Unfortunately it looks like the ballot papers will have to be sent out.The company are treating the UK division with total contempt. The feeling amongst the crews is that they have had enough. The are not willing to let there T&c be driven into the ground any further. Should the strike go ahead it will be with the full backing of Balpa. All other routes would of been exhausted. Considering many of the reasons for the indusrial action will the result of the VNV actions, Where will this leave the VNV. Balpa will request the support of other Unions via Ialpa,the VNV are part of this group. Unless they break ranks with the rest of the Unions they will have to support the uk guys and girls. Could be an interesting debate!!!!!!!!!!!!

The strike will be on if the company do not sort out the T&C feedback from the crews is that virtually 100pecent are willing to take industrial action.
The crews know if they loose this battle the last person may as well turn out the lights.

:D Thats a really good move, posting an internal company letter on a public forum. Some of you UK guys really make me laugh, do you ever stop complaining? You should have moved across 3 years ago like your former colleagues did, I can't believe you ever thought that a money losing expensive "Low cost" airline like Buzz would ever last and be kept running.
See you at the bottom of the list.
:ok:

KLSboy

Your post does not deserve any kind of reply apart from a request that you consider what you have written and maybe edit the content.

Lets just leave it at that shall we.

Autofeather

I could not of put it better := myself. For the general forum Kls boy is Not typical of the general Dutch pilot:ok:

I agree.

The emotive drivel posted by KLSboy is not representative of our Dutch collegues views.

kls boy, you are clearly some kind of fool. Why don't you save your efforts next time and maybe try and remove that rather large chip on your shoulder.

Hey idiot, did you already fly solo ?

idiot.

V1.(a dutch guy)

Well "KLS Boys" are coming straight in cityhopper....and onto the UK side ask your mates on the courses now.

Oh and I will be doing your training...........Have Fun:D:=

LVCHVS,

Doing my training? I don't think so, unless you are coming to MD 11 any time soon. And before you all start, I have 3 stripes on that fleet not 2.;)

I feel sorry for the guys on the md 11
ps Hope you enjoy your stripes:D

Kls Boy you are missing the point and i am not surprised it is not your fault. When you were born this situation was not in the manual. You seem proud and happy that 140 ish pilots are voting on strike action against the treatment received by the company you work for. I am amazed.

KLSboy,

This is one of the moments I am not proud to be working at KLM. I am surprised we got pilots who are such a bunch of f*ckers like you are! Most likely you are still flying as a student pilot at KLS, it's hard to believe you give yourself the name KLSboy if you're flying md11. 2 options: You are flying md11, then you are a pathetic loser, or you're still a student and you're trying to upset a lot of your (future) english collegues, pathetic loser again AND then see YOU at the BOTTOM of the list, if you make it through the selection proces, f*cker!!

Regards, 747 co-pilot.
PS, I hope we find a good solution to your problems KLCuk pilots, but please try to give the dutch some background info, because we don't know a lot about your situation, the only thing we know is what we read on this forum and no, we're not going to ask VNV because this is a problem between you and KLM and NOT the VNV! So please inform your dutch collegues!

I'd like to know as well. I've spoken to several UK collegues in the BMC, and what struck me is that the most heard argument is 'we are discriminated against'. Well that goes for us too: you earn in pounds what we do in euro's, you have a pension based on your last earned salary, where ours is based on average, you have less early shifts than we do.

So I cannot imagine Balpa is supporting the discrimination claim. Please let us know what you are preparing to strike for. Support from our side may be larger than you think!

Thanks for your support guys re Kls

In the next few days there will be a infomation sheetdetailing the problems we are having with the company. These will be available in the crew center.
Should tou have any questions once you have read the sheet,I will be please to answere any questions you may have. The bottom line is that we do not want to take any sort of industrial action,However as the company are slowly making more amd more difficult to work for them we have no choice. The general view is if we do not make a stand nowthe UK division will probably be gone within the next couple of years,pilots as well. We are hoping to get as much support from our colleagues so we can put pressure on the company to provide a future for us all.

