GB Pay Negotiations
 

Greetings campers,

Heard 3rd hand (so dont shoot me down in flames), that the GB balpa reps walked out of this years pay discussions. I heard the company not gonna pay the tracker agreement!!

Is a strike imminent?!?

Anybody heard anythink?!?

:}

I don't know about a walk out, but most pilots are talking about an offer from the company where tracker will be paid in exchange for 900 hours......very subtle.

GB Airways have been able to attract and most importantly retain pilots because of lifestyle. Over the last few years many of these lifestyle issues have been eroded or withdrawn. We have a new management team, with it a new culture and no doubt they see this as their moment to shine. I am sure the board of directors have been briefed to the possible problems and have a contingency plan for the summer.

LAST ONE OUT TURN OFF THE LIGHTS.........

The usual shortsighted airline management...
 

They obviously haven't woken up to the fact that there is a pilot shortage looming. Now is the time to be offering a package that will retain pilots, not force them to look carefully at the Emirates advert in Flight for B777 DECs requiring only Boeing EFIS command experience.
When the shortage bites, it will go manic very quickly. I can't wait!

Not just Emirates: also check out Etihad in the Middle East, India & China in general, as well as the general expansion in the UK.
Jobs for the new guys, opportunities for FOs to fast track & DECs for suitable FOs & captains, not to mention the training opportunities!
However, GBs management have never been the type to pre-empt a situation, preferring to wait until half the work force have resigned before they do anything about it.
Apparently GB have had some 10 resignations in the past couple of weeks, amounting to some 5% of the pilot workforce, with more in the pipeline.
Wake up!

GB have also had a large turn over in DFO's.
Might be that the present one will hold the post for the shortest period ever...............:E

Let's hope so - apparently he has fallen out with several of his trainers & line pilots & has even apparently reprimanded those that have resigned!
Goodwill between pilots & company = 0
What was that about CRM & leadership?

GB pilots currently fly 80 hours more per year than the 6 airlines that are tracked by the pay tracker agreement. The company already gets above average value for the average salary that they pay. It's just a case of whether they are prepared to honour the deal signed a few years ago. It appears that the new ops director doesn't come from the same school (school of fair play/fair deals/keep your word/honour existing agreements) as the pilots that fly for the airline.
A strike is not imminent.
The ops director's demise might well be.

Don't count on it.The GB board of directors has a long history of supporting incompetence in its senior managers. It is common knowledge that a certain individual who was a below average line pilot not suitable for training saw his future in managment 'cos it certainly wasn't in line operations or training.
Good managers would not want to work at this level of less than
mediocrity.
He is operating at least two levels above that of his competence therefore I would say his future amongst his peer group on the board is assured. (Look at the last buffoon who held on for so long).
You can also guarantee the more conflict he creates with the pilots the greater his cache with the board. He WILL receive their full support he is after all acting for the shareholders. Sadly the only 'stakeholders' who count are the shareholders. We are merely the hired help.

GB cannot afford to lose pilots. The summer programme is expected to be the busiest yet and the troops are already knackered! Fatigue is going to be a BIG issue in the coming months; it's not just the total flying hours but how they are rostered that's responsible. Until this is resolved then any talk of "increased productivity" is farcical.

You're right - they can't afford to lose pilots or cabin crew, but I predict that they will lose both, in droves. The ten pilots & the number of cabin crew who have already resigned is just the beginning of a mass exodus of those who have just had enough & who can see that the writing is on the wall.
The company is going to get slaughtered financially & the crews are going to get slaughtered by the scheduling & rostering departments, who will attempt to extract any drops of blood remaining from last years shambles.
As usual, the management will attempt to "tough it out," & even the company owner/chairman has apparently stated that" if that's the way it is going to be, then that is the way it is going to be," so don't hold your breath for any improvements in the short term.
In any case, the pilots are too weak/divided to stand up for themselves & achieve any improvements from the inside.
Only when the aircraft are grounded due to lack of crews & it is costing them money will anything change.

Hard to see a future for the company with a management attitude like that.

