Haughtney,

Yes thats good advice, however i've flown with and know a number of people that have gone down that route (1000hrs+, surely thats enough to get that interview) and still got zip. What are these poor ppl meant to do, theyve done the hard yards, trying to make ends meet on a !!!!e salary, but no one gives them a shot. They see Johnny 200hrs get the right seat coz he managed to secure some large amounts of cash. Eventually people get frustrated, and as the saying goes, if you cant beat 'em join 'em!

The sad thing is, accountants are running the airlines now, and simply they are trying save wherever they can. So now these poor chaps and lasses have to take the plunge and get them selves rated.......

Onthemove is correct 100%, not one SSTR guy is loyal to their company. That first company is viewed as a means to an end. IE - You screwed me so up yours, soon as my 500hrs comes and a nice job comes up im gone.

And who can blame them?

Personally, i admire people who've done the hard yards and have been left with no choice but to do this. They tried to do the right thing - no one gave them a shot. They made a decision, a very tough one, a huge risk, to get what they want out of life. Not many people have that kind of determination. Note i DONT include Mr and Miss Fresh outta Flight Training in this. They should get some experience before forkin out the dosh, as any experience is a good thing.

Pootang, yeah sure.....1000hrs eh? Try looking at other places around the world 2000-3000hrs before you even sniff the hint of kerosene. However having said that I know PLENTY of guys who have had the big call with under 1000 hrs...and better yet a few with around 750hrs, so it can and is being done.
Yes, personally I do blame them, they been sucked into the "zero to hero" dream by FTO's...but its a free country isnt it? they are free to ruin the T & C's of all those that have worked bloody hard to get to where we are.
From my perspective if I ever reach a position of responsibility Im going to positively descriminate in favour of the guys/gal's that have done it the traditional way...because it shows more about an individuals character that they can come through adversity, rather than how much the bank will lend them/daddy has in his holding accounts.

Yeah i know that in other parts of the world 2-3000hrs is normal, In Oz you can be flying crappy bug smashers with 5000hrs in hand and still get no where.

But i think the point of this thread is that it concerns the situation here in Europe, or even more specifically UK airlines. So 1000 hrs GA over here is a fair bit.

I too would probably favour a person that did it the hard way. But then your boss will say to you, we will take on X amount of non TR guys. The rest must be TR and focus on relatively low hrs on type so we can put them on a cadet (ie cheapo) salary. What will you do then. Your gonna have to do it. Nothing is black and white. Theres many shades of grey. And when you get into that position you seek, your gonna have to still satisfy those above you otherwise you wont be in that position long.

Regards

On Speed O P, great poll idea and an interesting thread. With regard to your qustion re BALPA's response to this growing 'problem' ( there arn't many of the pollsters who think SSTRs are a good thing!!!!) I thought you might be interested to know the following. It must be a yr ago now, but I wrote to Mr M Granshaw, the BALPA head honcho, to express my concern at the proliferation of SSTRs and was interested to ascertain BALPA's position, and what it intended to do to address the problem. He never replied (assuming that he recd the letter) and I am in process of drafting a further letter. You also might be interested to know that Mr Granshaw is not, and to the best of my knowledge, never has been, a professional pilot!!! This I find quite astounding!! How on earth can he be expected, let alone relied upon, to represent our interests?! I am a former instructor and regional tprop driver who recently got a lucky break into the big time - I always felt and still feel, that BALPA makes a bloody poor show of representing the interests of instructor members and the guys/gals in the smaller outfits. Instructor's terms and conditions are, with a few notable exceptions, quite disgraceful. What has BALPA ever done to improve their lot? Yes, all this and more is going into another letter and I'll be happy to pm you his response - if I get one. Rgds, Sid

Why is it, whenever I hear anything about BALPA it is negative, is it because they are a largely inept ineffective organization the butt of (UK) Line Pilot jokes? Shurely not!

As for SSTR, people who pay for these are the scum of the flying world. I am fully sure BALPA would be in full support of them.