Thanks again for your interest and hopefully your support when you know the facts..

Safeflying my friends.

Well that's as maybe, but have you considered whether this is better or worse than the pension that KLM employees currently enjoy?

The highest earning KLC uk Captain is earning c. £75,000. They can go no higher- that is the top incremental pay scale. Assuming that pilot has been in the pension scheme for about 30 years upon retirement then he could potentially get £50,000 pa (€67,500) from his pension.

The KLM scheme is different and although I don't know the details of the benefits, it assumes a career-wide average. When you consider that the average KLM starter is only in his or her early twenties and then they can enjoy approximately 35 years of KLM employement earning what is arguably a "generous" salary- certainly it is much better than many other airlines, and will end their career as a Jumbo Captain earning (so I understand, but I am prepared to be corrected) close to €250,000 pa. Add in the fact that I fly with KLM first officers who earn more than I do as a KLC Uk Captain and they are still in their twenties, you can see that over a career, the average KLM employee will have a significantly higher AVERAGE salary than we have as a FINAL salary.

Also bear in mind that the company want to remove many of the benefits that we currently enjoy by freezing our pension at the level it is this year and all future payrises and increments are to be added into a money purchase pension scheme, with all the risks associated with this. For my own situation, I have calculated that I will be £7,000 pa WORSE OFF in retirement assuming that the investment rates are fairly average. In a poor market, this could be much worse. Some colleagues have calculated that this could be as much as £15,000 per annum for their own circumstances. Assuming that pilot lives until he is 90 (unlikely I know) Ms van Galen's costcutting exercise would have cost that pilot PERSONALLY £450,000 in lost benefits! Is THIS fair?

So you can see that our remuneration is vastly inferior to our KLM colleagues. Not only do we earn significantly less (whilst doing the same job) we will be much poorer in retirement as well.

This grievance goes far deeper than just a mainline entry. Yes, we were given the right to join three years ago but the terms and conditions then were totally unacceptable if you were older than about 30 and married, or had any seniority in KLM uk. As a senior F/O at the time, it would have been untenable to accept the deal. Many of our colleagues don't want to join mainline and will never do so. Many can't for many reasons. Most want some sort of security and an end to the constant apartheid (a Dutch word note) that we experience on a day to day basis. I can't even change my BST password into something more memorable because I have no access to myklm.org- even though I fly a KLM aircraft with KLM passengers, flying with KLM employees I am not worthy of access to this website. My ID pass has KLM Cityhopper UK written in the smallest possible font so everyone can spot us a mile off (assuming they have good eyesight). I don't get given a pack of business cards as my fellow KLC NL colleagues do.

The list is endless and THIS is why we want an end to the inequality and discrimination. We just want the RIGHT to join KLM and not on some silly terms and conditions that they know NO-ONE will accept. We want to be able to be part of the family and there is no reason why we shouldn't be!
To all my Dutch colleagues who are supporting our stand here, I thank you and appreciate your words of support. I am sorry that you haven't been given much information about this rather complex issue but I am assured that there will shortly be something available to you which hopefully may explain our situation. Your continued support is most gratifying.

Nice one, stop!
 

Stop, stop, stop,........:D

Nice post. :ok:

Exactly the kind of factual info that is required.

KLSboy writesThe single strongest bond that aircrew the world over share is that we never stop complaining so that little bit is an irrelevance. With regard moving over three years ago then for some in hindsight this would have been a sensible solution but you can only act on the information you have at the time plus a little bit of crystal ball gazing. The pilots were informed by the KLM appointee head of Buzz that plans were in hand for expansion and the losses at the start were inevitable as would changes in the way it operated. The possibility of transfer to Buzz at an agreed rate was the corerstone for most people not joining mainline, of course we did not know straight away about the agreement between KLM and the VNV to get rid of pilots to buzz at an agreed rate. You are in a fortunate position working for a good company and with a secure future no doubt brought about by much hard work and cost. The UK pilots don't want anything to change for you, they are not a threat to you or anyone for that matter. We would like fair treatment and the chance to share in the sucess of the airline. At the moment we feel like contract extras just making up the numbers.

