faculities (spelling) stop taking students. There is in my eyes no such thing as being poor all the time, you may have a couple of low points in your life but once you get up and going again you'll get the income and with some sacrifices save some money too. In this manner you can facilitate further study or training, if nothing else it makes you a better person!

Employers of all industries have constantly complained about how their bottom line was eroded due to garduates from training organisations, institutes, universities, etc are sub standard and require further training when in the work place. It's not unique to aviation other than this industry having been too insulated for far too many years. In those days the BAs of this world could what they wanted, whenever they chose. But look at the detriment of that situation where 99.9% of wannabes didn't even get a chance compared to todays system where everyone has a crack at the whip.

There is no perfect system and banning things are done in the school confines by the headmaster and not by French style silliness and snobbery.
The money I pay is hard earned and I know that when I have little or nothing left but I am responsible for my own actions and I'm a big boy that can take it. Maybe that's the true fear here of people wanting assurances before they go ahead, this is no fairy tale.

My friend, you are indeed extremely naive and obviously have a great deal to learn about the aviation industry. I suggest you carry out some intensive research before you return with some utopian ideas on establishing a level playing field because what you are suggesting is simply not going to work. FTOs (TRTOs) supply an airline demand for pilots and it costs money to train a pilot to the quality requirements of the airline. Therefore, it saves the airline the cost in part or whole, if it can be offloaded on to the student, and if the student has the money (from whatever means) and is willing to pay for this training to further his career, then why shouldn't he? This is the way it works and it may seem unfair to you in your ideal world but that's the way it is and that's the way it will stay. If you want to improve terms and conditions for the aviation world, then pay for your type rating, get a job with an airline, become the union rep, and then lobby the management to change the T & Cs.

It won't work any other way.....trust me.

The thread vote is a bit misleading, in that I voted that I am against SSTR but I am about to apply to Easy and hopefully pay my way. The alternative is to give up because I can't afford to take a lower paid job. The reason? My 4500 helicopter hours are worthless.

At one time a university graduate was held in very high regard and esteem not necessarily due to his/her course of study but because they had gone through a form of 'elevated teaching'. That was enough in it's day to enable almost all graduates to get an interview if not a job. Fast forward today and I am waiting for the graduation certificate in 'Agriculture during the Eqyptian Period" for my dog :) I realise that anyone and everyone has a degree and no one seems to care. Therefore in order to distinguish oneself alot of graduates are doing a Masters or additional professional studies at their own expense, time and effort. Would you want to ban them?

I love to run and train HARD for races but get beaten by people who trained even harder, what should I do ban them from entering races. Complain to the local athletics club or sporting association that everytime I enter a race I don't win the London Marathon!

No one has the remit or right to ban type ratings and even if that fantastic fantasy was to be become reality pilots would still tread that path via USA, Canada, China.

If you can't do it, fine
If you can't afford it, fine
If you can't make the sacrifices, fine
If you are used to things being served on a silver tray, fine.

But what isn't fine is someone closing down a training/education option for others just because they don't like it.

self funded type rating
 

for what its worth i believe the airlines should organise their own type rating scheme and not expect individuals to self fund rating. a type rating done under the guidance of the airlines own sop's and jet type is a proper and quality way to do training. It integrates the simulator training, sop's of the airline including base training on type and all of these are done over a reasonable short period of time so that there are no gaps between simulator-base-and line training.

Self funded ratings are a bunch of hours in a simulator and a rubber stamp at the end of it with no reflection on specific airline sop's or route familarity. Once the simulator training is complete the individual is waiting for a job with an airline which could take months or even years as may be the case for some individuals.This in my view is to say the least a botched job way of doing things and the airlines should no better!

Personally i think that the likes of ryan air who go this route as an airline is disgraceful it gives the impression of low cost airline, low cost pilot training etc. Self funded type ratings, self funded application sterling £50 or is it Euro's anyway i woulden't even give it time of day!

My message to those young new pilots out there is be patient dont self fund your own type rating let the airline do a proper job. Dont panic there are plenty of jobs out there.

Pilot recruitment has never been so buoyant with all the middle east carriers recruiting, India and far east having a shortage of pilots the future indeed looks good so lets not drop our standards.

That last post by GTAflyer was a prayer. A company's SOP and other forms of integrated training would help optimise training but that isn't possible in practical terms. Besides pilots are professionals and can or indeed should be able to adapt to a new or different situation. Airlines are a business and not a training college nor are they part of a government social programme to help make the lives of a few people better.

The fact that this thread started with reference to the pprune poll should direct us to accept what the results were and not do a Belusconni (did I spell that right) and dismiss the outcome. Okay so many are opposed to a TR, that's fine. I don't go into a restaurant and ask what's everyone else ordering tonight? I just choose what I prefer.

Indeed we should scrutinise the pprune results but not argue how they are flawed or artificially inflated/deflated or even get thrown out into a separate yet parallel argument about TRs.

Okay rant over, be cool.