To be against SSTRs is one, to insult the guys walking that road is another.
All this "get of one's arse" "zero to hero" "hard way" crap sounds good when having a beer, but is simply too naive. Every day without a job means loss of income. So you want to get it.. fast. Now nobody came yet with the idea that you have extra bargaining power if you paid yourself. Now the airlines have absolutely ZERO to bond you. If its no good at the airline, you leave.

Onthemove...yep your spot on as far as my path to where I am at the moment....in this part of the world it took me 2 yrs from license conversion to the jet...in the interim I flew T/Props..and was bonded (which is not ideal but is a far more equitable path as it means you have a job..rather than speculating on a T/rating and hoping for a result)
But I ask this question again, where the hell has this expectation of straight out of flying college and straight into the RHS of a jet? (the majority of SSTR's are sourced from these candidates). Having been in those shoes a few years back my opinion remains unchanged...you progress according to your ability and experience, anything else is a pipedream! Why do you think it is now that airlines want crews now to be line trained?..there are 2 reasons.
1. Obviously the cost...the bean counters are looking at any option to reduce their tyraining overheads.
2. The training risk...ask some of the line trainers at Easy about far behind the curve the CTC guys coming through with minimal hours and no real experience other than 40hrs in the sim, half a dozen cross countries, and an IR test have been.
One the problem as I see it is the level of expectation, that starts at the FTO's..but also stops at the frontdoor of those who are prepared to invest thousands in training without doing any real research. PIlot Pete, Scroggs, Luke Sky Toddler, have all posted on here about the very same thing. I put it to you One that my son (if I ever have one:eek: ) will certainly have that goal of flying a big shiney jet, he wont however think that it is his god-given right to finish training hand over £25K and waltz into a RHS jet job, because he will understand that this is the exception rather than the rule, and like anything he will have to learn his trade.
Absolute tosh...this is a debate, no one is getting personal here, as the survey says most of us in the industry dont agree with current state of affairs:ok:

Hi Everyone, been away for a week on training so just catching up. Its good to see everyone debating and not insulting! It is even better to see that we actually have a common goal that is for the most part "being against SSTRs"

Pressman, my pathetic attitude, is to save the future Ts and Cs of airline pilots. I dont personally care if you have a problem with this. If you think I should spend my time on something more constructive, I would like to hear what you think that should be. That was the point of this thread and poll!!

Identing & Pressman, have you ever had to fly an aircraft when everything has gone wrong and you have no-one to back you up. I have, and I am glad it was not a 'big shiny jet', just after I got my FATPL and just after the safety pilot got the boot. This is a thread/debate on how we can protect our future Ts and Cs, not about the ability of cadet SSTRs. Surely you can see my opinion was inferred when I started this thread! Can either of you tell me why this is so personal to you? Why do you feel so threatened? I am only trying to save our terms and conditions, YOURS INCLUDED. We are after all, all pilots!! Surely you can see this!

sidtheesexist, Jolly good form! check your pms!

OSOP

Tugging Pilot
 

Well OSOP, further to my PM I'll rant in public! My dodgy maths of 30 secs ago based on the then latest poll figures, suggested that 70.13 % of pollsters are against SSTRs - wow, that's a surprise. What really pees me off is the way people hijack these threads with their own agenda and wander off topic and often end up in slagging matches! So based on the premise that SSTRs are a BAD thing (backed up by the poll) what are BALPA (the organisation that many of us subscribe to in the vain HOPE that they will represent OUR best interests in a dilligent and professional manner) doing to combat their proliferation??? I'm not suggesting BALPA can, but it would be nice to be sure they were doing everything in their power to do so. Unless I'm mistaken, the point of this thread was not to justify one's own personal decision re SSTRs but to explore what might be done to end them (with/without BALPA's assistance).

Let's just get one thing in to perspective here......

297 have voted out of a total of 5464 views. Something tells me that most people are bored with this thread and don't bother to vote.....