Again assumptions that are untrue. Average age joining currently more late twenties. Changes of reaching Jumbo captain are remote. Too many collegues same age did start in their early twenties... Also a KLM F/O in his twenties that makes more than a UK captain is very unlikely. If he joines at 20 and is 29 he makes 65000 pounds. That may be more than you do. But how many KLM pilots started at 20 and are F/O F70 now at 29? 1?

I can understand that you're building your case by exaggerating, but that's not going to get you my sympathy. Apparently you don't know the facts about our contract, as I don't know them about yours. But let me tell you this: the grass on this side may not be much greener than it is on yours. Just different type of grass, probably.

So please stick with the real facts. What is it that you had, that they want to take away from you? If you're fighting to maintain what you have, I'm sure most KLM pilots will support you (the pension story for example). If you want to join KLM (let's not discuss the position on the list for now, that's more difficult), most KLM pilots will support you, as long as you guys accept the standards that come with it, like being based in AMS.

Point of the story: if you guys want to get a real result in the ongoing negotiations, you're going to need the support of your KLM collegues. Maybe you can put a little more effort in getting that.

Looking forward to the factsheet in the BMC.

Gonna, Staying with facts is crucial to this debate. In the very near future there will a fact sheet stating the problems we have with the company. I have no paper evidence ,however speaking to one of our former uk colleages,who has moved on to the 737,his pay is very similar to that of a UK jet Captain,remember some of these guys are on a different tax coding.

The bottom line is that we are fighting to save our jobs ,our future. This is simply a matter of survival. We have already lost over 90 UK pilots. Originaly the company had an agreement to lose a given number of UK pilots over a number of years. We have recently learnt that there has been another agreement for this to stop. The point i am making is that we have never been consulted over our future,it has been decided between the company and the VNV. UP til a few weeks ago we were told that we would not be allowed to join mainline. They have now changed that. I will give an example how. Captain TRE, has trained quite a few captains on the F50,if he would like to join Mainline Has to submit an application form ,go for interview, simulator assesment,pyscometric test,should he pass all that,will be offered a position of F/o F50 Pay and pension in accordancewith his position.
Captain TRE F100, At present in charge of training same as above.
The problem we face with the company is that they continue to change the goal post. They closed most of the UK bases for what???
They tried to change our final salary scheme as they said they could not afford it. We have not had a pay rise for the last three years,there are no new recruits on to the UK division. The list goes on and on. The company agree to an issue one day then change there mind the next etc etc etc.
If i were to list ALL the greviances this would continue for pages.
The bottom line is if we lose this argument with the company there will be no UK pilots left within two years.
This has become a quite complex in depth problem.Should you have any specific questions i will answere them as best i can.

Safe flying

Gonna, the fact is I fly with guys who are in their early twenties. Fact. I find it hard to believe that in a career of 30 years they will not make a Jumbo Command. There certainly are some young-ish looking 744 Captains in the BMC! If you can't achieve a widebody command after 30 years then really you should be looking to join Virgin or somewhere instead of wasting your time with this outfit. You might get a command in ten! And £65000, yes that IS more than I earn! Some of my colleagues who transfered to mainline are taking home as much as me each month and they have only been in KLM 3years. Is YOUR salary capped? No.

I am not exaggerating anything and I find this hurtful. I already have friends in KLM so I probably know a little more of YOUR terms and conditions than YOU have clearly bothered to learn of mine. It is clear that your arrogance is just going to shine through and whatever is said, we will never get YOUR sympathy so it is pointless wasting our breath trying to convince you otherwise.