If the Chairman has given up I would suggest it is time to dust off the CVs.

If the shareholders don't care, BA don't care and all the ex-BA managers don't care because they have their BA pensions to fall back on why should the crews be expected to prop it all up with longer hours / lower pay?

This is British management at its worst.

Can anybody see a route to survival for GB?

not many options from what i can see.....

how do operators survive in this increasingly cut throat industry?

Expanding is one way, merging another. Selling up? Probably not.

Expansion has been discussed way too many times here before, (A330 etc) and people with bundles more knowledge than me say it'll NEVER happen, so i'll take that as read.

Merger? hard to see where. Not sure who owns GB's a/c, slots, route licences etc.... and from comments on here i'm not sure anyone else does either. Bmed maybe? BA....? If this airline is on the verge of destruction that i'm lead to believe then who'll take it on if it doesn't have assets like a/c, routes?

LoCo's are slowly pushing further out of europe but i don't think the longer sectors fit the business model do they?

And maybe younger, brighter managers with an exciting and fresh approach to the airline might be good. Of late it seems like a bit of a retirement ground for near sell by date ex-BA managers....

I shall watch with interest (massive interest actually, as i've just joined) to see what happens. In the meantime shall i not file away my CV just in case?

the BPM

As one of those who have recently resigned, I'd just like to set the record straight on Miss Inform's quote. Whilst some of it may be true, I certainly wasn't reprimanded by the DFO for resigning, in fact he barely said a word to me about it (nice to feel valued - NOT !!!). Still, the Flight Ops Manager (DFO's No.2) was quite magnanamous about it.
Great shame to see the Co. going the way it is - low morale among pilots and cabin crew. lots of moaning etc. I thought at one time I'd be there 'til retirement. :sad:

For those who are leaving, where are they landing? Presumably they are using their Airbus ratings or experience to get to Easy, BA, Virgin, FC, etc. Would a move to Easy be considered a good move with all of its own work/pay issues?

Regarding Greenfinch's post: well, maybe he just wasn't aware of your existence! I have certainly heard directly from several of those that have resigned that they have been reprimanded for resigning, that the company were relying on their presence for the success of the summer program, etc!
Low morale? Well, the management are certainly doing their bit to foster doom & gloom with their constant forecast of financial loss due to competition from the locos, fuel costs, poor punctuality record, etc.
The increasingly anti-social schedules combined with an unbelievably unsympathetic rostering system have combined to cause many to question the point of it all. If you think that the lifestyle/fatigue issues raised in that Ryanair program were appalling, I can tell you that it is worse in GB: we have pilots who have joined from Ryanair & believe it or not, we have pilots who have left us to join Ryanair. In every case, they have reported that lifestyle/fatigue issues are far worse in GB, despite the lower number of daily sectors & annual flying hours - "A real step backwards!" As for cabin crew, they are regularly exceeding 900 hours/year, despite a clause in their SLD limiting it to 900 hours.
It's time the truth is known - GB is not the holiday camp that most outsiders seem to think that it is & you should think very carefully before applying to join!
GB have got away with it to date for all the usual reasons, such as crews not knowing the SLD/FTLs, not wanting to kick up a fuss, etc. but that is all changing as crews become more "politically aware"...

Miss Inform -- Typical member of the GB Moaning Group -- All wingeing but won't leave -- I really do hope you find the perfect job and find that lush green grass -- I do however fear you are deluded with regard to the conditions facing pilots within the UK industry....As for Ryanair being worse than GB -- why not go there and let us know what you think ----Can't wait to hear what you think about there !

BTW I am not the management in disguise but agree that the good old days of 3 day trips - 1 sector days etc etc are well gone as have such trips and perks in most other airlines too......

