Me thinks a lot of fishing going on here.

Don't rise to them...

BA are trying a megga David Blaine game and many staff have been caught sleeping.

In fact many staff think the BA are making a good case for change, many staff should show this load of numbers to bank manager who will put them in the bin.

Good Luck to all BA staff...

My last post on the subject:

M.Mouse

BA is valued at 334.14p at close today. Not so long ago it was worth above 700p at the top of the last economic cycle.

While we are now at a period of intensely strong market activity, BA is half its previous value. Not only does that suggest less strength by a long way, but analysts agree.

Penelope Butcher of Morgan Stanley values BA at 280p, while Citigroup value at 350 to 400p. While diverging, neither have the value of the late 90s price.

I leave you to ponder what your owners think.

Goodnight all.

At what level did the same analysists value the dot com companies, just so that we can see how good they really are?

Re heat is a Fisherman - don't take his bait..............................its management disingenuity at best:

"lazy pilots, cant read balance sheet, workshy morons, no idea of real world, prima donnas all, massive cuts needed, who needs a pension, DIY, starve in your old age you b*st*rds, get back in that plane, management must be allowed to manage, imbecilic cretins, boredom with a view, my dog could do it, not really a profession, accept massive cuts, only cityboys know meaning of a days work, sat on arse all day doing nothing, childsplay, etc etc etc".

BA is drifting onto the rocks and everyone who knows the facts sees that. Its just a question of time before the implosion, and I dont mean that graciously surrendering our pension promises so that we can live in increasing penury in old age is the way ahead. BA's aim is to be the 'Walmart of the Skies' to its employees. By the time they have finished, working for Ry@anair may even seem attractive! In the meantime, I have never seen such deceit and moral cowardice from the "management team". Guess you hope you are one of the ones still left standing in the ring when the music stops huh, guys? You get rich, we lose our futures! Some deal! Start preparing the plan for meltdown then, we have nothing to lose here - WW's plans for bidline are clear enough intent, let alone the 'Great Pensions Grab'. If the plan is to "out-Ry@n" the Ry@nair clan, we really have nothing to lose at all - watch this space.

A bit extreme 'ShortFred' perhaps BA might be more akin to the new 'M&S'. However, we at BA need to be aware of change and that whether we like it or not amounts to a loss of pay and conditions, is that not what is happening to most other companies in the UK?

http://dynimg.rte.ie/0000276a0b2.jpg


This is little Willy. Willy wants to join his friends the Oligarchs, but he hasn’t got enough money. Everyday, he has to flick through the pages of Hello magazine at all the yachts, Bentleys, and private jets, but on his tiny salary from BA he can only afford to pay off the debt of a small African dictatorship.


Willy wants more, and you can help. Please, give whatever you can.


You can give half your pension, £500k, or work just a little bit of overtime, maybe just ten years extra so that Willy and his friends can go and play with their new toys.

So please, send your money to me at:


Fly till you die
Prince of Darkness
Death Star
Compass system

Or you can send a disturbance through the force.

Thank you.
http://mellody.co.za/michaela/palpat...or09_small.jpg



http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/410000...83_roobarb.jpg
I’ll take on the opposition anyday. It’s my management I can’t beat!

Do some of you read the posts you are replying to
 

Just thought I'd re-enter the fray here.

Looking back at my original post I think what I was actually trying to say - in reply to the nice chap from Waterside - was that I AM prepared to fight over the pensions issue. It is important and everyone is going to lose out. To be honest I don't think there could be any doubt of that to anyone who got beyond the first paragraph of my post.

As to the general issue of working hours - I don't recall complaining about working 36 hours - in fact we used to do much longer than that. Rather I was simply stating a fact and comparing it to our 12 hour days which some seem to think are an accident waiting to happen. I disagree.