If we join the KLM list, it will not affect you. You will move up the list 140 places and get a payrise, so why are you bothered about whether we are AMS based or not? Have you been forcebly relocated from one part of Holland to the other by your employer? I have- from the East of the UK to the West. The vast majority of us just want to be on the list and build seniority whilst quietly getting on with our lives doing the jobs that we currently do, getting paid what we do and so on. After a number of years, we will have achieved a certain seniority and IF that allows us to bid further onto a mainline contract then at that point, then we effectively resign from KLC uk and yes we would have to accept an AMS base and to be able to speak the Dutch language to a conversational level. That will be the choice. Many of course will never want to go to mainline for many reasons, most of all the AMS base (commuting might be OK if you are ICA but practically impossible if you are on shorthaul).

I do hope that you and your colleagues don't face the same hassle when you are being relocated to Paris in 2008 or when the French ALPA have made an agreement with Air France to get rid of Dutch jobs just as the VNV did with OUR jobs (Duin en Kruisberg agreement)!

If you don't want to give YOUR support, then don't give it. We won't lose any sleep over it. However, we DO have a lot of support from many of your colleagues and THAT is appreciated.
:ugh:

The fact sheet has been published this morning.
It can also be downloaded http://www.klmukpilot.co.uk/files/why_are_klc_pilots_balloting_070606.pdf

Now that is hurtful. I'm trying to get a clear view of what is going on here, trying to find out what the problem is with your terms and conditions. Blaming me for not knowing is very unfair. I've tried getting that info from a lot of your collegues, but get no real answers. Can I help that?

The factsheet is the first communication from you guys towards us about your problems. It helps clear up the fact that your terms and conditions are worsening. Also I agree, as most of my KLM collegues do, that you should all be able to work on the same contract as we do, without any selections as are proposed now.

So the way things look now, you have my support. Appreciated or not.

Well Gonna, if the newly posted letter from BALPA has helped with any misunderstanding of why we are ballotting for this industrial action, then it has been a worthwhile exercise.

As we now have your support it IS, of course, very much appreciated and I hope that if you took any offence from my previous post that you will accept my apology. Hopefully, this letter (which I trust will be distributed in the BMC) will help explain to your colleagues that we have been dealt a pretty poor hand from the KLC management and suffer significant penalties in our terms and conditions- something we feel is only fair if this is addressed. The KLM and KLC management have not come to the table with any improved offer since the last meetings and clearly now, our hand is forced that we go through the route of industrial action. Nobody in KLC uk relishes going this route, but we WILL stand together and if no movement is made by the company, we will strike, rest assured!

This is the only route open to us, if normal negotiations with the company have ground to a halt. It is interesting to note that the VNV are supporting our action. Maybe the only way to force the issue and to get the two parties around the table is to hurt the parent company (Air France-KLM) financially.

All we want is for equality, if not in all areas, but most (everything is negotiable) and to be able to work together with our Dutch colleagues, knowing that at least we are considered equals!

from BALPA :-)

Dear Collegues,

BALPA has produced a document to inform you of why your KLCuk collegues are balloting for industrial action against discrimination, we have now had this document translated into Dutch for your convenience in the hope that it will give you an better understanding of our concerns.

On behalf of your KLCuk collegues i thank you in advance for your support, please do talk to any of your KLCuk collegues in the crew centre who will be happy to answer any questions you may have.

Together we can make a secure future for all.

Geachte Collega’s

Het huidige KLCuk is ontstaan uit het voormalige AIRuk; deze maatschappij is op haar beurt weer ontstaan door een fusie van verschillende kleine luchtvaartmaatschappijen. Op het hoogtepunt van haar bestaan was AIRuk een zeer winstgevende luchtvaartmaatschappij, die werk bood aan bijna 500 vliegers, die vlogen 49 vliegtuigen, langs een zeer uitgebreid europees, nationaal, feeder en charter netwerk. Het was de op drie na grootste maatschappij in de UK, en vanuit het standpunt van de vlieger gezien een zeer prestigieuze maatschappij om voor te werken.