Easyjet TRSS BYCOTT
 

Well, it was bound to happen sooner or later. Ryanair have now realised that they can no longer attract experienced professional Pilots who are prepared to pay thousands upon thousands of pounds for a qualification, upon which they can firstly, only exercise the benifit of that qualification to said company and secondly, within their specific working environment .

This raises the question, "How much longer can Easyjet hold out?" Surely Easyjet are now starting to feel the strain. My question to fellow experienced professional pilots is this:

If Easyjet decided to abandon their immoral TRSS scheme and replace it with a bond, would you be inclined to apply? YES or NO ?

Before anyone asks, no, I am not part of an Easyjet management task team, although it may seem like it from the theme of the post.

My personal answer is YES. I would consider it. I believe I have paid enough money to get to the stage where I am at (a mere 1500 hours I know, but mostly on Jet ) and feel my family and I deserve to be able to apply for positions which do not require me to pay any more money.

Thoughts anyone?

Ps. If you are a wannabe, don't bother replying, this post is not meant for you, as you are in a completely different situation.

Devokeuk - by the sound of things you aspire to become an easyJet pilot but do not like the look of TRSS. Frankly, given the nature of your post, you would be extremely fortunate to get anywhere near being offered a place on TRSS. Being able to spell is a pre-requisite for most airline jobs. If you are going to be credible, you may want to change 'bycott' to 'boycott' - it makes you look like you have not been to school! And by the way, 'benifit' is spelt 'benefit'. You say in your post you "feel my family and I deserve to be able to apply for positions which do not require me to pay any more money." I am sorry to be so picky but if you are presenting yourself as a professional pilot who should be employed by a 'proper' airline, it would be reasonable to expect you to demonstrate basic spelling skills. And by the way, 1500 hours does not constitute being an 'experienced' pilot. You seem to be under the impression that the airline industry in general ,and easyJet in particular, has sadly missed out on the pleasure of your company - a bit of humility as to the true nature of your position would probably lead you to reassess the situation.

Your rant has a valid foundation, but is moot since on the evidence shown so far you will fail to get into eJ. Whilst I'm sure your flying skills will be good enough to shine in the sim assessment, the rest of the package is already looking weak. Attention to detail (spelling) is very poor, willingness to make the extra effort (using a spell checker, in MS Word for example) is not there, and you are aggressively banging the table before you're even in sight of the door, let alone through it.
Of course, eJ will continue to stick to TRSS until the pool of suitable and willing candidates dries up. Is that day close (it might be, especially since we need 100 FOs right now)? I would advise going through the application and interview process, shining in every respect, and then declining the job offer until they remove the TRSS element.

where did you get this information the Ryan is stopping SSTR. I think this is highly unlikely. Please prove me wrong - 'good luck'

suspicious

Norman.....most of your posts Ive read recently have found a receptive audience in myself. However your response to this chap I'm afraid to say has come off in my opinion sounding pious and a little sniffy. Sure this fellow could do with learning how to use spell check, and perhaps work on his sentence construction..it does not however take away from thoughts that he has expressed. I for one tend to agree with the basic premise of his comments relating to the length of time the TRSS scheme can continue to be implemented as the supply of suitable candidates continues to dry up.

Your assertion that this chap is not compatible with joining your merry band of orange boys and girls based on one post on a website is a bit rich really.

Wow,

Well, I was not asking for a spelling lesson chaps. I just wanted to know other peoples opinions. I feel that there are Pilots out there who would apply for jobs if they knew that they did not have to pay more cash.

Had a few glasses of wine last night, hence the spelling mistakes, for that I am truly sorry.

Cheers.

PS : PLANESHIPCAR, have a look on Flight Internationals job website. Reference to Ryanairs bond for First Officers is there.

NSF, I must agree here with 757manipulator. Whilst you tend to talk a lot of sense, and I particularly admire your stance re BALPA, that post was harsh.
There's a world of difference between what many would write on prune and the attention they would put into an application. The guy talks sense, I fully agree he should not have to fork out more money for the "privilege" of flying Easy's, or anybody elses, Boeingbuses.
1500 hours is obviously not a high experience level; however if it's mostly on jets, as he says, he is going to be a LOT less of a training risk than a low time guy, and as, such could fairly be described as RELATIVELY experienced in relation to many of the people that I imagine are applying.

planeshipcar, FR has indeed advertised in Flight for 1500hr+ FOs with training provided. Said FO's will be bonded. Needless for me to say, as many threads have already said so, this "deal" does not in any way make FR an attractive place to work. Be careful, very careful. There will no doubt be horrendous strings attached.

Devokeuk.

That's some good news - a shame not of cadets. I find it very tedious when reading through the threads having skip pages of crap about spelling and immature insults to get to the continuation of what the question on the thread is really about - so I have sympathy for you there.

Good luck with your dreams

devokeuk: Lets hope what you say is what is happening at FR will happen to all SSTR providers. It would be nice to know that that is the case. It may mean I dont have to present anything to BALPA. On that note......