Flopsie, if this thread is so boring, why are you reading it? People are voting at a rate of 19 per day, mostly against SSTR's. I fail to see your point!

elirich, This thread is to try and guage opinion on SSTRs and the question has been asked.... What can we do with regards to maintaining Ts and Cs.? I am trying to get some fodder, to present to BALPA to see if they will do something about it. Im not sure what you were trying to get across. Do you have any positive suggestions that I can put to them?

OSOP

Is protectionism partly to blame
 

OSOP

Thank you for paying attention to the very minor diversion that I was trying to create, to what has been a very intense and emotive debate so far.

I admire greatly what you are trying to achieve sir, even if I only agree with half of what you are saying or what you believe. However, if you will permit me, I would like to avoid expanding upon the details of what we agree and disagree on. I cannot help but feel that whatever I will say has already been said before, by both sides of the argument. Even if I do harbour a niggling belief that I could add something to that particular debate, I resist the temptation to indulge myself as it is very unlikely that you (and your followers, and to some degree I am one of them) or your adversaries are unlikely to see things differently. We are humans after all and it is a very rare man or woman indeed who will try to see things from other points of view. In fact it could be argued that it is our single minded resolve that makes us, as human beings, the master species. However I will say that Darwin once said that it is not the fittest or the most intelligent that survive, but those most willing to change and adapt (I have not quoted him verbatim – but from memory). You sir no doubt, somewhere along the line, had to adapt or you would not be where you are now. You also mentioned that you were not sponsored either – so am I right to assume that you did pay for at least some of your training? So now you expose yourself to the question as to just how much of our own training must we take on board.

I am getting to the point, even if I am taking the scenic route here. I could, contentiously, say that YOUR actions, in the past, have ruined younger generations chances (or those as yet without jobs – I also note that you are not too long in the tooth). Where did the rot start, so to speak? Should the earlier generations of pilots started paying for their own CPLs or ME/IRs or for that matter their ATPLs or MCCs. If earlier generations had held fast, perhaps then the fashion for passing the burden of training costs would have slowed somewhat. Maybe it never would have become what it has now. Like I said, I can only assume that you are also guilty of paying for your training to some degree. Why has that not had an effect on terms and conditions?

The question then is one of what should be paid for. You will probably say that anything after an MCC is wrong, but this is all debatable. I could cynically, say that pilots should only pay for a PPL and a small amount of hours building. The many sides of the argument could sit at their computers and fire accusations at each other and still not resolve this issue or find a meeting of minds. However, I digress.

However, it is my contention that that is not what we should be doing. Oldest trick in the book……Divide and Rule…and perhaps the airline owners are truly loving all this. I would prefer that we all stop fighting each other, achieve some real solidarity and start trying to gain some real obtainable results. All is not what it seems I fear or suspect. As always it is far more complicated than that. We are never ever ever going to stop, nor should we expect them to, (nor should we ostracise them for doing so) paying for type ratings.

Firstly I believe that this is happening because of a surplus of wannabe pilots (no great revelation there). There is a large backlog of pilots who have come through training who have been put on hold because of 911. Secondly, I believe because of the advent of budget airlines, exploiting this issue, by cherry picking pilots and investing as little as they have to, the situation has been exacerbated. That said, I believe that it will not go on for long, nor do I believe that many airlines are succumbing to such tactics – it is because there are so many wannabes out there owing to the downturn in recruitment after 911. Lastly, I believe that the British, Irish and American pilots are particularly susceptible to falling victim to such prevailing conditions. Why? Because airlines from countries other than these, are more likely to adopt protectionist recruitment policies (in a very surreptitious way). As a result it is fuelling this fashion amongst airlines which will eventually seep through to other nations, if it hasn't already.

That said, I suspect, but do not know for certain, that it is easier for young wannabes in other countries to get their first jobs as the airlines in their countries are losing pilots to British, Irish and US airlines which are happy to cherry pick. Pilots in other countries are not having to pay for type ratings (although no doubt there are some – but on a lesser scale) because the demand still exceeds the supply.