Toen de KLM in 1987 de winstgevendheid en de vooruitzichten inzag van een feeder luchtvaartmaatschappij vanuit de UK naar Amsterdam, kocht zij 14% van de aandelen van AIRuk. Geleidelijk werd het belang in AIRuk uitgebreid totdat in 1996 KLM volledig eigenaar was. Tijdens deze periode ontmantelde de KLM, nu met mensen in de directie van AIRuk, de maatschappij langzaam van haar bezittingen zoals het verkopen van waardevolle routes en slots binnen de UK.

Tijdens deze periode had een AIRuk vlieger de keuze om 4 verschillende turboprop vliegtuigen en 4 verschillende jets te vliegen, gecombineerd met een variatie van verschillende levensstijlen.

Vanaf Maart 1998 opereerde AIRuk onder de merknaam KLMuk en in 1999 werd de naam veranderd in KLMuk, kort waarna, tijdens een zeer korte periode, de gehele nadruk kwam te liggen op het voeden van het KLM netwerk in Amsterdam. Tegelijkertijd werd er een nieuwe luchtvaartmaatschappij opgericht onder de naam Buzz, om te kunnen voorzien in de toen aanwezige point to point routes, om te kunnen profiteren van de zich nog steeds uitbreidende low cost sector, en om de overgebleven vliegers en vliegtuigen die niet langer nodig waren in het feeder netwerk te benutten.

In November 2002 werd het bedrijf verder ontmanteld, door het te splitsen in twee maatschappijen. KLCuk en Buzz. KLCuk werd geïntegreerd in de KLM organisatie; de overgebleven bezittingen ( vliegtuig lease contracten en feeder routes naar Amsterdam) werden overgebracht naar de KLM organisatie, terwijl de vliegers in dienst bleven van KLCuk. Gezien de verwachte snelle groei van Buzz lag het in de planning van bedrijf om steeds meer vliegers over te plaatsen naar deze operatie. Gedurende deze periode was er voor de KLCuk vliegers een mogelijkheid om in dienst te treden bij de KLM( na een file check en met een restrictie op leeftijd). Door de voorwaarden van dit aanbod was de overgang eigenlijk alleen geschikt voor die vliegers die nog niet al te lang in dienst waren van de maatschappij; het aanbod hield in ontslag nemen bij KLCuk en opnieuw starten als een nieuwe werknemer bij de KLM. In overweging nemend de mogelijkheid om naar Buzz over te stappen naar een standplaats in de UK, was voor de meerderheid het aanbod geen aanvaardbare optie.

Nadat het termijn van de “eenmalige aanbieding” om over te stappen naar de KLM was verstreken, behielden de KLCuk vliegers de mogelijkheid om te gaan vliegen voor Buzz, met een gecontroleerde uitstroom van vliegers vanuit KLCuk tijdens de volgende vijf jaar. Gebaseerd op levensstijl, was dit de manier waarop de meerderheid van de KLCuk vliegers hun toekomstige carrière hadden gepland, en tevens de manier om de reductie van KLCuk vliegers te bewerkstelligen in de komende jaren zoals de KLM dat met het VNV was overeengekomen.

Uiteindelijk komt dan de ultieme ontmanteling van het laatste bezit; de uitverkoop van Buzz, de KLM, ondanks alle beloftes aan de UK vliegers, besloot om dit bezit zo snel mogelijk van de hand te doen. Vervolgens werd de maatschappij tegen een dump prijs verkocht aan Ryanair. Derhalve zagen de KLCuk vliegers hun carrière mogelijkheden en aspiraties verdwijnen als sneeuw voor de zon, garanties voor de toekomst waren weg, en de deur naar de KLM zat stevig dicht.