If we were fortunate enough to be in that situation. Does anyone have any ideas on how could we can keep it that way, if at all. It may be a different approach that I could take.

411A, Flopsie, Boogie-Nicely: I am probably very naive with my views on this industry however I have never claimed to have a huge amount of experience. I am however, genuinely concerned that my Ts and Cs later on in life will be at a lower level than those experienced by most airline pilots at the moment. Without the support of fellow pilots such as yourselves, it is going to be hard to action any change or at the very least, keep us at the same inflation adjusted level. While I hold these concerns, my views will not change, no matter how hard you tell me I am wrong!

Flopsie, what are your motives? I am sure you will agree that from a pilots point of view, if they dont have to pay for a type rating, that is a good thing. Are you actually a pilot because your attitude is very strongly against my plans for someone who would benefit directly from my success! What is your agenda?? You know what mine is! Why is an airbus pilot so dead against the removal of SSTRs.

Boogie-Nicely: I dont personally care if an SSTR company goes bust or a training option is closed down becasue of my actions. I am not targeting any one SSTR company,just the notion of SSTRs. They dont care about the pilots futures they influence by selling SSTRs so why should I care about the futures of the management or owners. You dont hear any SSTR companies saying 'Our main worry is how the pilot community will do while we sell type ratings' they are only out to make money so you are naturally not going to hear pilots saying 'I hope that SSTR organisation that is costing me money will remain financially viable'. Infact, most SSTR companies publicly dont gaurantee work or job placements! Its a dog eat dog world out there, especially in aviation and if my plans mean an SSTR company goes under, thats business and whoever started it made the wrong business decision, they always have the option to diversify and there would be no reason why they could become a company integrated TRTO. Its not personal and for them, it would be exactly the same as a pilot, buying a TR and then not getting a job and all the while owing thousands to the bank, they dont care once your out the door as long as there is someone to take your place!

For the record...... I have not been 'burnt' by any company or training organisation and this isnt a personal crusade against any one SSTR provider! I have genuine concerns about the overall future of the aviation industry I want to work in. Your arguments hold no weight with me!!

OSOP

I'm all for free markets and free decisions so I too am not concerned with the financial welfare of these SSTR companies they are big boys and have to take it on the chin. Though I advocate the pursuit of SSTR it doesn't exempt me from being a caring personality, after all I am a geuine team player in the greater scheme of things and would be dismyed with the degradation of my fellow pilots T&Cs in future. However I just don't feel that the blame can be put on the doorstep of those who wish to sacrifice most, train hardest whilst be openly responsible for their own actions. This is like blaming the recent Peugeot car plant closure on the immigrants. Aviation is a complex game with an equally complex array of variables so a single source of activity cannot be solely responsible for the wave of change running through the industry in recent years. I have always felt that in the past aviation was a closed door to many and that those on the right side of that door were more than looked after compared to the pleb working as a clerk in some dusty office somewhere.

If it's difficult to identify the specifics of this 'wave of change' then at least we can ascertain what direction it appears to be coming from. That would most certainly be the LCC which is now a global phenomena and long may it continue. We have to ask ourselves what else are we prepared to do in order to justify better T&Cs, do we speak multiple languages, have the potential to leave the cockpit with a path to management (effective and practical not old boys club)? How many pilots turn up for employment with a solid degree and perhaps a Masters in Aerospace Engineering, Astro Physics, Mathematics?

As naturally conservative persons we are starting to sound more like whinging trade unions by the day. We should dispense with this self appointed attitude that we are special and we "deserve it", market forces will decide what the level shall be. Aviation is not a flying club there for our benefit it is at the end of the day a business and though in the past it has been shielded by governments from the harsh realities of corporate culture, airlines are now very atuned to the harsh climes of the business world. Not so easy to fog off hard nosed business men in the city with fuddy-duddy CAA type illusions. The business world are the ones that have turned up the screw on an unfit and at times obese industry,

Boggie Nicey
One of the most sensible posts I've read on here on a long time.
20driver

Boogie-Nicey, I echo 20Drivers comments.

It has been very hard to get any alternatives to my ideas (which I am openly asking for) from those who wish to see SSTRs remain as a part of the industry with the exception of "you dont know what you are doing" and "it cant be done" with no solid justifying reasons. I still think however that it is possible for those that... " sacrifice most, train hardest whilst be openly responsible for their own actions " ... to get into aviation without having to buy a SSTR. It would mean that aviation would be open to those who had the ability, perserverance and personality to get through as opposed to those that have the money or those that are prepared to spend ludicrous amounts of money (not theirs) to obtain employment.