The flight time limitations laid down by the CAA are, I understand, based on some research into fatigue and so it is right we should limit ourselves to those hours in order to keep the public safe. But BA has lower hours limits (at least on short haul) that are based on nothing more than union negotiated agreement for the general happiness of union members. Now there's nothing wrong with that - if we can get away with working less then that's fine with me. But don't try to turn it into a safety issue when it's nothing more than "working less because we fancy it". And don't tell me BA pilots are an efficient work group when they could improve their productivity by over 10% simply by working up to perfectly safe legal limits.

Still, I'm sure WW has his eyes on us all. If he can see off the IRA cartels that ran Aer Lingus I think he's unlikely to be shaken by some mincing pilots.

Slow descent, I may be wrong but I get the impression you haven't been flying as a professional airline pilot for that long. Couple of years maybe? So you may not have been 'bitten' by fatigue yet. One day it will happen to you, make no mistake. Our days are long and tiring. As you get older, it becomes even harder. And the extra task of being in the left hand seat makes it even more tiring. The FTL's are supposed to be absolute limits, not the norm for every day!:hmm:
You don't really believe this, do you?

Oh dear, you really are very new to BA Slow Descent, and I suspect new to this flying business too. Let me explain some things to you. The CAAs CAP371 limits are not based on some research into fatigue, they are based on years of research into fatigue, research which is still ongoing and is some if the most thorough in the field. When the bidline rules limits were thrashed out in the good old days when BA gave a toss about something other than the bottom line, BA recognised that CAP371 was a maximum, not a target. As such the BLR duty limits were set to what BA recognised to be a safer limit, not an easier limit. Short haul BLR limit are rarely more than 30 minutes shorter than scheme limits.

The point you have wholly failed to grasp, and the reason for my belief that you work at LGW, is that you cannot achieve the sort of hours Ryanair pilots get at LHR. Ryanair pilots spend the day on the aircraft, 25 minutes on the ground at each destination, they do 5 or 6 sectors then they go home. That is not possible at LHR. BA cannot reliably achieve even a 45 minute turnaround at LHR. Delays and disruption on the ground are rife. Aircraft changes are commonplace. Try looking at the ration of duty hours to flying hours in BA shorthaul. You'll find that 820 flying hours you'll be logging about 1500 duty hours. To achieve a 10% increase you are looking at least another 150 duty hours, probablyh more due to the inefficiency of short sector days. It is painfully simplistic to say "Oh they could just fly 10% more hours" and completely ignores the fact that people would start to run into all sorts of CAP371 duty limitations.

SD

Try doing some research on fatigue and flight/rest patterns. There is enough of it out there, in fact I took part in one university study.

The existing rules were written a long time ago when things were very different. All the recent valid and relevant research is almost totally ignored by the CAA and by companies as well. Not to mention the attempts by the EU to 'harmonise' FTLs, for harmonise read lowest common denominator.

Your comment about the IRA cartels makes you look stupid as well as ill informed.

RZW30
Spoke to friend who works at Waterside, she tells me that she works 37.5 hours per week as per her contract.
One day out of her monday to friday work pattern she is not allowed to park at waterside due too many cars at waterside.
She has the option of parking remoat and gettin a bus to waterside, which as you state, takes about 25mins or so at the start and finnish of said day.
However she takes option number 2, on the one day a week when she not allowed to park at waterside, she works from home.
She tells me, some staff she works with do much more that 37.5 hours per week, many of them get stressed out, and those extra hours are a waste of time for all, infact cause more problems at work due to lack of focus.
I suggest you do the same as my mate.???

It is interesting indeed to see the effects of BA 'avarice' bouncing back onto the pilots. Apart from trying to 'frighten the horses' they obviously seek sympathy from others here over the prospective loss of a bit of pension.

They do not have mine, nor, I suspect that of a lot of pilots who were the victims of previous 'avarice' and lost a lot more than a bit of pension. In fact they need, probably, at least another 20 years before the last living Laker/DanAir pilot has taken the high-speed turn-off and parked at the great terminal in the sky before they MIGHT achieve full sympathy. The greed of the management and the selfishness of the pilots through their 'London Protection Agency' caused great hardship to many, including loss of health, houses and partners. Add in the newbies without the pension 'comfort' who would probably not 'join in' any action. So, boys and girls, you reap what you sow.

For Danny, whilst I appreciate it is probably unwise to link morality to anything in aviation - and I see the commercial value in having a hot topic on the front page, I question whether allowing such blatant use of this public forum to threaten BA with industrial doom and destruction is correct?

Don't need it. Don't want it.

As far as your plea to Danny to get rid of this thread, it seems like you're attempting to stifle the debate. Are you sure you're not BA management, as this has been their tactic from the moment they realised that BALPA's accountants and actuaries were onto something when they proved BA could afford to pay. :E

Hey walter :yuk: I think you'll find its a promise not a threat,:ok:

Oy. Flt Lt Mitty. I started this thread to draw attention to the befairba.org website. So if you don't mind, we'll continue to do so

HOW DARE YOU! I repeat the reason for the thread - visit befairba.org

I don't give 2 hoots for your opinions, Mitty, I just want to preserve my pension.

Flt Lt Walter Mitty - are you implying that, because I was a member of BA flightcrew in 1996 I am responsible for the disgusting way the Danair takeover was handled by my employer at the time, BA? Are you implying that Freddie Laker's loan arrangements that caused the receivers to be called-in are the direct responsibility of BA line pilots at the time? Do you realise that BALPA would have been shut down under secondary strike action legislation had it organised a strike by BA flightcrew in support of Danair pilots, however much this may have been warranted? Of course you know this.

What you are saying is completely unacceptable, ungrounded in any fact, peddles ruinous hatred and yet seems so eeriely reminiscent of the way BA flight Ops managers respond to any factually-based challenge to their corporate view of the world - raise the emotional temperature with wild allegations and linkages to emotive subjects that are not related to the point at hand and blame BA pilots for everything under the sun. And none of us need or want your sympathy either, mate.

WW has made his agenda clear in his response to the unions rejection of the BA pension "proposal". He has stated that BA seek a cost base at or lower than the lowest the industry can offer as the benchmark. I very much doubt that he will be able to run an airline that functions in the way BA does whilst paying a remuneration package that is equal to or less than the lowest the industry offers, and he is about to find out that this is so.

No more fatuous remarks about City professionals either needed: why compare an apple to a tomato? I dont get an annual bonus that can double or more my salary, unlike BA flight ops managers on rock-solid pensions who will get 250% if they STEAL my future, or certain city types. Nor am I paid what is in effect a compound salary as many city types are, where the burn-out factor is recognised by paying a wage that reflects shorter working lives, such that some City boys n' girls can retire after ten good years - not so in the airline world.

Pay our pensions BA - this isn't Rentokil, where the boss called unionised staff "vermin", and if you think it is - you will reap what you sow indeed.

What utter tripe.


If other folks out there think that I will idly stand by and watch BA take 42% of my pension (deferred pay) then they are in for a shock. I am not militant. I have a vested interest in seeing BA prosper. But I will fight this with the utmost vigour. Theft in all but name.

WW needs us more than we need him.

Also, comparing our job with any other is all well and good, but, like the deficit being the biggest of any FTSE100 company versus MktCap, utterly meaningless.

Idol

i see the summer is round the corner in uk there is a hosepipe ban in the south east but something is missing to make this a proper summer .ah yes i remember it is not summer if ba staff dont go on strike :ok:
thank god for ba we will have a good summer in uk

sikeano

I think you'll find that Easyjet cabin crew are the ones who are talking about striking...

btw please look at befairba.org

Then you might avoid facetious comparisons with hosepipe bans ;)

cheers overstress for that link to be fairba i found this intresting in it
quote :
Pilots are sticking together, young and old, trainees and experienced commanders, to ensure that everyone’s pension is acceptable. We are committed to inter-generational solidarity
what the f:mad: do they mean by inter generational solidarity
i dont think anyone will miss if easyjet cabin crew went on a strike i dont fly with them as a slf
so back to my roses now i suppose and the hose pipe
:ok:

sikeano - I, along with most of my colleagues, am not proud of our record of strike action during the past few summers. If any of the actions have affected you personally, then, speaking as an employee who is proud to fly the BA flag, I apologise. However, it does surely beg the question in this day and age, when management and workers are supposed to parley on first-name and equal terms, why relations break down to such an extent that people are ready to walk out? Does it not perhaps suggest to you that we have some lousy managers (some good ones too, it must be said!)

Fortunately, I think WW has recognised this and I hope manages to rid the airline of the "square pegs" so that we can move forward together.

The pensions issue needs resolving, but I don't think industrial action is a real concern in the short term - only if management remain intransigent. WW has a record of being tough, but fair, and I am sure that, ultimately, a solution acceptable to both sides will be forthcoming.

Meanwhile, more peoples' are being shafted over their pensions:

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=224809

This story might be of interest to some - it relates to employees being legitimately sacked for refusing to accept new pension arrangements, particularly where there is a "sound, good business reason" for the change in pension provision.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4753703.stm

Why work for BA then ?
 

People working for BA are always moaning ! As a passenger, I have stopped flying BA because all I hear is doom and gloom. The company treats everyone like S*** and people are always either threatening to strike, leaving or being fired. Even the catering companies hate them. Time before last when I travelled the APU was not working and water peed out of the A/C system onto my lunch while crew allowed a passenger to get steadily more drunk and start to get out of control. To top that on the next flight in europe we had to put up with no food while Business class had lunch ! Smart move BA - last time for me. Prices change without warning and the service is second rate - I am talking ground here most of the time!

Why o why does everyone who works for this operation put up with it. LEAVE !:eek:

PS I know the APU is not that important but if it had been that three engined flight accross the pond and ..............you know. Also it makes me think what else is not working and why when 300 people are on board are those risks acceptable.BA is not AIR BONGO or is it ?

Just two posts northernlights? Wonder if your first one was as much drivel.

bealine dude
i did not mean to be rude i never been affected by strike from ba that is the only airline i use when i travel as a slf it is sometimes more comfortable than the herc which transports me and the girls are definetly good looking in ba than in mine .dude if you think you are been cheated and strike is the only action go for it .I reckon when you look at the big picture (my view is biased here due to reading rubbish in newspapers ) the big pension hole in ba which needs to be filled and good old ww is filling it by asking you guys to work longer so in five years time it might breakeven
.my reckoning is that plonker bob ayling should be shot for wasting all money on paints and having too many freeloaders on ba's payroll

The last two contributions are surely a reflection of the 'BA Way' if 'Northlights' wishes to make a comment that is his perogative. The issue that it may not be relavant to the true spirit of the thread is another matter. It certainly does not have to be drivel either as if that is the case then 90% of the musings on the subject are no more than drivel. Some of us at BA are concerned for the passengers services and do not spend all of our time winging, I can assure northlights that 'safety' is still our first priority and please accept my apologies.

No, a few more posts than that, and I think my first post made reasonable sense!
Please note the difference in user-names before attributing such rubbish to me! :)

Northern Lights we have an extensive customer services department. If you have received a service below the standard that you expect, require please formalise your observations with our company. It will be appreciated further than this forum can offer you.

Yet another BA employee who replies without reading the poster's name properly.
Is an inability to read a requirement in BA? :O

Let's start again. :-)

Just two posts northernlightIII? Wonder if your first one was as much drivel.

Thats quite right Northern Lights BA taught me to fly not to read that blame lies with Christs College, never realised the popularity of your name my mistake find it amazing that there are so many of you out there. It must be difficult

may be of interest....
 

As this is about pensions.

I have a question.

From April 2010 can APS or NAPS members draw pension at 50 or 55 years of age.???

I believe the answer is yes to 55 but a greatly reduced level to that which you could currently expect at 55.

Hand Solo.

Think most belive from 55 as of April 2010.....

The answer is different...can anybody guess how the rule changes have been applied to APS and NAPS.???

Defending my position
 

Correct, I am a client not flight crew. I was making an observation as it seems there is much unhappiness within the organisation and it filters through to the passengers when you travel.
Furthermore the number of posts I have made does not mean I don't understand the system. I was flying BOAC, DAN AIR and many others in days when service and reputaion counted for something. Complaining to customer services got me a standard letter so I just can't be bothered to pursue it - press one , press 4 , press 3, press eject ! :ugh:
Dont' use safety as an excuse either, anyone can do that , you have rules to follow or the CAA will ground you.
Accept that moral needs to be looked at and that all the meetings and more meetings and more meetings about the meetings etc will not solve it.
Give your guys something to smile about in the morning and see what happens to your profits then. People make a business work and thier attitude and actions determine the success of that operation.
At Virgin they are nice and make an effort even if they might have the odd flight attendant who doesn't like flying they seem alot more interested.

PS Also their transatlantic flights are done with four engines not three !

This thread seems to have been running forever. Not seen or heard of a strike.

hi !
from the other side of the channel .....:ouch: ;)
here, we have a huge problem with the legal age of retirement also !
would like to know what's goin' on by your side, specially for BA's pilots ! will it be 60 or are you gonna do the big jump to 65 promptly ( I can't believe it....!!) ! I was also wondering what is the max. for your CAA ?
and finally does anybody know if the FAA has increased the age of retirement (60 ) for the US pilots (as the ICAO decided to stand for 65...)

p.s : sorry for my poor english:O

There hasn't been one and hopefully there won't need to be one but rest assured there will be if the company continue to take the pee.

You can bet on the strike, the timing of which is a function of BA's imposition, possibly via the trustees of the BA pension scheme, of terms that will represent a cut in remuneration of such magnitude that BA's pilots will be united in their opposition as never before.

Meanwhile, BA carry-on with the campaign of low-level harassment of the flight crew workforce designed to up the turnover of flight crew to a level "comparable with industries outside aviation". A cleverly instituted policy of "everyone is the same" leaves flightcrew facing awesome responsibility yet receiving no acknowledgement of it from BA at a corporate level such that "command" becomes a hollow word: who will act on a Commander's wishes if it is demonstrably obvious that BA pay no respect to the holders of such a position?

If you dare to be ill, expect a sickness policy designed for an office-based organisation that takes no account of the physiological effect of flight on the human body, such that people who are patently ill come to work to avoid being placed in an Orwellian programme of attendance management that is an insult to flight professionals and a threat to flight safety.

BA's work current work allocation arrangements are based on seniority and so transparent, yet BA plan a system of near permanent reserve for their crew, where drafting at 7 days notice would be a regular feature of a roster that PLANS to achieve the legal LIMIT wherever possible. The fact that this will render great chunks of family life all but impossible is just too bad, eh, in an airline that "tours" its shorthaul pilots in hotels in Europe as well as seeking the legal limit on flying hours from its longhaul crew. But that’s OK, as divorce is a career hazard for flightcrew, isn't it, and anyway, the little s@ds deserve it for the loaf of a job they enjoy, eh?!

Meanwhile, across the organisation, morale plummets and repetitive faults appear on aircraft maintained by a fantastic group of professionals who BA have abused for years - its engineers. They are, it appears to me, overwhelmed by the never-ending re-organisation from the latest whiz kid desperate to make his mark and move on up the management food chain.

But a low morale, high-turnover, declining experience-base workforce is just fine because it will make it CHEAP CHEAP CHEAP and boy, that is where we have to go to keep those 250% management bonuses rolling-in.

Don’t worry though, because "safety is our first priority". Right. Bring on the strike - lets get it over with and leave aviation to that great customer service expert, Mike O L@ary, and his men from the Emerald Isle. They care, and it shows, (witness any documentary coming your way soon), and with the IAA in charge, all will be well for sure.

Union Support...... NOT
 

Thanks for that ShortFinalFred.... Us Engineers loves ya! :}
WARNING.. Mini thread Hi-jack alert
We'll be there right next to you when it all kicks off. And just to let you know how much support us Licenced chaps are getting from (sh)amicus thought THIS would make you all smile :(
Thread Hi-jack over :ugh:
PLM