My suggestion would be for BALPA to perhaps commission a study on this; after all they would be in a good position to do so. Then perhaps (although, granted it would be difficult to legally do it – free movement of workers and all that) we could force BALPA to petition the European parliament to stop airlines (in England) from recruiting pilots from outside the UK in order to protect our industry/profession. Or maybe we could investigate why so few of the continents airlines are refusing to take on pilots from nations other than their own and in reparation apply pressure to them in order to rectify the situation. I feel that this cross pollination, this free market policy is what is causing trouble in the short term. Free market policies are good but do not suit every need. There are some industries that need protecting from the ravages of its effects. The piloting profession is one of them (particularly susceptible to it I would say) and I truly suspect that if the two major budget airlines had been initially based on the European continent, it may have been a little different.

This is just one of my suggestions. If there is an interest, I have a few others, but I have gone on long enough and have probably bored enough of you already. That said, when I return in a few days and if there is an interest, I would be happy to espouse a few more. However, like I said before, this policy is not based on a racist stand point – nor a protectionist one (as contradictory as that may sound) – you have my word on it. Nor do I not want to see pilots in other countries suffer. I just feel that allowing a free movement of pilots has not served us as pilots on the whole. I feel that we would all be in a better position if it was harder for airlines to steal experienced pilots from other sources. In the railway industry where this went on a great deal unions forced train companies to come to gentlemens agreement not to do so. This could be another alternative to bonding. Otherwise where is the incentive to train then? It is left to the smaller airlines that find it hard to handle the costs and as a result have started to look at wannabes pockets and bank accounts.

But please, let us stop picking on the wannabes. They are only doing what they can to secure their future dreams. You yourself have paid for your training, and did so in a climate when it was easier….yes it was…. to get a job. It is not their fault that the economic climate is ruining pilots Ts & Cs any more than it is that BA pilots’ privileged position, with regards to pensions, is not their fault either. I know you feel passionately about this and I admire you immensely because of it, but you will never achieve your aims by making them pariahs. They need your support, not your disparaging remarks. And I also find it hard to believe that we have so many saints on this forum. Am I truly to believe that you would act in a different manner if you were in their circumstances? Tackle the bigger picture please, if you truly care about your Ts & Cs.

Kindest Regards to you all

EliRich

(although I would like to be known as ‘tugging pilot’ – but it would appear that I am not allowed to change my name…… oh well maybe I will set up a thread on that gripe)

Donning tin helmet.......................

I fail to understand the objection to SSTRs. If it is on some pseudo-serious basis such as safety and quality of training, the argument holds no water. No operator would be allowed to put someone on line without a comprehensive and validated assessment of their actual ability, and training to an accepted standard, followed by LPC/ Skills Test Etc., administered by a representative of the Authority.

An SSTR can, therefore, be seen only as a demonstration of commitment and, perhaps, of potential ability (and, therefore, minimiser of commercial risk) by a prospective employer.

If you don't have the money for one, I'm sorry personally but it's a tough old world out there.

As I say to my own children, usually a propos of table-manners, speaking style, etc. much though I might wish it were different (and I do): there's no such thing as an unfair advantage, just an advantage.

Good luck to aspirants, anyway.

Retires to bunker ..............................

Fokker

Did you pay for your training?

Paddy,

I fail to see the point of your question. However, since you ask it, yes I did; there has been no other way to become a commercial pilot since Hamble closed, to my knowledge. Sponsorship deals are usually deferred loans at no-or-low interest. I paid for mine with 12 years' service to my Country, which gave me, among other things, some invaluable flying experience, followed by a significant 5-figure sum of my own money for exams, IR, etc.

But I still don't see the point of your question.


:confused:


BTW, notice the lower-case 'f'; I'm just a little fokker, you see.

EI-RB

The answer will be when the City sees their multimillion pound investments sitting on the ground impersonating an advertising billboard and MOL's job on the line.


Blue Foot

If they do start paying for the rating then it will be in the form of a loan and the interest would be at a high rate to rip off the pilots, nowt at FR is a bargin.

Pressman,

Maybe so but how many take the job even if offered to them?

Once they look closely at the T&C's (exagerated in the interview) and speak to a few current FR pilots for a better view, not all turn up for the job. And how many are leaving?

Blue Foot

Not a debate!
 