Life is cr@p everywhere, so that's alright then. The 'good old days have gone' : not for management they haven't, have you noticed a deterioration in their tems and conditions? Is their lifestyle significantly different to the one they signed up to? They are quite happy to accept the rewards when times are good but do they share the pain when times are bad? Think how much money the company would save if office staff were productive for 55 hours a week.
JET A1 I don't know how long you have been in GB, but at one point we all took a 10% pay cut and some a 50% paycut to help out and hang on to our jobs. The only group in the airline to do so. Are these the 'good old days' you are refering to? If so a return is easy to arrange and as you are not a whinger why not volunteer for a 50% pay cut and 900 hours to help out? The deterioration in your lifestyle and the effect on your familly is clearly acceptable to you, isn't it.

Hear! Hear!

Very well said Major.

beaver eager: thanks for your support for the Major.
Regrettably, the comments about life being cr@p everywhere would seem to be true, given the variety of issues publicised with regard to a variety of airlines in these forums.
Many of us are awaiting the outcome of the easyJet dispute with interest, for example, not to mention the pensions debacle at BA...
However, I do not believe that we should just sit back & accept that this state of affairs is the accepted standard for the industry or accept a further decline in standards. To quote from an article in the current edition of "The Log," "Next they'll be wanting quality of life!"
We are now, I believe, officially "in dispute" with the company following the recent breakdown of the pay talks with our CC. I say "believe," because they (the CC) never seem to actually tell us anything!

Hey Miss Inform, I hope that's true 'cos I guess it means I haven't screwed up too much. :ok:

[QUOTE=Major Cleve Saville] Think how much money the company would save if office staff were productive for 55 hours a week.

Same old dialogue, you forget the 190 hours in 4 weeks, standbys at home, contactables etc etc.
And Miss inform - you presumably read all the posts about Pilots jumping out of Emirates / they only just got their Feb rosters etc. I suspect that quiet a few would trade positions and join GB given the choice.
No win

[QUOTE=Mr Angry from Purley]O.K think how much money the company would save if all the office staff did 47 1/2 hours a week (no coffee or lunch breaks): happy now? Never let it be said I lack balance.

If you are management can we all take it standbys are time off then? Because I believe that is what you are saying.
No allowance made for the long days or constantly disrupted shift patterns either. I suggest we all agree to work office hours 9-5, every weekend off; More than happy to! Or the typical 3 on 3 off shift pattern the other shift workers get. I am up for that as well!!

Same old dialogue: Life is unbearable here but count yourself lucky life is more unbearable in Emirates, Ryanair, Easyjet blah blah (not just for the quiet few!) etc etc.

Yes life is worse elsewhere, pilots are leaving other airlines and other airlines have aircraft on the ground as a result: Is this your plan too? Is this the model you aspire too?

Mr Angry you must be management because you have difficulty seeing that if pilots are unhappy, perceive the grass is greener elsewhere (even if it is not), and leave, and as a consequence you cannot run your business it is a slight difficulty re: the plan (assuming you had one).

Emirates pilots are more than welcome to apply. How many pilots have joined from Emirates mmmm, let me see, would that be zero?
How many have left for Emirates? At least 3 in the last two years. I make that 3-0 to Emirates. Just what is your point? Emirates pilots would love to join GB 'given the choice' but don't due to an invisible force that prevents them? Maybe they have just not been won over by the quiet Irish charm of the Ops. Director.

My view
 

I’m normally a reader, rather than a write on PPRUNE. However, I thought I’d just say a couple of things. I worked for FLYBE before coming to GB and I do appreciate that things have changed even in my short time with the company, but compared to FLYBE this place is fantastic. I never had roster stability and got called off all my stand-by’s and these could be for ANY base on the network. I’ve spent many a night in Northern Island Billy no mates wondering if this was what I signed up for at flight school. But I kept remaindering myself they gave me my break, so it was not all bad.

Also the people are 99.99% very approachable at GB and that goes for everyone. I do not like these early starts and late finishes more than you, but I also do not think the grass is that much greener next door. With these changing conditions comes choice, but I still would be careful before I jumped!

Good luck to you all – let hope our Balpa CC starts communicating better, since everything is rumour at GB and this is not an ideal way of communication.

:)

So it's even worse at FLYBE? Well, that makes everything at GB just fine & dandy!
By sheer coincidence, no-one has ever left GB for FLYBE & I doubt that there have been any such movers from any of the tracked airlines. Or Emirates.
Who's the other 0.01%? The FOD?
You are merely confirming what we already know, that the grass is fairly equally brown on all sides of the fence & it currently boils down to which is the least cr@p job you can get! You currently consider that GB is less cr@p than FLYBE. Are you willing to allow GB to become equally cr@p then? At what stage will you say "Enough is enough?"

Far enough. I was not suggesting anyone would move from GB to FLYBE, but you would be surprised. Say you want to live in the West Country; FLYBE is one of a few options. It's all about choice and being negative only generates negativity. Life is not all about work and I will not be replying again, since I'm not interesting in picking wholes in this that and the other.

Lets not forget regardless what you think of management they are only doing their respective jobs, i.e. it get as much out of the work force for as little monies spent by the airline. Okay I agree the methods may not be agreeable to all, but don't lose sight of the fact that many senior pilots in GB have at one point lost their jobs with other airlines and with mortgages etc its not funny. We should just not lose out on the fact it could be worse.

Had a beer with a GB mate last night and he mentioned this thread so thought i would have a look as several of GB's men (and women) are coming to join us. Lots of valid stuff but also lots of usual Ppruners naive twaddle!! A few years ago GB was the place to be in the short haul business but the new team seem hell bent on eroding any kind of trust and confidence that has been established. There have been many new joiners who are of the opinion that because it's a better place than their last outfit why worry about the possible changes!
Well at the moment the bottom line is that the pilots almost took industrial action a few years ago and tracker was introduced to avoid lengthy discussions and avoid disputes. If tracker says zero you get zero and if it says 5% you are supposed to get 5%, we are all aware of the difficult trading conditions out there and i would suggest that all pilots are behind saving costs and improving efficiencies but the DFO's intransigent attitude is not helping matters. You don't get nothing for nothing, if tracker was agreed tomorrow the union would have no problem discussing other issues.
As my mate sees it this is the DFO trying to show some muscle and if you guys don't stand firm then you will be hammered on every issue in the future, you also need to show the incoming MD that you are a fair and moderate bunch and if that he plays ball with you then you will play ball with him.
The market for Airbus rated guys - especially captains is excellent and from what i am told GB, having recruited so many cadets (who are all good guys), has a real issue with finding F/O's with enough hours to promote. If any more captains resign it will dent the budget a bit to run courses - and this is where companys really lose out, F/O's come and go in search of a better deal but when a guy has a command in a company like GB and starts looking elsewhere, particularly back in the RHS, it must set off alarm bells in the managers office - musn't it??
Anyway there we go the result of a few beers!! :hmm:

Hey R3Hard, You mention:
Would that be Sir Dickie's flying club ? If so, see ya there soon :ok:

Just 3 cadets since December 2004? That's not many R3Hard. Please correct if I'm wrong.

Major

SORRY MAJOR.. I just get narked when you blame all your woes on Rostering + Crewing (or Missinfo did anyway).
At the end of the day its the CAA that set the rules and whilst we all probably agree we need 55 hrs in a week to survive, if the 4 weekly total was less than 190 (say 160) then this would solve most of your gripes in one foul swoop. Unfortunately with EU Sub Part Q (EU FTL) nearly upon us, its likely its only gonna get worse. :\

Here we go again - "It's legal!"
(So it must be okay.)
You seem to forget that the limits laid down are absolute limits, for very occasional use only & are not hourly/daily/weekly/monthly/annual targets, although this is how they are now treated by the company & administered by the rostering + crewing departments...

STOP THE PRESS............
 

In the latest twist, a memo released today by DFO reads "please rest assured that the tracker salary increase will be implemented wef 1st April 2006" :)

However, the same paragraph also states "we most certainly dont expect something for nothing" :{

Is it a case of giving with one hand, only to take it away with the other?!?!
:mad: :mad: :mad:

That doesnt suprise me one bit!!!

:ugh:

When is a pay rise not a pay rise?
 

Sound like my pay rise a couple of years ago under the mainline pay restructuring. A 10% pay rise coupled with an increase in hours from 700 to 770 per year.

Once your work/life balance is eroded it seem as if no-one is interested in clawing it back again.

I wish you all the best.

As one very well-disposed towards GB, I have followed this thread with great interest. I am aware of the current concern in the camp regarding pay and conditions, but many of its pilots (certainly those writing here!) seem to have an unrealistic grasp of the situation that GB finds itself in. The truth is this has been an extremely difficult year for the company - and it is not likely to get any easier in the foreseeable future. GB is having to fight the juggernauts of both easyJet and Ryanair head-on, while at the same time trying to appeal to loyal BA customers. Nearly every route GB operates is under attack - only today easyJet announced direct flights to Marrakech from Gatwick starting in July for example. That will inevitably affect its LHR-RAK service which has always been one of the 'star turns'.

It is very easy to criticise your management but they have to balance the books. As far as I know there was never any suggestion that the tracker would disappear - except by rumour control rather than known facts. What this is really about is the fight to get 900 hours per year from each pilot - the sooner everyone at GB recognises both the inevitability and necessity of such a move the better it will be. Your competition is working significantly harder than you at the moment and that is simply not supportable in the long term. As one who now flies 900 hours, all I can say is that once you have arrived it is not too bad - the hard bit is getting there!

To all the doom-mongers - GB is not dead and buried but it will need to change. They are a great airline with great people but they are fighting against huge odds. The GB 'product' is superb and is totally different to the one that Ryanair or easyJet offers - there will therefore always be a market for what they are offering. The secret is ensuring that in handling the inevitable changes and concessions required from both sides, the BALPA CC obtain the very best deal possible for the pilots. No one should forget that although the 900 hours simply have to come, they are the 'jewel in the crown' of the pilot contract. If your managers' eyes don't water when you tell them what you want for them then you probably asked too little! Best of luck to one and all.

No, no, no, no NSF :ugh: :ugh: :ugh: , that's completely the wrong thing to be saying !!! You must be a manager's dream.

Don't forget, 900 hours is an ABSOLUTE LEGAL LIMIT not a rostering target. It is not just an arbritary figure plucked out of the air by someone at the Belgrano, but a figure arrived at after much scientific research.

From the foreword of CAP371.....
We are in an industry that has seen a steady erosion of our terms and conditions in recent years and all the time we pilots lie down and put up no resistance, the erosion will continue.

I am about to leave GB for a Co. that has a 750 hour agreement. From recent conversations I've had with colleagues on the line, if 900 hours is introduced at GB many more will be following me.

Greenfinch: Well said! I think I know who you are & where you are going - good luck mate, I'm sure you've made a good decision! Notwithstanding today's communique from Party Political HQ, (Still nothing from the CC: do they actually exist?) I'm sure you are correct about others following...

NSF must be going down really well at easyJet, they are truly lucky to have him...

Yes the CC does exist, otherwise there would have been an increase in hours in return for your Tracker pay rise this year. The GB CC has been going through huge change over the last 12 months and has only recently achieved a stable condition, with four out of five of its membership being new to the job. Despite this, and to the surprise of the management, they have proved remarkably resilient in their dealings with the company.

Whilst I agree totally that communication with the membership has to improve, not everything can improve straightaway. The recently concluded and successful pay talks have taken the majority of it’s time and resources. The next big challenge will be the upcoming productivity talks, and during this communication with the members will be essential. Constructive comments on the GB Forum are always welcome, cheap shots on Pprune are not.

Sadly, few are willing to show their colours on the forum for fear of being victimised by you know who!:rolleyes:

I can only point you in the direction of a relatively new captain who, as an FO, was particularly vociferous and forthright on the Forum. Although certain management tried to intimidate him, it would appear that his contributions didn’t hinder his career progression. He is also able to say he stood up and was counted.

In my experience a well thought out and constructive post, which doesn’t resort to primary school insults, can only add to the debate. It may even be helpful to the management in working out the mood of their employees.

So you obviously missed his very public dressing down & subsequent grovelling retraction on the company forum!