Aviation as I see it is definately moving to the opposite side, where the door is closing to those who cant afford it, regardless of their aspirations, ability or hardwork. Bonding seems to be the obvious middle ground after you get selected based on your ability. We are at the point where we can hold onto the balance of risk between company and pilot,maybe swing it back in our favour but it shouldnt be totally lumped on the pilot and if the company bears some of the risk of training, then that gives pilots more of a leverage when it comes to securing Ts and Cs. Im not saying I want to be paid £100k as a lo-co f/o but we have the choice to let it go one way or the other, I personally dont want to see the burden put squarely on the pilots and I definately dont want to get screwed by management. SSTRs are a tool that helps management, not pilots. If a pilot has the skills, personality and desire, they will get a rating without a SSTR regardless if they have the money to pay for one or not, they can then negotiate based on ability and dedication to the company. If a company knows its pilots have lots of money or are in debt due to their SSTR and are desperate for the job, they can flex more muscle than they otherwise could when it comes to negotiations of Ts and Cs.

You sum up my case beautifully with the following quote:

This is how we should make ourselves stand out, not the size of our wallet (or loan)! The thing I am trying to prevent is the 'old boys club' (which incidently is not as it was now the industry is so big) turning into the 'rich boys club'. We need to be in the middle, free from SSTRs.

OSOP.

Hi all.
Great thread with some excellent posts. I fear there was a missed opportunity with the poll questions though as I would like to know how many of you disagree with SSTR’s but forked out for one anyway as it was the only way forward. I suspect that it’s quite a lot.

I really don’t know why the notion of SSTR solicits such a negative reaction. Some of ye are going on as if we (yes, I’m a SSTRer and proud) have taken food out of your mouth. I’ve never read such drivel in all my days. What makes you think you have an Allah given right to a type rating? I have a friend in NY who has to pay 40 grand a year for tuition in NYU. I happen to think that 25 grand for a SSTR is peanuts. For me SSTR’s have levelled the playing field in that its given me an opportunity to compete with the old school tie. I now find myself able to compete with people who, in the old days, would have wiped the floor with me because of their connections, or more correctly, their parents connections.

Any suggestion that an SSTR is inferior is really insulting to those of us who have gone down that route. It is outrageous arrogance to suggest that a SSTR student is inferior to any other pilot as we got the same training. If your careful which TRTO you choose then you will get the exact same training as the airline sponsored people.

There are numerous ways to get a right seat in this business and how you choose to do it is your business. If you want to wait for the traditional route of airline sponsorship to return, then I hope you are sitting comfortably. If you want to be proactive and go get it for yourself, then good luck to you. Nobody, but nobody has the right to sit and judge those that choose to do either. Funny that the thread is full of people who are moaning about SSTR’s while those of us who have a SSTR are too busy working to contribute to the discussion.

Keep the number of landings the same as the number of take off’s

my friends whichever way you go I sincerely wish you the best of luck after all we are in it together. But also try and look at your personal circumstances and see what suits the best, it's a case of the glove that fits the hand.

There are numerous things we can do but equally lets keep a discrete list of things that we won't, can't or are unable to do. This should hopefully create a form of middle ground where our career path lies along. Remember we all leave school to make something of ourselves, some choose school, some armed forces, some self employed, etc. But at the end of the day when they renuite in 20 years time they have all (hopefully) got to the same point but along differing paths.

Whatever route is good for you one thing is for sure hard work but not as an expense but a long term investment it WILL pay back eventually.

Take care ...:O

The additional cost of a SSTR effectively killed my aspirations to become a commercial pilot. I had started out on the road to fATPL before Sept 11th 2001 and the idea of paying for type rating at that point was something only rich kids did who couldn't a job any other way. In fact prior to 11/9/01 there were heated debates on this very bulletin board about the evils of bonding. These days bonding seems all fair and nice in comparison to SSTR's. I am sure there are many here people who are defending SSTR's as they have either bought them themselves or work for organisations that sell them.

It is a funny industry really, a few years ago airlines would fork out for the cost of an IR, that then became a de facto requirement before anyone could apply for a job, then it was the MCC, now it is the requirement to pay for a Type Rating. It seems to be a constant set of sliding goalposts.

If we compare and contrast pilots with another safety critical industry whose training costs are similar and governed by government legislation, that of train drivers. The cost of training a driver to the point where they a legally allowed to drive a train and earn money for the company is approx. €90,000 (or £60,000 in old money). As far as I am aware there are no preserved railways offering to teach anyone to drive a train and then go off to try and get a job as a train driver with Virgin EWS or Scotrail. One of the main reasons for this is that the unions would never allow it. The first sniff of that happening and the railway workers in the UK would be on strike in a flash. I had this discussion with one of the senior union reps at Scotrail just last week. He was amazed that pilots have to pay so much for their training themselves, and that companies would effectively charge the employee to be able to work. How many UK companies are currently charging for Line Training & Line Time on type?

The argument that paying for the likes of a Bandit type rating is similar to todays climate I cannot accept. £3,000 for a Bandit type rating where, if I remember correctly, part could be funded by government grants similar to career development loans, is not the same sort of financial risk being run today. £25,000+ for 737/A320 type rating with no financial assitance available I cannot see being comparable. The cost of a type rating has risen exponentially with increasing legislation and the expansion of the numbers of investors expecting to reap a return out of the unfortunates who buy the training. The job market declined so far and so quickly that many people offered to prostitute themselves with the notion of gaining experience 'for free' (i.e. working without being paid), and it's now becoming the norm. Unfortunately there will always be those who will have the ability to spend their way into a job, not necessarily because they have talent ability or personality but because they have deeper pockets than others.