Hi everyone, while I was away, this thread has drifted into a bit of a debate as to whether banning SSTRs is a good or bad thing. This thread is not about that, it is about ways in which we can maintain our Ts and Cs. I personally think that if we can get rid of the SSTR's then that will help give the pilot body a stronger grip on determining their Ts and Cs.

Those of you who are for SSTRs or who still want to be able to pay for a rating, why dont you come up with a way of making the pilot body more secure without getting rid of them, instead of jumping in telling us what we are doing is wrong and then leaving again! That was what this thread was about! You can help yourself by coming up with a way we can get rid of 'the rot' (as some here see it) but I think the end conclusion is the one that I and others here have already come to.


Tuggin Pilot,
Yes, I did pay for my training, up to MCC but that is where I drew the line. I didnt think paying for my MCC was a good thing but unfortunately, there was no choice. I didnt start this thread to debate the actual pros and cons of this subject of SSTRs but I will say that it makes sense to draw the line in a sensible place. The MCC while not ideal, is probably the best place to stop paying for training. It is the best medium between company and pilot input. You make a very good point about the way to approach BALPA and I think it might be a good way to take the results of the poll to them. I am very interested in the other ideas you have. There are very few here that actually have valid points!

Everyone: This thread was designed so that I can take the information of the poll to BALPA with one very specific point!

I personally think SSTRs contribute to the continual reduction in Ts and Cs for pilots so that is why I and others want to get rid of them. Please post me suggestions on how to do this. If you want to try and drift this into the usual debate that these threads turn into, please do it somewhere else. This thread is not a debate, it is a tool to obtain some information and hopefully some solidarity amongst pilots!

Cheers,

OSOP

fokker - ' If you don't have the money for one, I'm sorry personally but it's a tough old world out there.' Exactly! Another compelling reason to try and get the spread of SSTRs stopped!!!!!!!! Otherwise, one's ability to further oneself in this business is LARGELY DETERMINED by the SIZE of one's WALLET!

fokker,

Have you paid for any type rating or just your training upto fatpl?
You were lucky that you may have received a 'golden handshake' from your time in the service of your country to pay for any training you have undertaken. Most people are not that lucky.

Just incase you ask, i paid for my intial training to fatpl, but have always managed to secure employment with a bond. That doesnt mean to say i have always been in work because of my principle of not wishing to pay for 'professional training'

I can't believe I'm doing this but ...............

Wing&prayer,

I paid for ALL my training up to FATPL level - a long time ago - and have been in the happy position of amortising other ratings by bond. Oh, and redundancy, BTW.

I did not receive any 'golden handshake' from my military service; what I did receive was a one-off gratuity, a payment in lieu of a pension which I do not and will never have from HM Government. The idea of a gratuity was that it be invested to eventually buy an annuity. Sadly, the DSS has/had other ideas and insisted that it be spent on day to day expenses which, as you may know, do not conveniently come to an end at the same time as employment! Furthermore, a significant proportion of the rest was spent on IR, hours-building, exams...you know the drill.

My point in general is simply this: No-one owes you a career as an airline pilot. It is simply a business for the proprietors and could just as well be a car factory or a cake shop, it doesn't matter. If they can continue their trade and get their employees to buy their own training then bully for them. Keeps the accountants happy, dunnit?

If you wanted to be a barrister, you would have to fund your first degree and then find upwards of £35K for the Bar Conversion Course. If you want to be an actor, you will have to do a succession of crappy jobs in rep., living in squalor on almost no money, before - just maybe - getting a break. The list goes on; you get the point.

If, before you start, you can foresee a point at which you will have to stop 'investing', don't start. Your choice.

Sadly, we no longer live in a world where you can pass an interview and pitch up at Hamble for goodness knows how long on a salary and drift into a lifetime career with BOAC and retirement at 55 on a huge pension.

It's nobody's 'fault' and , certainly, nobody's 'right' to be a pilot. It's just the way the world is. Aspirants have to just check the facts, compare them with how badly they want to do it and get over it.

It's called 'life'.

Well said fokker.
 

Can't see what all the fuss is about. You put it well, and I think most would agree.

Roy Hudd,
Can you not read? The poll at the time of my post shows 81% of people here are AGAINST SSTR's!

I have clearly stated that if people have other ideas to help maintain Ts and Cs for the future, I would be happy to hear about them so I can present them to BALPA. Instead of you guys trying to justify SSTRs, why dont you use your time to come up with ways to get rid of them, so that no one has to pay for a Type Rating and so that our Ts and Cs wont continue to take a dive!

How many times does it have to be said? This is not a thread to debate weather SSTRS are good or not. Its a thread on how to take an idea to BALPA which helps all pilots maintain their Ts and Cs.

I think most would agree! (And I have the poll to back that up!) :hmm:

OSOP

Once again, I make the point -

8629 views - 399 votes = NO INTEREST

Ever heard of pi**ing in to the wind???

Flopsie, you have yet to come up with a valid idea as to how we can help BALPA to maintain or dare I say it, increase our Ts and Cs. Why dont you lend a hand rather than criticise and tell us all something useful.

Just to make myself perfectly clear, and using your analagy. I am very definately pissing into wind, against people like you! I am doing it so that other pilots dont have to and I do it proudly because if people like you dont want to stand up and be counted then people like me and others here, have to!

I do note that not one of your posts on this thread has any worthwhile contribution to make. They all say that it cant be done and say or imply that 'I am bashing my head against a brick wall' before telling everyone that you are bored of all of this and so is everyone else.

If that is the case, vote with your feet and stop reading this thread, you dont have to read this and but you keep coming back to tell everyone how boring this is.......... that is unless you have an alterior motive.

Are you by chance an SSTR provider, trying to promote apathy amongst pilots? It is the only reasonable explanation for your posts! You have been a Pruner for a long time so why dont you tell everyone here what your real motive is! Ive told you what mine is but it seems strange that you come out of retirement to tell everyone how boring this thread is!

OSOP

Id venture to say Flopsie is a SSTR pilot who now feels miffed he spent the money..and probably didnt have to:}

I am simply pointing out the reality of today's situation and no amount of jumping up and down by you or anybody else is going to change that. You will have to face the fact that SSTRs will always be here and there will always be those with the motivation and attitude to progress with their careers who will find a way to finance the training..... And there will always be those who don't have the motivation and attitude who will just bitch and complain.
Recently posted by someone who has the M & A...

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=219077

I spent the money and I because of that I got a job so I'm not miffed at all and BTW haughtney1, what makes you think I'm a 'he'???

Flopsie..it is you who have made the mistake.....what makes you think I can think?:}

Seriously for a moment, whether you are happy or not is not really my concern, of greater consequence is the dearth of people who feel that by throwing a large chunk of cash at a TRating they will be more employable..the evidence suggests that this is NOT the case (unless you feel that you are only capable of working for the likes of Ryanair..and other 2nd or 3rd tier operators) and that more and more candidates are being bonded, and trained by the airlines themselves.

P.S. so your a girl then?

H1,

Sadly, we cant expect people like flopsie to help the cause. He or She (whatever they would like to be) wont stop to look at the bigger picture. I have offered him/her two chances to come up with good ideas and his/her offering has been absolutely zero.

Flopsie, mine or anyone elses motivation to pay for a TR or not has nothing to do with this post. My motivation is to maintain Ts and Cs for myself and fellow pilots. I think the best possible way is to gain support to ban SSTRs and then approach BALPA to see what they will do. Your motivation obviously comes from your wallet. If I wanted to, I have both the motivation and the money to complete an SSTR and line training if I felt the need but I dont because it will bite me and others in the long term!

So flopsie bought a TR and got a job, we are over that, you still refuse to offer useful advice on MAINTAINING Ts and Cs (which should be foremost in your mind as a pilot) so why do you keep posting here. You havent answered any of my questions, especially my first one. I am still waiting!!

OSOP

There is a simple way to bust the SSTR, but you guys won't like it.

The reason a SSTR is attractive is it gets you in sooner and starts you up the seniority ladder. As seniority governs everything it makes sense to lay out some extra dosh to get in early. Somewhere on these pages someone pointed out his 25K type rating earned him an extra 2k per month over what was on offer elsewhere plus a several year jump at getting the job he wanted. Not a bad return on investment and as long as that is the case people will vote with their brains and their wallets.

Simple solution - redo the seniority ladder to reflect the applicants total experience level. This would mean the chap who has done "the right thing" by working away as a FI, TP FO etc for 5 years will get rewarded by being bumped up the ladder over the rich blighter who paid his way in. Not to mention the cadets, the lucky non type rated ones with low times and others with an inside line.
Of course there is about as much chance as this happening as my becoming pope. The reason is this solution means people in the inside with the jobs would have to give something up for the good of the cause as opposed to dumping it all on the poor wannabe's with their noses pressed on the window.

Personally I really see no reason that the SSTR has any impact at all on T&C's. T&C's are between the existing workforce and the management. Don't like them leave or withdraw your labor. This whining about SSRT's sound like a losing team blaming the refs. Funny how it is always the losing team that blames the ref.

Want better T&C’s – work for it. You are on the inside with the leverage. Get your act together and stop blaming others

Well said...
 

>>Want better T&C’s – work for it. You are on the inside with the leverage. Get your act together and stop blaming others.<<

Well put, 20driver.

Many years ago I was offered a command on a 707, but there was one slight problem...no type rating.

So, off I went to PanAmerican, and in two months, and a rating in hand, I found myself in the LHS of the B707-320 with a brand new carrier ...and in no less than four months, the rating was paid for (lots of overtime).

You have to make your own luck, not sit around waiting for someone else to make it for you.

been there done that....whats next people against self-sponsored commercial, or atp, :confused:

20driver, You have a good point but I do agree that it would be difficult to implement the idea you are suggesting.
As SSTRs become more prevalent, companies have more of a stronghold over their pilots. This is especially the case when you get kids out of school who will get in debt to the tune of £100,000+ to get into the right hand seat of an airline and pay line training. If this becomes the norm then things will only get worse as the companies realise tightening the screws can be done in other places because these people are desperate to start paying off their massive debts and will acept any job! This is where I can see a shortcomming in future Ts and Cs. If we dont stand up and be counted, and our fellow colleagues are always willing to sell us out to get employed (just so they can pay off their massive and ill thought out debts), their will be no 'inside' pilots. Every pilot will always only be a lone voice! There is no need for SSTRs, people who are good enough with 200 hours can still be picked on their ability, the only difference is the airlines will realise they are employing people who wont bow to their every whim.

Thankyou for the good ideas.

411A, With all due respect.... I have made my own luck and I have done it without paying for a type rating. I am of the age but with more experience than most of the people considering SSTRs and I dont have the need to buy an SSTR so I dont buy what you say. I got my experience through 'making my own luck'. In a one off special case like yours, it obviously worked but the LoCo operators in Europe are creating a problem which if not curbed, will IMHO lead to reduced Ts and Cs for the duration of my career. I cant comment on the exact situation in the US.

OSOP

OSOP, what do you feel about someone like myself who raised some cash by getting a small grant and then paid for a Bandeirante type rating followed by freelance work as an F/O until a full time Bandit job became available?

It may not have been a SSTR as you picture it but I certainly gave myself a better chance of a job by going out and getting rated on a type that was, at the time, fairly common and then canvassed all those operators. By "making my own luck" I was in a position to get that first coveted flying job.

It got me on the bottom rung of the ladder and after that it was much easier to progress up the food chain. Did I erode anyones T's & C's? Did I jump a queue?

Wow, this thread is getting some big PPruners in now. How did that happen??

Danny, (I find myseld using this term again) ...... With all due respect ......Rightly or wrongly, your actions maybe did help contribute to the situation new entrants face to the airline businsess now. Maybe they didnt but I am sure you will agree that the fact that SSTRs are becomming more prevalent had to start somewhere. Maybe the guy who employed you on the Bandit knew you paid for your type rating and then gave the idea to the next guy and the next ...... and eventually, the lo cos out there. Maybe one day virgin and BA will have to go that low! Who knows?

The statement "make your own luck" originally came from 411A, I used his words in my reply so that he could better understand my position.
Make your own luck in my dictionary means hard work, canvassing, networking but most definately not buying a type rating.

I have another (hopefully) 25 - 35 years in this industry. If this industry becomes the rich kids game that some on PPrune call it then Ts and Cs will continue to take a dive. Danny, You have probably 1/3 of my career life left in this industry and I would imagine your Ts and Cs are at a level that should leave you in a comfortable position. I and others of my age dont have that comfort and need to do everything possible to maintain our future Ts and Cs at a level which if left to do their own thing, will probably be much less than yours. Maybe they wont but its a risk that I dont really want to take. I seriously dont mean any disrespect when I say that and I hope you dont take it as disrespect, it is an honest gut feeling that I have and my view from the bottom, struggling to the top is very different to yours!

I dont see why I have now had two big names here (amongst others) thinking that this thread is a personal crusade to attack the character of those that buy SSTRs. ITS NOT! The poll here suggests 80%+ of people are against SSTRS so why are we not doing more to try and get rid of them, collectively. At the very least it would mean we wouldnt have to fork our an extra £20K - £30K for training costs not to mention that airilne managers would have to pay good wages to get good pilots! At what point is it acceptable to stop paying. Flight training, TR, line training, f/o time???? I think it should stop at flight training!!!

Danny, Do you have any idea or approach to this problem. I and others seriously value your input considering your experience in the industry!

Cheers,
OSOP.

The figures
 

For those that are interested (not you flopsie):
I have broken the figures down.

Overall:
For SSTRs - 19%
Against SSTRs - 80%
No idea - 1%

FATPL no Jet Airline Exp:
For SSTRs - 25%
Against SSTRs - 75%

Experienced Commercial Pilot with no Jet experience:
For SSTRs - 14%
Against SSTRs - 86%

Pilots with Jet experience:
For SSTRs - 19%
Against SSTRs - 81%

People not holding professional licenses:
For SSTRs - 11%
Against SSTRs - 89%

Edited to be correct. How did I get my medical??? Thanks wondering.

Looks to me it´s the other way around. The majority is against SSTRs

It´s a shame only a minority voted including me. Not that it would change anything but eveybody should have an opinion about this topic. And it just takes seconds.

By the way, I was curious about one of the advertisers here on pprune and the associated costs. They offer an A320 type rating+500h line training w/o pay and no guarantee after. And all for only € 66000 :yuk: :yuk: :yuk:

"make your own luck" - takes on a whole new meaning under those conditions. Sounds more like 'no money, no funny' to me.

Where are we heading to? I reckon, some people have a 'situational awareness' problem. Reminds me of those 'Will fly for food' T-shirts. Oh no, these days you even have to bring your own food :mad:

There seems to be no doubt that the majority are against SSTR's and lets face it, if you want to spend 20k to get a job then you are either filthy rich or have serious issues :sad:

However, this thread is about maintaining Ts and Cs. What hasn't been mentioned is this. The airline industry is arguably the most competative it has ever been, mainly due to the boom in low cost travel and the soaring price of oil. I have worked in the industry for 12 years and it has changed immensely. The beancounters are constantly looking to lower their costbase in an effort to survive and who knows, maybe make a profit. Lets say that SSTR's were no more. These airline bosses are not going to take on the cost, but are more likely going to look how they can absorb them in other ways and perhaps this is a greater threat to our Ts and Cs. Even now many airlines that don't have SSTR's have reduced wages for the first two or three years or so. And on top of that you are bonded.

Most of us agree with what you say OSOP but even if SSTR's were banned I suspect that the airlines would still recover their cost one way or another, particlularly the loco's. Unfortunately there is no such queue. Whether it is making your own luck or being a "rich Kid", as Danny says most do what they can to give themselves a better chance of getting a job. Sadly this makes it a fairly uneven playing field.