Pilot Strike at KLM?
 

I have reliable information that there is a looming dispute between KLM and the ex Air UK pilots that didn’t wish to join KLM mainline. It seems KLM have employed discriminatory tactics in dealing with this 130 strong portion of the workforce. The pilots have exhausted their goodwill and patience and are now in the final stages of grievance procedures. Next stop will be a ballot to strike.

As ex air uk this does interest me.
Do you have some more details e.g. status of pilots within the klm group?

Over the past few years there has been an awful lot of discrimination against the ex KLMuk pilots, no entry to mainline, attacks on the pension, cant recruit new "uk" pilots due to a document agreed by the dutch pilots union (VNV). Also this document called for the "uk" pilot force to reduce in numbers over a period of five years (KLM continue to recruit to expand!!), restrictions on promotions, denial of training and management jobs, (even when an ex uker is selected as the best man for the job!!!) the list is endless. Yet they are expected to fly the "fokker" aircraft to the same SOPs crew mixed with their KLM collegues.

This is a shameful abuse by KLM and the VNV and the UK pilots have had enough.

You're right angels , thats why the request for more info.
and blue pilot, I do very much sympathize.
klm/vnv does tend to keep the good stuff for a very select group.
other daughters have to work just as hard for a lot less.:yuk:

.......and there was me hoping someone was going to offer some good news and announce the death of City, sorry, !!!!tyhopper! Dreadful set-up in my opinion and personally would not be dissapointed to see the end of the arms length relationship they have with KLM, who are, otherwise, fairly ok. Would love to see the perfomance stats of Cityhopper alone and I bet it doesn't make for good reading.....

How about a straight job swap with all the dutch boys working for EZY in the UK.......

Hi autobrake3
Are you a Brit wanting the Dutch out of EZY, or a Dutchie wanting the Brits out of KLC ?
A mate of mine in KLMuk is happy to live and work in the Netherlands but deeply resents being treated as a second class citizen. I imagine the Dutch Boys in EZY get exactly the same deal as the Brits (and everyone else) in EZY. If only the KLM/KLC management were as enlightenend.
Remind me again of the origins of the word "apartheid"..............

''Apartheid'' !!
 

Well said , 3605.... , it is amazing in this day and age of the EU , level playing fields blah blah blah , that only in UK does nationality never matter in aviation.
If you have EU passport , relevant type rating , hours etc , you will edge out any poor Brit trying to make it in his home country. Can we make this same policy all over the EU ? Or can we all put up the same barriers instead ,just like the bad old days..which seem not to have gone away on the continent?
Sadly ,it always seems to be Pilots Unions which are causing the problems . If Balpa tried to enforce Nationality-based restrictions in the UK they would be hit by a ton of legislation. Why does this not apply elsewhere ? We all know which countries Union is causing the over-60's pilots to be prevented from freedom to ply their trade .Why is it allowed to happen ?
Its all cobblers.

sadly i wish this myth was not true but it is.

and as you made a reference to the French perhaps they would like to read this thread and see how KLM and the VNV deal with cross border mergers! useful information for them when Air France and KLM merge in exactly how do deal with it. Now lets see...... all KLM contracted pilots are to be treated the same as they treated the Brits.......... there would be an outcry!! national TV strikes, the VNV would be straight to IFALPA for support........ however i do believe the French have a greater sense of fair play, but maybe not....... only time will tell.

@ autobrake 3

Do you really think that the dutch pilots at EZY would like to go to the arrogant KLM where they have to work for at least 2-5 years as an releave pilot? :eek:

@ph-gjk
Frankly I don't care what the dutch EZY pilots want. I do know that you have no idea what you're talking about...

1) It is by no means a given that you start off as a relief- pilot. In fact, chances are that you'll start off as a co-pilot FK50/B737.
2) You'll find that the culture within KLM has changed dramatically within the past 15 years. Lots of new-hires are "free-market" (i.e. non_ KLM flightschool grads). It is no longer required to play golf on layovers... :hmm:
3) As a KLM pilot I'm appalled at the deal KLM UK pilots were handed. It is simply not the way you treat people. Then again, I'm not a manager and never will be. Having said that, KLM UK pilots are but a small group within the pilot-body and there were other considerations, I'm sure. You'll always get the short end of the stick if you're in the minority. It's called "democracy" :sad:
We're not all bad you know...

Try to make some informed statements next time. :ok:

Many KLMuk pilots would prefer to live in the UK and many Dutch pilots would prefer to live in the Netherlands, circumstances have for many dictated otherwise so please do not suppose xenophobia on my part.