I am sure the whory old chestnut of the airline industry doesnt owe you a living will be trotted out, but that is just bollocks. If someone has worked hard and spent waht is to many "normal" people a fortune to get the necessary bit of paper, then it is a cynical and calculating employeer that requires the prospective employee to have to pay further for company specific training, be it a type rating or differences training.

The question is, where is the line in the sand? Pay for moving types within a company? Pay for a command course? A reduction in salary as hours on type are an asset to the pilot?

It really does come as a surprise to me that none of the pilot unions have sought to counter the rise of SSTRs. The practise of self-sponsoring type ratings will not be solved by pressure from those at the bottom of the system, it will only be successfully addressed by those at the top, under economic and union pressure. However, it is a reality and it will take time to eliminate it.

I'm now out of the running for gaining emplyment as a commercial pilot, and the primary reason for that is the rise of the SSTR. I could not justify to myself or my family spending another 25-30k on the possibility of employment.

I think it has all being said, over and over.
flypuppy has one thing right -
"The practise of self-sponsoring type ratings will not be solved by pressure from those at the bottom of the system, it will only be successfully addressed by those at the top, under economic and union pressure."

If it really is the scourge of declining industry T&C's it is up to the existing pilot body to fix it.
Good luck to all in whatever route they choose.
20driver

And what pressure from the economic side would that be?

The key fact in any free economy is, that if there's too many applicants for a highly desirable job, the conditions go down the whatsit in a big flush.

There's loads of people profiting from this situation, with the possible exception of the pilots naturally, so I don't see economic pressure in the forseeable future.

Only if too many prospective pilots decide that they've had it and go and study something else up to the point where the airlines can't find anyone to occupy row 0AB, that will be the day when things might turn. Only, I have severe doubts that this day is neigh...

Best

AN2 Driver

Flypuppy, Feel for you mate.

Carb heat on, The reason why I am against SSTRs and the reason for starting this thread has been said over an over again. Because SSTRs are an unnecessary expenditure pilots shouldnt have to come up with that for numerous reasons already mentioned, give companies a stronger grip on dictating what we are paid as pilots.

I cant believe so many people here actually want to pay for a SSTR let alone thinking working together so that we can all be paid more is a bad thing!!

AN2 Driver, there is a problem with your last statement. Too many pilots are being sold the dream by big training organisations and SSTRs without having a clue what they are geting themselves into! They all start training thinking that buying a SSTR is normal and that is the mis-information we need to stop, maybe by getting rid of SSTRs!

I have to ask this again... are there any more ideas out there on what approach I can take to BALPA re: Eliminating SSTRs so we can maintain Ts and Cs? There are many new posters here with obviously different ideas but if you look at the opening post, you will see what I am after. Your ideas!! Thanks,

OSOP

Doesn't really matter if we talk pilot schools or diet pills. In the end, it always matters what you want to believe, what dreams you have and that is what the marketing folk will paint in bright colours in front of you.

That is why I think fora like this one are important, because here and elsewhere you can hear the truth about such practices and THEN decide for yourself.

Reaching the goal of being a pilot has never been easy, nor do I think it should be, considering the responsibility a commander carries. Yes, I am worried as you are that in many cases getting there today is a question of money rather than talent. But again, that won't change as long as the perception of the job per se is as high as it still is, despite the continous efforts of many participants here to say the opposite. :} And until that changes, those who dream of a pilots career, which can turn into an obsession in many cases, will go any way they deem will get them there. Which in turn WILL be exploited by those who make their money with this.

Facts of life. I don't really see what a union or others can (or even should) change about that.

AN2 driver.

This is very true, but the ability to become an aircraft commander should be based on ability and performance not just the ability to pay. The filters to take the unsuitable aviators out of the system should be training and personality based not financial. At the end of the day, why should pilots have to subsidise a commercial organisation's training budget? (remember they can reclaim VAT on training - the individual cannot)


In the UK there are probably enough new positions for 75-100 people (to account for expansion or new start ups, in a good year), and movement further up the food chain accounts for probably about 300 places for more experienced bods moving out of night freight/instructing/regional turbo props (again in a good year). So all in all there is probably not much more requirement than 400 jobs per year available for new pilots this equates roughly to the annual output of 1 mid sized flying school. The likes of Ryanair/EZY may have skewed the figures slightly but not by much I would guess. So there is, and as far as I can see, there always has been an over supply of bright shiny newbies but now the rise of the SSTR is allowing those with more financial means the ability to get into a jet who may not be the type of people who will make decent commanders in the future. This just my supposition – based on a conversation I had with a 737 TRI, maybe someone in the training department from an airline can comment with more authority?
As for the money, there is nothing exceptional about pilots' salaries these days. A great many other jobs and professions can and do pay more, and without quite such an enormous investment up front. It is possible to earn over £100k in this country from flying, but the numbers who do are very small! For the majority of commercial pilots in UK, £40-50k is probably the most they'll see, and a great many have to make do on half of that.