Wij komen nu bij een wat recentere geschiedenis van KLCuk Ltd. De overgebleven vliegers binnen deze groep hebben zeer hard gewerkt om zich aan te passen aan een met ongekende snelheid (zelfs voor luchtvaartbegrippen) veranderende werkomgeving. Wij hebben ons een totaal andere werk en rusttijden regeling, nieuwe AOM’s , nieuwe SOP’s , een nieuwe stijl van management, en een totaal andere cockpit filosofie eigen gemaakt.

Recentelijk zijn wij geconfronteerd met een “rebasing” waarbij vliegers en hun familie gedwongen werden te verhuizen, een slecht voorstel om onze pensioen voorziening te veranderen, een aanname stop voor vliegers uit de UK, de weigering om een geschikte kandidaat aan te stellen in een management functie, een continue en routinematige schending van onze arbeidsovereenkomst, en een dreiging om onze vliegers te ontslaan naar aanleiding harmonisatie kwesties. Nu heeft u een klein beetje inzicht in hoe uw collega’s zijn behandeld in de laatste 3 en een half jaar.

Kortom wij voelen ons gediscrimineerd

In november 2002, toen KLMuk vliegers KLCuk vliegers werden waren er 249 vliegers in dienst. Vanaf Maart 2006 zijn daarvan nog 143 overgebleven. In de afgelopen 3 en een half jaar hebben 106 vliegers KLCuk verlaten, en zijn er dus 106 nieuwe plaatsen gecreëerd voor KLM, geplaatst op de KLM senioriteitlijst. Er kan slechts maar een achterliggende gedachte zijn waarom 42,5 % van het vliegerscorps het bedrijf heeft verlaten in zo’n korte tijd.

Dit alles ondanks het feit dat wij als groep KLCuk vliegers 1700 dienstjaren hebben binnen de KLM groep. Er zijn bij ons gezagvoerders in dienst met meer dan 20 dienstjaren, en met meer dan 10.000 vlieguren.

Dit moet u toch allemaal vreemd in de oren klinken gezien uw eigen ervaringen. Wij vliegen dezelfde vliegtuigen, en werken volgens dezelfde KLM SOP’s, met collega’s die anders worden betaald, het voordeel hebben van andere salaris structuren, pensioenen werkgelegenheidsbescherming, werknemersrechten dan het UK vliegerscorps.

De actie van Balpa is bedoeld om een einde te maken aan deze discriminatie. Er zijn een aantal mogelijke oplossingen die de KLM zou kunnen aandragen om de situatie op te lossen. Een onderdeel van het voorstel van Balpa is om haar leden nogmaals een mogelijkheid te geven in dienst te treden bij de KLM, maar wel onder eerlijke en redelijke voorwaarden.

Balpa geeft de voorkeur aan een oplossing die aanvaardbaar is voor alle UK vliegers. Dit is een enorme opgave, maar de fundering hiervoor dient nu gelegd te worden. De KLM is altijd bij haar eerste aanbod gebleven, door Balpa en haar leden aangemerkt als belachelijk.




Wij hopen dat u nu een inzicht heeft gekregen in de situatie waarin de KLCuk collega’s zich bevinden. Volledig in het nauw, en met ontoereikende voorstellen geconfronteerd, hebben de KLCuk vliegers besloten om voor zichzelf op te komen.Hiermee hopen Balpa en haar leden voor eens en voor altijd een toekomst veilig te stellen, bestaande uit gelijkheid, wederzijds respect en een volwaardige plaats in de dynamische en groeiende KLM-Airfrance groep.

Wij willen er met nadruk op wijzen dat de voorstellen van Balpa geen directe invloed hebben op uw carrière. De KLCuk vliegers hebben geïnvesteerd in het verleden en verdienen een belang in de toekomst!

Wij vragen uw steun in deze moeilijke tijd.












.

Heard today. 132 ballot papers sent out. 128 returned with 100% (yes 100%) in favour of strike action.

Maybe now KLM will wake up and look at our grievance seriously or they can prepare for a summer of disruption. I am sure that the customers will look forward to that!

here is the first from the press
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/fn/3985197.html