Maybe a tad old fashioned but . . .
 

. . . what is wrong with giving priority to Brits for jobs in the UK? It is kind of sensible is it not? Would you rather see Brit pilots on welfare or driving a cab whilst foreigners fly our national registered aircraft? What is the matter with a little protectionism - it would appear we in the UK are the ONLY ones who do not practise it! Try getting a pilots job in France; not that one would want to BUT . . .

I agree with fireloop on this one. As an ex KLM uk pilot who moved to KLM I am also saddened by how the Air Uk guys have been treated over the last 3 years, worse still that people who have become good friends have felt the only option is to leave. No company is perfect and any person who wishes it upon the KLM pilots to be treated the way the Air Uk guys were, well, shame on you is all I can say. Some comments posted here really should be taken with a pinch of salt! As for joining the company and having to be a relief pilot for 5 years, would normally be the case I think but direct entry Captains are being recruited right now so things do change!

My knowledge of the deal offered to ex KLMuk pilots is as follows:
1) Pilots over age 46 were not offered an opportunity to apply (age discrimination);
2) The deal included an option to transfer to Buzz, which KLM were at the time secretly selling off to Ryanair (an option KLM knew ex KLMuk'ers would never have the chance to exercise);
3) The deal called for compulsory demotion of F100 captains who would never have sufficient seniority in KLM to get back to the LHS of their own type and never have enough years left before retirement to make up the earnings lost by demotion.
If the reality was that the deal was unmissable, 190 pilots must have been asleep at the time.

Indeed Ennie, direct entry captains are being recruited. The irony is that KLCuk F50 captains were not eligible to apply for a job that they were already doing................

Ennie,

Only reason those direct entry captains are hired is that non of the resident pilots want to take it, Direct entry Capt. F50 will move to the right seat when changing to Any other equipment, and their FO's will make more money.

Oh yes and you have to be a graduate from a "preffered Training School"... Hmm free market? (Don't worry i am not in the running for a Blue ribbon any more, deemed too old now, and moving to other things :8 )

I sympathise with the KLMuk guy's, they have been robbed!

I Totally agree with Fireloop and Ennie the way KLM have treated the ex KLMuk guys has been very bad indeed, one should never wish that on anyother worker in our industry. Lets hope it can all be worked out as striking is not a good option for anyone to get into in the longrun as it does everyone damage.

Pointer & 36050100, I think your slightly miss guided, you are correct in saying that no-one wanted to take the position of FK50 command, this was due to the fact that a FK70/100 co-pilot would be earning the same money as a FK50 captain (on dutch contract), this has now been re-negotiated... secondly those positions could have been filled by a British pilot but only if he was willing to sign the KLM contract if he/she did not want to go through the direct entry interview process but you forget you would be applying for a Dutch contracted job anyhow (pro's and cons im not going to go into this one). The direct entry requirements did not require you to come from an approved school so it is an open market. Yes your right you would have to adopt the right hand seat again for a new aircraft type that is called SENIORITY it keeps everyone happy.

I am one of the ex-KLMuk guys to sign up for the mainline contract and for me it has been one of the best jobs i could have ever dream't for, though i do admit it only was only good for a few ie co-pilots.

What i am supprised about is how some of my ex-KLMuk colleagues bully and ostracise me on an everyday occurance since i signed the new contract, i would love to know how i have personally changed and deserve this. One cant even go into the old NH (AIRuk bar) Hotel without getting abuse.

I hope that in the long run BALPA and KLM can find a solution that will work for both parties. At the moment we are 2 work forces doing the same job and thats not right after all.

You are right it is disgusting the way these guys have been treated. Almost 2000 years combined service for the KLM group and they are been treated like second rate citizens.

Hopefully a resolution can be found

It is truly shocking but was anybody really in any doubt that working for any national airline outside the UK, especially the Dutch with the VNV, was ever not going to end in tears.

Lufthansa the same. The expat guys flying for cargo who were there via German Cargo or other contracts etc made to feel like second class citizens. Told can convert to MD11 but course only available in German language.

Frogs the same.

They can come over here and fly for us but my God they make it awfully difficult for any reciprocal deal!!

Let's not forget that it's not a British vs Dutch dispute, or even an British pilots vs Dutch pilots dispute. It's a an issue of mistreatment of ex KLMUK personnel by KLM management, so PLEASE let us refrain from xenophobic remarks. Since the majority of VNV menbers happen to be KLM pilots, The VNV looks after the interests of these pilots. From timw to time this is also a point of frustration for pilots working for other airlines in the Netherlands, then again; there are similar cases with BALPA.
There are ways to get into European airlines as a Brit but one must often master the national language. I admit that non-Brittons have an advantage here since most already speak english. But as long as you master german or french, you can apply at other airlines. I work for a german airline and had to learn german, yes it would be nicer if all manuals were written in english but hey; that's just the way it is.
I support the exKLMUK guys and hope that they will get what they deserve.
my 2 cents...

The Flying Saucepan has got it spot on! As pilots, we must always try to ensure that every single one of our colleagues, whoever they are, is treated in a uniform fashion by the management. They should have the similar contracts, T's & C's, rights for promotion etc... Only national laws should prevent identical contracts. The only people we should be wary about are those who legally shouldn't be here working on shonky "flagging-out" practices.

But as an asside, how about this? 300 or so applied for a direct entry or accelerated command (FK50), 80 were selected for a company medical and fifty or so offered a postion. The rest were considered to be "not up to standard". However, many of these were, and probably still are, working for Denimair as TRE/I's and Line Trainers. However, due to a shortage of trainers in KLM, line training of some of the new F/O's will have to be out-sourced to... :eek:

Or this? None of the UK Pilots working for KLM as a F50 Captain could apply for their own job as they aren't qualified! :ugh:

Lastly, only those with the hours requirement for an ATPL, plus training at either KLS (KLM's Flight School), NLS or the Dutch Armed Forces were able to apply.

So everybody sems to agree that klm/vnv treated the ex airuk pilots very badly (I for one do).
So shame on all of us ,for not standing up for this group in the past.
And I hope we will help them when they try and rectify the situation.

Flying Saucepan well done u have hit the nail on the head what a great post......Its not about who is Dutch and how is British but about two Unions. The VNV looking after the Dutch (which they do a bloody good job at) and BALPA trying to get the best deal they can for the British work force. The big problem is that KLMuk has become a holding company basically supplying KLMuk (contracted pilots) to KLM. No one can deny KLM could have solved this problem in a better way but what i think alot of people want to know is the following:

This problem stems way back at least 4 years ago with the splitting of the AIRuk work force into two (Yellow line [Buzz], blue line [KLMuk]) and we had to make a decision which route to take without KLM providing us and infact withholding vital information.

What really has enoyed me is that BALPA (Gawick) has done bugger all to help the KLMuk/Buzz pilots. All the BALPA company council guys for the last 4 years have worked there arses off for the KLMuk workforce and have done the best they can. BUT BALPA have never given them any real support or backup whats so ever......they are so good at taking all the subs from the 350 so workforce in the union for the last four years put are not willing to put anything back. The BALPA representative has been so poor its unbelievable.

Once again though the CC guys have worked so hard its just a shame that Gatwick has not helped them more... after all they are pilots not trained negotiators. Well done the CC guys keep up the good work.

BALPA WHERE IS THERE HELP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

For your information KLMer

1. BALPA are at heathrow not Gatwick

2. The BALPA general secretary met with the KLM management yesterday and I believe progress was made. So BALPA are doing something.

3. I agree the CC have worked bloody hard!

Bluepilot, Sorry for getting the location wrong of BALPA's head office ie. Heathrow not Gatwick though i was not aware this made a difference in there performance. I am so pleased the General Sec has finally arranged a meeting its only taken 4 years.

I am pleased though that every one thinks the CC are doing a good job as it is very much a thankless task by many..

hmmmm..........:confused:
KLM'er said...
Maybe thats your personal experience, but mine is vastly different. I have had no problems whatsoever, and what type of contract I am on, is quite simply never an issue. Everybody appreciates that each persons circumstances at the time of signing the KLM contract were different, and dictated what choices we made. No doubt some people regret not taking the offer at the time, and may be slightly envious, having seen now that it was not the doom and gloom forecast by others.By and large, I have experienced no animosity. The usual crew room type banter? Yes. Animosity? No.

However, if you are the type to flaunt your own good fortune in the face of other peoples adversity, :suspect: , abuse, bullying and being obstracised are all to be expected.

NOW BACK TO THE THREAD
In my opinion, the catalyst for the current mess is that 3 or 4 years ago, KLM successfully created a blackhole called KLCuk, and used "TUPE" to lure a large number of pilots into it. By creating this smokescreen, they avoided the type of negotiations that they frequently enter into (and come out second best in) with the VNV. BALPA fell into a carefully laid trap that resulted in them percieving success in maintaining the status quo for most of the pilots, without realising that in reality, an opportunity to negotiate wholesale changes for the betterment of (and parity) the pilot workforce as a whole had been missed. It is those much needed changes that I feel are at the root of the current standoff.

Whilst it is also fashionable to make the VNV the scapegoat, lets remember that BALPA do not negotiate with the VNV. BALPA and the VNV both negotiate with KLM, and it is for KLM to mediate in and coordinate the stated objectives and demands of both unions. Neither the VNV or BALPA can be blamed for making demands that are in their members best interests, even if this is potentially to the detriment of the other union. There is no problem that can not be solved,.....it is the cost or acceptability of the solution that sometimes precludes it from being reached.

I wish BALPA all the very best in the current standoff, and in the current CC they have the right men for the task. It saddens me to see colleagues being mis-treated and discriminated against.

Muscle flexing like this by BALPA would have been much more effective 2 or 3 years ago, but better late than never. I have also heard that there are demands on both sides that are quite simply, excessive or unreasonable. I cant comment either way, but suggest that being realistic in your demands makes it easier to reach a solution....and remember, it is KLM that you have a 'beef' with, not the VNV.

As a present klcUK pilot I amm saddened to hear that KLMer is being given a hard time by his colleages. We do not have a problem with the Dutch people. Many of our Dutch colleagues are very supportive. The discrimination that we are suffering is a result of KLM management.As with many airlines KLM need to recruit pilots (more than can be suppied by there training school).Why should we be told that we are not allowed to join mainline, after all we have been flying there aircraft for 5 years. We have been the most flexable pilots in europe.We have agreed to the dutch ftl,night stopped continuously for the last 3 years,and changed to the new klm sop's. As has already been mentioned the company have lost lots of high quality pilots and will continue to do so unless the company start to act responsibly.

When the UK-guys had the choice of which contract, they choose the one that suited them most (or hurted them least), but as a relatively small group they're now totally stuck. Unhappy with the contract they choose and unable to improve it. Only way to go is the mainline contract and negotiate some additional items to enable a social family life in the UK. This is gonna cost both parties something since kostenneutraal is still a hot issue. I see many solutions, but by fighting/alienating everybody they' re only gonna end up with the legal minimum of what they' re entitled to.

Just my 2 Eurocents.

Unfortunatly LLuke this shows the mis-understanding that alot of out collegues in mainline have of our situation, we have tried for three years to talk, reason etc, and all that has happened is things have got worse, nobody want to resort to a fight or threats but we have been left with no option.

Most chose to move to BUZZ but a week after decisions had to be made KLM sold BUZZ to Ryanair, these pilots were then told tough the mainline option is now closed you must stay in KLCuk. We were mislead by the KLM board.

FACT: the VNV HAVE blocked UK management/training appointments and insisted that "mainline contract" pilots only get the jobs, FACT: the Duin & Kruidberg Agreement calls for uk jobs to reduce by a set number per year FACT: KLMuk pilots were NEVER invited to integration talks involving the Duin & Kruidberg Agreement which directly affected their futures. FACT: Duin & Kruidberg Agreement states that KLCuk can never employ another pilot in the UK. Forgive me this is pure discrimination.
I do not blame you or my collegues on mainline directly, as has been stated before most are decent people and would not wish for others to be harmed in their name, but this is exactly what is happening here.
KLCuk has reduced by 100 pilots in the past few years, these jobs have been replaced by pilots on mainline contracts, so that means there are 100 pilots on the mailine seneiority list working for KLM who have directly benefited by our loss, this is not only unfair but damn right immoral.
there are about 140ish pilots left in KLCuk all they ask for is long term security for them and their families.

I am looking forward to the day that the "merger"with Air France shows to be the "take over" that it really is and that the French unions tell the VNV where to go. :rolleyes: Agree with blue pilot that the VNV their position has been EXTREMELY immoral...

In the short term it is a petty that highly qualified Air UK jocks are more or less forced to go back to the UK while KLC has a major training problemand amazingly low reliability...

bluepilot you have hit the nail on the head - I look forward to the scrap between the Air France unions and the VNV, its about time the VNV were shown just how much clout they have not got.

We also see the President (Balpa) and the Vice President (VNV) of the ECA talking about how mergers should be done and that the minority should be protected - they cant even get it right in their own back yards.

I just hope the VNV get for their members in the Air France takeover as much as they gave to their colleagues at KLCuk.

Its total discrimination in many forms, absolutely disgusting and immoral.

Hi Bluepilot, I was just describing my 'best way out' for your current situation.
Most facts you mention are i.m.h.o. just results/consequenses of having different contracts. The Dutch union (VNV) has never before and never will, accept situations where KLM pilots were judged/reprimanded/fired by non KLM pilots. Consequence: it makes a pilot on UK contract working for KLC UK pretty useless in any KLM management position. They also make sure that only KLM pilots can fly for KLM out of AMS and that the UK contract will not be exploited for cheap labour, I am sure there are managers dreaming about f.i. KLM-India with cheap pilots flying out of AMS. The KLC UK contract was a potential leak on smuggling cheap labour into AMS. A contract on which the VNV obviously has no control. Concequence: the requirement for reducing the number of UK contracts. Pilots can and do live wherever they want all over the world, the VNV really doesn' t care but there will be only one contract out of AMS.
I am very happy that you' re negotiating via BALPA where there is a lot of expertise in making contracts. Bad contracts can be beneficial on the short term for a few, but a disaster for many on longer term. Hence the suggestion from my previous post, (re)open negotiations and join mainline contract. It would make life so much easier...

Dear Autofeather, I know you won't believe me, but the VNV is not your enemy. I am sure that KLM will try to play both unions apart. Another disadvantage of having different contracts represented by different unions.

You are right - I dont

I guess it must really hurt when the truth eventually gets out. I sincerely hope the French unions pay no notice to this thread, for the sake of the VNV. I mentioned earlier that I hoped the VNV and their members get what they deserve, that was an emotive post and one that should not have been said. I dont wish bad on anyone I just would prefer it if the VNV treated others like they would wish to be treated themselves.

Just what is it that VNV are worried about with the KLCuk pilots?

"You are right - I dont. I guess it must really hurt when the truth eventually gets out."

If this truth is in Bluepilots post in the third alinea ("Most chose to..."), I fail to see how this is related to the VNV.

"Just what is it that VNV are worried about with the KLCuk pilots?"

I'am actually a bit guessing here, but it is not about the KLCuk pilots, it is i.m.o. about the exploits their contract introduces.

I understand it is difficult for small groups to get organized, but if I was in your situation, I'd organize a meeting with the VNV. You can verify/discuss all your accusations, if they are true VNV will feel bad which should bring goodwill, if the accusations are false, it is good to know for you.

LLuke,
I have already stated in my previous post that one of our major issues is not being aloud to join mainline.
I read with interest all the views relating to the VNV,however if the KLM management were determined to give us a fair deal a solution would have been thrashed out the union.
We are in a position where by KLM need pilots (from talks with several fairly senior KLM training captains)approx 120 per year for the next 3 years. Yet the computer says NO!!!!!
Our working relationship with our Dutch colleagues is very good,we have received much support especialy from the flight crew.However the treatment are receiving from KLM management is beyond comprehension.
Lets hope common sense prevails before all ties are severed.

And I am saying it is better for you to find a [any] deal where you join mainline. Your situation is rather uncertain with little protection. If the forecasts are true, the summer will be hot enough to get people around the table :-)

The KLM pilots have a good CLA. The VNV is in no way saying no to UK pilots (they can' t since they don' t have any influence on KLM and the UK contract), but it is in no way willing to give up any rights that it holds, would require a change in our CLA and could introduce dangerous loopholes in the future.

LLuke, the BALPA CC has tried to have a constructive meeting with the VNV for several years. Each time a meeting is arranged, it is cancelled the day before with some reason or other being given. It is clear that the VNV do not wish to have talks with BALPA.

BALPA were not allowed to be included in talks with the VNV and the Air France Pilots union regarding future harmonisation of the workforce.

"BALPA were not allowed to be included in talks with the VNV and the Air France Pilots union regarding future harmonisation of the workforce."

I hate to sound ironic, but neither were the pilots of Japan Airlines. I am only guessing here, but I presume you don' t have a contract with KLM but with ??KLM-UK??. I guess the current setup is sth like KLM leasing pilots from KLM-UK. A great setup...as long as it lasts.

"LLuke, the BALPA CC has tried to have a constructive meeting with the VNV for several years. Each time a meeting is arranged, it is cancelled the day before with some reason or other being given. It is clear that the VNV do not wish to have talks with BALPA."

There are people from the union daily/weekly in the BMC, BALPA and VNV are working closely together in the ECA, presidents from BALPA and VNV are now president resp. vice-president of ECA ...
... and your BALPA representative is not able to arrange a meeting?

Before you have this 'constructive meeting' also don' t forget that you have your contract with a company, not the VNV. The VNV can only give information/advise on what to do to improve your situation.

I consider you as much a KLM pilot as I am, but your current contract is not going to do you any good.