An organised and effective union can change the terms and conditions for the better. I may be wrong in this, but I suspect if pilots were represented by say the TGWU instead of BALPA, Dan-Air pilots might not have been given such a shafting back in the early 1990's. It seems from a semi-outsiders point of view that pilots in general are willing to roll over far too easily to management demands and desires, as well as being more than willing to sell their granny and stab their colleagues in the back in order to get that elusive first job. There is nothing inherently wrong with being in a trade union (the Arthur Scargill type of union leader is now history), they can and do look after the rights, terms and conditions of employees, but like any democratic body they are only as good as the members they represent. The people in power need to know what the membership are concerned about and react accordingly.

Again looking at the UK railway industry, after privatisation, many companies tried to implement a number of questionable practices which were countered by the unions. I believe one company (it may have been South West Trains but stand to be corrected) did try to levy some sort of bonding for training but the reaction of the unions was total outrage and the idea was dropped rapidly. The unions point of view was that bonding would hamper their members ability to find work with other employers…

I suspect that in a couple of years this discussion will become superfluous anyway with the introduction of the Multi-Pilot Licence, which will effectively kill the current way of commercial pilot training.

Flypuppy,

I really respect your point of view but don’t you see that what you perceive as having killed off your aspirations to become a commercial pilot, actually gave life to the careers of many others who otherwise would not get the chance. SSTR’s are not compulsory and many airlines are hiring hundreds of people a year through the traditional route. I happen to think that any business has the right to expect its prospective employees to be up to a certain standard before they hire them, or before the employee expects to be hired. I am absolutely amazed that we think just because we do a multi IR we should expect to be taken on by a benevolent employer and trained, with a salary, so we can go fly their incredibly expensive equipment without any investment on our part – and please dont tell me the cost of a multi IR even with MCC is a credible investment on our part. If you compare the investment other professionals need to make in themselves to obtain their qualification and practice, it is much much more than the amounts we are being asked to pay. For donkeys years, the best firms in the world, expected professionals such as dentists, doctors solicitors etc. to pay a fortune up front to buy into their practice once invited to do so.

You ask where will the line in the sand be drawn. In my opinion that will be only where people like me say no to paying for further training. At the moment that is not at SSTR and I make no apology for it.

20Driver said it all for me a few posts ago. I certainly wont be waiting for my senior colleagues to come to my rescue and neither should you. T’s and C’s were eroded over time because these folks allowed them to be. They cashed in T’s and C’s to keep there own high standard of living and I suspect, regrettably, that most of us would have done the exact same thing.

On Speed On Profile.

Congrats on starting the thread.
While I can fully understand your stance and opinions on SSTR’s, you don’t seem to be able to understand mine. I don’t want you to approach BALPA or any other organisation for that matter in order to eliminate SSTR. I argued for years against the closed shop monopoly that you want to reinstate. I and hundreds of others like me now have an opportunity that wasn’t there before. It dosent erode T’s n C’s, the market does. We will be paid what the market says we are worth and if that is not the case, then we have the democratic right, and tools at our disposal to fight for them. But you cant do this from the outside so I chose to get in however I could and then if necessary, fight from there. You don’t wish to do this as you are probably young enough to wait in the hope that the old regime will return. I’m old enough to know that it aint gonna happen, but, and I mean this most sincerely, good luck to you in whatever you decide.

The last point I must address is the notion that SSTR trained pilots are somehow inferior. Flypuppy’s outrageous statement that …

“…the ability to become an aircraft commander should be based on ability and performance not just the ability to pay”.

I can only assume that this statement is either meant to inflame or is based on ignorance of how SSTR’s work. An SSTR is another avenue into a TRTO that wasn’t there before and once you have been accepted, you are subjected to the full rigors of a type rating. If you are clever and choose a TRTO that is affiliated to an operator, then that companies Ops manual is also thrown at you. It is totally forgotten that you are self funded once you start and if your not up to it, you will not pass. To suggest that there are pilots in the right seat that shouldn’t be there is unbelievable. There is absolutely not correlation between aircraft incidents or accidents involving SSTR pilots so the notion that they are inferior is, I’m afraid to say, sour grapes. If it were the case, then there should be some serious incidents by now. Why not extend this rational to university. Is someone with and engineering degree from Southamton inferion to an engineer with a degree from the Institute of Electrical Engineers and vice versa. Both are internationally recognised and both attained in completely different ways.

Too many of us are trained to stay inside the box. I say, in order to get inside the box, you must first think outside of it

No argument whatsoever from me here! I agree fully on how it SHOULD be.

The main problem I see there is that in the days of airline/military sponsored tuition, the washout occurred rather early in the game, or if it did at a later stage it did not really hurt the applicant too much financially. Main problem today is that I personally think most flight training organisations will carry unsuitable candidates MUCH too far, even tough it is clear to the instructors even during basic IR/CPL training that they will never amount to much. The INCENTIVE here is the problem, as of course the FTO's want to make as much money on them as possible. Again, that is exactly what you say. Same goes of course for the type ratings.

They shouldn't but they will before giving up the dream. And that is where the cash comes in. Why, in the eyes of a bean counter, should an airline pay for something the applicants are ready to pay for themselves? Never mind that they often enough put their financial future on line.....


Yep, that is exactly the reason why those who have already invested $$$$ to get to their CPL/IR/FATPL are so easy to "pursuade" to take that 3rd mortage to get the type rating....

Possibly.

In no means this discussion is limited to the aviation industry btw. There are other jobs which are open to this kind of ripp off by the training institutions. If you look at the recent boom in MBA training, with many people shelling out x k $ to get that piece of paper which was often enough portrayed to be the entry door to a carefree management career. Many who have spent their $ on this have had to realize that a) the fact that everyone and his dog have got the paper now has devaluated it to a mere "requirement" rather than something that set you apart from others and b) has in the end produced so many "bloatware" courses in it, that the actual knowledge to be gotten out of it has decreased.

Lemme give you another interesting example. Language tuition. I, for one, am not of the English mothertongue which you have certainly noticed. However, I consider myself fairly fluent. I never bothered to take CAE exams, simply because I had no use for them. However, I had to notice that people who have done some of the easier of these exams (first, advanced) got in front of me at certain levels just for the fact that they have the paper, which certifies less skill than what I have. So the only way for me to prove to a prospective employer that I have sufficient command of English would be to shell out money to get a certificate I don't really need.

The list goes on. In the end, it's all commercial reality. If bringing back sponsored training as a union requirement excluding those who did their own thing is the answer, I don't know. My experience shows that while it could do something sensible in one way, it might be quite injust to others who were dedicated enough to pay their own ways only to be told "we'd like to take you but the union won't allow it." Either way, the industry is not what it was, nor will it ever be like that again.

Best regards
AN2 Driver.

Stop paying to get a job!
 

Time has come for us to work together as Pilots!

When will we stop running errands for the airlines?

The insane reality with unpaid work, buying expensive typeratings or signing absurd deals of 'bonding' has to stop!

Experience and personality should be our events of competion - Not newly bought typeratings! What's the differense from paying for a typerating to simply just deliver a briefcase of money to the airlines?

Please! Stand up as one!

And fly safe.. :ok:

Before everyone goes off on another 'why should I pay for my training' tirade, perhaps its time to do a little research into alternative careers. Do you want to become a Doctor? a Lawyer? Chartered Accountant?. You will find that you will need to spend similar amounts of money, totally speculatively, with no guarantee of a job in order to get the qualifications, and then be expected to work on a minimal salary (if you are lucky enough to find a job) for at least the first 2 years.
Yes I'm sure we'd all wish it was different, but it ain't. It is what it is, deal with it or choose a different career.

Carbheaton,

I am not really sure where to start with your post.

What killed off my aspirations to become a pilot, was that I got to the stage of having my CPL issued and then having to make the financial decision to continue or stop based on the likelihood of gaining employment within a reasonable time after qualifying. A couple of years ago, it was accepted that the only way of getting on was to buy a type rating. I had budgeted a certain amount for exams/cpl/multi IR and MCC. The additional £25k which I had not budgeted for was just too much, and in my humble opinion a step too far.

I happen to think that CPL/IR/MCC is a certain standard. Airlines require pilots to fly their aircraft in order to make money. The cost of training staff, be it a secretary, maintenance engineer, pilot or accountant is a legitimate company expense. How quickly do you think companies would hire secretaries if the requirements included the secretary to provide their own laptop and training in company provided software? Aviation still holds a certain level of glamour and fantasy about it, but I have seen a few pilots private lives fall to pieces with the stresses and pressures that the job brings. Adding an additional financial pressure of having to pay for a type rating is not really fair on the employee – but that is just my humble opinion. I do not feel that comparisons with doctors, dentists or lawyers are particularly valid, as they do not have the ability to kill as many people in one accident as an airline pilot, nor do they carry the same amount of financial responsibility, liability insurance on aircraft runs into the billions I believe. It took Harold Shipman 20 years to kill off one 737’s worth of people….

Well what about the guy who has a little more money than you and decides he is going to pay for the command course you refuse to pay for? His line in the sand is just that little further up the beach than yours, so you will never get a command because of it. What then?

Also I have NEVER intimated that SSTR pilots are of inferior quality – but you seem to be a little sensitive to that, so who knows? Maybe there are some people kicking around who paid for a TR that were of borderline ability but they could pay a little more to get through? I do not know if that is the case, but I have heard from people within the industry that there are certainly some people who have had more money than ability.

It is not as if I am saying that anyone who has made it to the fATPL level has a God given right to a job – this is not my position and never has been.

It has always been the case that certain universities have been recognised as being of a higher quality in teaching certain subjects than others. I suspect someone who has gained an engineering degree at Imperial is likely to be more highly thought of than someone who graduated from one of the former polytechnics.

I will withdraw from the discussion now, I will simply say that I disagree with the concept of paying for a type rating, and feel that it is a reasonable cost for an employer to bear.

Sorry but it's a dog eat dog industry, and wannabe unity will never happen, end of story, if an airline offered me a position but first I had to work for 6 months for nothing and buy a type rating then I am going to do it, who wouldn't? that's the sad reality, I'm in this for me, not for everyone else as well :)

I have a friend training to be a vet. Approx 40K in debt, average starting salary is about 24k (so she tells me). Its not just us aviator wannabees who have it hard these days! :}

Excuse me chaps,
But you, 1st First Officer (who obviously ain't), are attempting to enter the airline industry, an industry that doesn't owe you anything, and quite frankly an industry that couldn't give a sh1t whether 1st FO decides to become a commercial pilot or not.
Accordingly you will have to excuse the industry if they don't hold the door open, roll out the red carpet, and make a cup of tea because 1st FO has decided to call in.
Industries & times change, whether you like it or not, and has already been mentioned it's a dog eat dog world and if you don't want to put in the time and money to reap the rewards later on then step aside because there's plently in the queue behind you that will and you're standing in the way.

So you think it's time to stop paying to become an airline pilot huh?

Then I wish you all the best of luck getting an airline to sponsor your FATPL, because that's part of the expense for a pilot, is it not?

Yep I totally agree with Gnirren.

People keep moaning about those who take it upon themselves to buy a type rating to try and boost their chance of employment, suggesting that this should be something the airline should be paying for (in an ideal world yeah that would be great but life isn't like that), furthermore why stop at type ratings, the argument should also stand for paying for your PPL, ME, CPL/IR, LOFT, MCC & CRM why pay for any of that, if we all stop the airlines will have to start up sponsorships.

If you believe that would ever happend dream on!!!!

Flypuppy.

You ask me…

Well what about the guy who has a little more money than you and decides he is going to pay for the command course you refuse to pay for? His line in the sand is just that little further up the beach than yours, so you will never get a command because of it. What then?

My line in the sand is still the TR as I believe, for the level of responsibility, earning potential and the chance to get started, it is not unreasonable. I can sit around and wait or get started using my own initiative. Unlike you I did budget for the TR as I expected to have to pay a certain LoCo. for a TR. The SSTR actually offered me more choice. I don’t think 'pay for command' will ever be an issue but that is my opinion based on my assessment of the industry.

Your Quote :

“Also I have NEVER intimated that SSTR pilots are of inferior quality – but you seem to be a little sensitive to that, so who knows?”

In fairness to me, I never said that you did but others have and if you look back, I was addressing those comments. However, you are correct that I am sensitive to those comments because it is using an argument that is unsubstantiated and has no basis in proof. Remember, On speed on Profile wants to lobby for the removal of a route into the cockpit that I for one would like to see remain.
I have a major problem with the automatic assumptions that those with the means to pursue a SSTR are buying their way into a cockpit that otherwise they wouldnt have a hope of getting into. The exact same filters are in place and the exact same checks and balances exist and those who are not up to it will be caught out.

AN2 Driver identifies the problem precisely. SSTR'ers who arent up to standard will be allowed to continue spending money by unscrupulous TRTO's and will have spent considerably more before being rejected - but rejected they will be. If you seek out the cheap TRTO's you are asking for trouble. There are plenty of TRTO's with good reputations, some endorsed by posts from other Ppruners on other threads and these TRTO's offer the candidate a selection process to make sure they are up to the programme and if there not than they are told so. I know two such people.

Flypuppy, you have however stated priviously.....

So there is, and as far as I can see, there always has been an over supply of bright shiny newbies but now the rise of the SSTR is allowing those with more financial means the ability to get into a jet who may not be the type of people who will make decent commanders in the future.


Again, absolutely no evidence what so ever for this assertion and while I know you have no respect for those who do a SSTR, it shows a much more worrying lack of respect for the selection process for commanders. If you really believe that unsuitable types will end up in command of aircraft, and by types I assume you mean those who choose not to balance a slug in the shape of a handle bar under their noses, then we have a much bigger problem to worry about - the complete disintegration of years of industry best practices in training, selection and on going performance evaluation throughout a pilots career. You are obviously unaware of the tens of people a week who fail sim checks and are rejected by the TRTO. The people who are rejected, including people with SSTR, don’t tend to post here – it’s a common human condition not to.

Your line may now be drawn carbheaton, but what you manifestly fail to understand is that once upon a time, the line was drawn at NOT paying paying for TR's. Then people like you moved the line.
I know your type - you no doubt think the sun shines from MOL's posterior, you would kiss his feet to be allowed fly his 737's, you refuse to go near REPA and you will wonder in a couple of years what the hell happened to your T's and C's, why the next guy is prepared to go that bit lower than you. :mad: :yuk: