We should ask for more money
 

For the last 15 years pilot salaries did not change much although
every airline is short of pilots.

I think it is about time for all pilots to demand more money afterall
we are the ones who are checked every six months,we are the ones who can not make a single mistake,we are the ones who miss most of our family occasions,and we are the ones who are
no longer humans according to rostering departments, we are either legal or not legal.......

Every airline is short of pilots, and for the coming years demand
will be much more,this is our time and airlines must increase the
salaries if they want to keep their pilots.

Exactly right you are--- but here comes the one million dollar question:

How to realize that ? :ugh:

Join the union, get your mates to join the union and then push your representatives to get militant with the management at pay negotiation time.

Unions are toothless if they don't have a high percentage of the workforce as members.

Those non-members who bitch about pay are their own worst enemies, as well as their colleagues.

I think when applying for a new job or just renewing another
contract with your existing company,simply ask for more,at one time we needed the airlines, now they need us.

I hope you do agree that there is a severe shortage of experienced pilots ,and for the airlines things will not get any better soon, times are not like before where if you do not like
it leave.

We used to be long long time ago highly paid professionals,
not any more,now within the airline people who used to cash half our salaries are making more money than us.

If we compare our income with other professionals,we are the poor people now!!!

I think it is time to move .

Tarik,

there is one little problem with leaving/changing jobs as a pilot and that is -> Seniority. There is no other profession I know of, where one starts all over again when changing jobs to another Airline.

You could be a commander of the Space Shuttle and change jobs, you still would start as the Junior F/O with payscale one.

I guess changing the seniority by using the date of the first line check on the Aircraft category / type you fly could be a start to reward experience. Unfortunately, it would be foolish to believe, that this will ever happen. The large unions are usually partial to specific Airlines.

Hmm...my job involves my being checked every six months. I'm not allowed to make a mistake - and a mistake would potentially cost my company a fortune. I have to work awkward shifts, I'm never really off-duty, and frequently have to spend long periods away from my family.

But I'll bet you anything that my salary isn't even half of a pilot's.

Sorry for the lack of sympathy but I get fed up of hearing pilots moan about their salaries and their hard-time professions. If it's that bad, why did you bother when you could have had a family-oriented, 9-5 job with a modest-but-liveable income?

No-one held a gun to your head to do your job, in the same way that no-one held a gun to mine.

There's no such thing as a pilot shortage. Don't like it? Stop whining and leave, and make room for someone who genuinely wants the job.

Iam very curious to know what you do to compare yourself with us pilots, and definately a mistake in your job would cost 200+
lives including your own,not to mention that when you work awkward hours you still have to bring your aircraft safe regardless how you physically feel.

Man it is people like you we need to fight, who have no clue what do we really do.

We pilots are on demand know,unless you can replace us with
your awkward time job, it is time to stand firm and ask for our salary 15 years ago plus inflation.

Tarik123
Take a long look around you, I don’t know which world you’re living in, but you need take off your rose coloured specials.
Many airlines are in serious financial trouble, both in Europe and the U.S., the last thing they need is another demand to undermine public confidence in the industry.
The ordinary man in the street already believes many airline employees are overpaid, from mechanics to pilots. They have little sympathy with pay increase demands from people already making good money, when they are held to 2-3% increases on salaries less than half of yours. Demands like this only serve to convince your passengers of how out of touch you are with the real world.
As to your comments on how terribly important you are…………What an attitude.
Regards,
W.B.

I-FORD
Knock yourself out, double the ticket prices. Please.
The industry is already peopled by too many ‘cowboys’, perhaps this strategy will get rid of a few.
No other transit business behaves like commercial airlines. For other transit businesses the ticket price is the ticket price, on a bus, a train, a ferry, or any other mode of transportation, it doesn’t matter if you purchase your ticket 3 months ahead, 3 weeks ahead, 3 days ahead, or 3 minutes ahead of travel, the price is the same. Except for air travel. Now why would the most technically advanced travel industry in the world sell its tickets like used car salesmen?
There is no structure, no sense to it. It’s no wonder there’s no stability.
If you really want to do something, why not address this lunacy?
W.B.

White Bear

You are missing the point here, yes there are airlines in the US
that are not doing well but this I can assure you was not caused by their pilots.

As for pilot salaries do you agree that they did not change for
a long time.

If my remarks about the nature of our job sounded offensive!!
I honestly did not mean to do so.

One solution we all can start doing is not to accept underpaying
jobs when applying for a new airline.

Way to go indeed, completely agree with you Tarik.

We are now in a better position to increase our T&C's. Why should you be ashamed of asking for more when your company is doing well (or not so bad) ? Ryanair pilots and other staff got 3% pay rise recently. The same goes for Excel Airways. I see nothing wrong in benefiting from the relatively healthy industry we are working in at the moment, nevermind the price of fuel.
I personaly take great satisfaction in to being a "team player" and go the extra mile when management asks me.
I have invested heavily in flight training with NO guarantee whatsoever of a job with NO support from any one.
I, as a flight crew, am in the spotlight should, god forbid, anything happen.


I have joined BALPA and will make sure from now on that my representatives hear my voice.

SF

Airlines are just using basic economics to ensure decent loads. But they are 'cheating' in that they aren't allowing the same free market rules when paying pilots. But does cheating exist as a concept in this business? :hmm:

The way I see it, tarik is right in that supply and demand should allow pilots to ask for and get more pay as they become 'scarce'. Unfortunately, this can't apply generally, but instead only to a pilot who has the particular skills set and experience that an airline needs at that time. Fine for a while, but what happens when you're no longer flavour of the month? Most airlines will not forget that you (as they'll, incorrectly, see it) held them to ransom... :uhoh:

The hell with seniority, how about we all go on contract and just take the money and run? :E

btw WhiteBear,

Complete rubbish. You get huge discount on UK rail fares if you book 7days in advance and some discount 24hr in advance. The price of a ticket also changes depending on what time of day/day of week you make your journey.If it isn't too obvious to say so, used car salesmen sell products, airlines sell services. Incomparable.

The ordinary man in the street thinks everybody is overpaid except himself. Lawyers, Surveyors, Estate Agents, Salesmen etc etc

The market rate for the job has gone up whether the man in the street likes it or not. Experienced pilots are few and far between and so the rate goes up.

Here in Europe most airlines are reporting record profits. Most of the airlines in the USA are still in Chapter 11 so why is this? Why can't they make profit whilst EU airlines can?

With management in all industries taking more and more of the profit it's time to increase our share.

I have been working with different airlines for the last 25 years, they all brag about expansion,they all throw money like it is not
ever going to run out, and when we ask for what we deserve,the
answer is always the same, the company is losing.

AS for supply and demand,I was recently in a meeting with my
CEO, and this is his exact words" For the next 5 years airlines
will be very lucky if they manage to keep their pilots"

Guys you only have to open the websites of most of the airlines
in the middle east,far east all the way to Japan ,every single airline is looking for pilots.

Some airlines are buying aircrafts like we buy potatos,and
aviation expansion will not stop anytime soon.

I agree with Tarik 100%...and all those posts from white bear and the other loser who do not want us from asking more money are just jealous of our beautiful profession...
The fact that we do the greatest job on earth does not imply we should not act like highly skilled professionals who are assessed on their abilities and quality every 3 months on average (2 medicals plus 2 sim checks....on average). we deserve more money....let's all join our Unions and fight for what we find to be fair!!

tmr

better be fast.....




http://www.peakoil.nl/images/ponlreport.pdf

Tarik is correct the pay and conditions as a professional pilot have dropped so much over the last twenty years that it is no longer a financially attractive profession.

BALPA has a lot to answer to and it is they who should now seriously push for major improvements. One big problem we have is with how pay increases are arrived at. Many airlines now use a comparison with similar airlines, so if xxx airline only offers a 2% pay rise that is what the rest of us receive. I am not a great one for cross comparisons in other industries but a GP ( who was once paid a similar if not lower amount to a pilot) is now earning around £100,000 according to a recent newspaper article whereas the average pilot salary is considerably less. As for pilots just entering the industry having to pay £60k for their initial training and then only receiving £15k salary is insane. The accountants have got wise to the fact that we actually enjoy flying and there are people who will do nearly anything to achieve that first job, not that I can blame them but this is partly to blame for the problems we are facing.

For those of you who think we are already over paid whingers, why? Should all employees be dragged down to the lowest common denominator. Maybe you should start a campaign so that every one throughout the world is paid the same amount as a paper boy. I for one want to improve my way of life to the maximum. Therefore I will continue to push for improvements in my industry, and I suggest you strive to improve your chosen employer to improve your conditions rather than trying to drag the rest of us down.

If you pay peanuts then you will get monkeys.... It applies in most fields except aviation..

Professional pride and love of flying is the reason why most of us fly. Money cannot be sooo important as a good professionally executed flight. The only problem is, many of the management have got the idea that pilots are the only suckers who will do their job for peanuts. They feel if we get a flight than they are doing us a favour by increasing our experience for free. It is a very careful balance when it is felt that a pilot is experienced enough and can be paid a huge salary. The management has pushed this view to a ridiculous extent and now it is generally viewed that if a person is a senior TRI or TRE he should be considered a "special person". Most of the damage is sadly done by some pilots in order to push their own importance at the cost of the profession as a whole.

Well the time has come that such thought processes need a tad bit of reviewing- to maintain the professional flight standards and not allow the management to interfere with the professional requirements. But some airlines which have gradually allowed operational control shift out of the hands of the pilots and into the hands of "businessman" and marketing are soon going to see things backfire. The writing is on the wall..

The paycuts which many airline pilots have experienced is a manifestation of the changes in the thinking in aviation circles.

Once again this a personal opinion...

JagBAg , what are you trying to say?...what is your contribution sorry?
For those of us who really want to do something about this issue...so to increase OUR SALARIES, We must join strong Unions and work with them and with the Airlines to get better deals.

We Will Win....

but we must act....stop chatting about it and coming back home think: Are you doing anything to improve your situation?..what can you do? why haven't you joined your union yet?...

let's ACT guys!

TMR

What I am trying to say is that the negative mindset has to be reversed. All of us are members of unions IPA, BALPA etc. Personally this has made no difference in my needs, ambitions or professional furtherance.

The main reason is that a mindset has set in which is difficult to change because everyone is so focussed on getting more pay they have lost sight of "why" they should get more pay.... is it necessary to pay a pilot so much, when (as one of a management put it) ... he is just a driver!

If you need any further explanation then p.m. Also what is your contribution? This is not the only forum where people are harping on joining unions etc.. It is there in the Easy forum also .. so what have you said that is new?

my aim is not to say something which has to be new and original by all means. actually i 'm glad it's already been said..as that shows some of us want to change the situation for real and aren't just looking at it with your negative point of view.

we don't obviously feel like "drivers" and we know we are extremely precious to our airlines....which are growing fast and making more money than ever.

we deserve more and we're gonna get it.
think positive and then do something about it.


tmr

While we're at it lets get rid of the 'pay for your rating' cancer that's slowly killing this occupation.

Wait for it.. an avalanche of replies saying aviaiton owes me nothing, yet the management of most airlines never paid for a rating but they prescribe the pills at present.

BFB

tarik - get a life.
Yes you can kill 200+ people and yourself, if you make a lot of mistakes.

But are your seriously telling me that one little mistake, like switching the wrong button is going to bring down the plane. So you never fly a trip and do anything wrong!!

No

At the end of the day, you are a commodity and market forces set your salary, just like any other job.

badbiccychucker

Although i agree to an extent you are right about pay being a factor of the market , i do not think that this is really the key issue.

The real issue is that you should be paid what is right for the job you do, how hard you work and how much responsibility you hold. I think we would all agree that top footballs who get thousands of pounds a month for kicking a ball around do not really deserve it! I think people who hold real responability e.g. pilots, doctors, ATC and other similar jobs deserve that pay over any football player.

Im not suggesting that pilots be paid millions a year, I just think that people on here want to be paid for the job you do and not what the market defines as right at the time.

Regards all

Chris

badbiccychucker first off all I

badbiccychucker first of all I do not know if you are a pilot or not!!

As for a button,maybe it will not kill you, but honestly in your career did you ever had to make a decision in a matter of seconds that was a bit more important and crucial than your button??

In aviation we are exposed to lots of very harmful things,starting
with the weather radar that we literaly sit on top to so many
other things that our bodies are exposed to.

Can you tell me why lots of airlines pay very good salaries
and yet they always make profit.

Recently the fuel prices went up, almost every airline managed
to generate more income by simply adding a fuel tax on the
ticket price, yet althougt the ticket prices went up, most of the
airlines reported profit this year!!!!

So why the very cheap tickets????

Great Tarik!
 

You are at the point! Excellent post.
What some fellows fail to notice is that we are talking about experienced professionals, with established careers, at this point in time. And for those, seniority is irrelevant.

For instance, a DEC is admitted at airline A for 10,000$ a month. Airline B badly needs experienced captains for their sparkling new big birds, unavailable for the moment.
The only way to fix things? Offer that DEC 12,000; 15,000$ or whatever necessary to compensate the burden of the move...
This is market law fundamentals.

This is exactly my point, when a company requires civil engineers
for example ,they place an add in the newspapers,and they always state that the pay will be between two figures depending
on the applicants experience.

Only in our profession,no matter how experienced we are ,we still
join at the bottom of the payscale!!!

I think it is time to all join hands and change the rules of the game.

WHO ARE WE KIDDING????
 

While we undoubtedly have a responsible and oft-demanding job - we are not alone in this and there are some extremely pompous comments in these threads..

1.Subway drivers on each rush-hour trip have over 1000 lives in their hands and earn very little. 2.Doctors/Nurses/Paramedics are professional, highly trained and earn !!!!! money compared with us.
3. These are just two examples and there are plenty more.
Every job is demanding in its own way, we are nothing special.

I am very lucky - I do a job that I love, I am reasonably rewarded financially in our market sector. We have some status and get to sleep with CC (ok, so there are some downsides).

Yes we all think we are worth more, so if the salary is not up to your high standards......you know the answer!

btw I've made plenty of mistakes and my pax/crew and I are still alive!

threegreenlights.... what a silly response.... :rolleyes:

1. A subway driver... is a driver! Driving a vehicle running on rails, heavily controlled by others in signalling etc... no comparison, and they are unskilled.
You are joking, they start on about 30K, that is way more than a new start F/O on a turbo prop...

2. I have yet to see a doctor on "!!!!! money"...!


What a stupid immature statement... if you really are in the industry you must be one of these yougsters who all stary eyed paid up for a type rating to fly a shiny jet... :mad:

The only way this industry will change regards management attitude towards us is to stop the 'buying type ratings scam'.

If you don't believe me, just poke your head into the wanabes forum and see all the gushing about 'buying a job'... thats just it, it is a job , anf the youngsters have to understand that. These guys have too much money to spend on flying and see no problem with buying themselves into a job, management know it and use it as a lever on all aircrew.

Doomsayer maybe, but shortage or not, its gonna get worse before it gets better, unless we can get Balpa off their cozy arses and do something!!

COME COME DEAR CHAP...........
 

I see we not only get pompous statements but rather rude ones too.....

I understand that you want more money - don't we all.
I was merely trying to point out lots of other people have responsible jobs and comparing like with like is seldom realistic or enhances your argument.....as you seem to have discovered from my thread.

We have to look at our own industrial sector and try and intelligently improve our situation - not only for us but also for future staff. Doubtless BALPA will have its say on the matter and we will all wait with baited breath for the response.....as before.

In the meantime, ranting - rudely or otherwise - is not going to endear you or advance your case to anyone.....and it's certainly not very good for your BP

Now if you want to harangue me about my comments re the CC - please go ahead, I do admit to having a rather murky sense of humour....but most people love me for it and don't take me TOO seriously;)

So all criticisms gratefully received and noted. Thank you.:cool:

threegreenlights
 

Hang on a minute - you seem to be contradicting yourself a little here. A minute ago you yourself were comparing us to those other professions and implying we shouldnt ask for more money because they are not (in your opinion) paid a lot either. But now you say comparing like with like is not realistic??

Well isnt that Tarik 123's point?? Not wishing to sound rude or pompous, but im confused as to your point?

I also have another major complaint about your post:

Ive been flying for an airline for almost a year now and i havent slept with a single cc! This is yet another example of how my T's and C's are being continually eroded. What are BALPA doing about this?? ;) (No comments about poor social skills or body odour problems please - i can assure you im clean and fairly likeable!)

...Over paid and underworked. If you don't like it try something else.

If you can find something better paid for working 100 hours in 28 days then go for it.

waco

what you suggest is a very one sided point of view. If that were the case someone working part time stacking selfs at tesco's for 100 hours a month would be earning the same pay as a pilot, or visa versa.

You should be pay for your responsbility and pressures in your job as well as the training your job requires, not how many hours you work a week.

Interesting point then Chris....

20 years ago when I started in the industry many aircraft had x2 vor,dme adf and loran/decca.

Presently, most aircraft have sophisticated flight management systems making the job easier....perhaps therefore wages should have been reduced ?

No waco the job has changed in terms of its requirements. responsibilities haven changed. skill set has been changed slightly.
although FMS's make jobs easier in one way, it makes it harder in others. sometimes flying the old 73 is easier than the newer version (and even airbusses). What the **** is it doing now?! confusion.
Still not many people are responsible of getting people from one destination safe to the other. It requires constant re-training/learning etc
this happens in other jobs too granted but probably not often with the same immediate effects.

Just a couple of further points if I may. Firstly, virtually every job these days is subject to constant change. Secondly, are we saying it was easier to fly an unpressuirised DC-4 from London to Idewild in 1950 than it is to fly a B744 today on the same route ?

Waco

I think you have seen a lot in your 20 years of experience to
agree that what we do can not be compared with any other profession,and honestly I do not think your comments about
more advanced machines, less money is realistic.

You want to convince me that a doctor who is been practising medicine for the last 20 years,is making less money now than
when he started 20 years ago because his job is much easier
now!!!

Okay then, what about supply and demand. Thanks to the likes of CTC people will pay to fly for an airline !

Really does not help your cause

I agree very much with Shaka Zulu. I am not yet a pilot so i don’t pretend to know the ins and outs; I am also just about to start training with CTC ;) (sorry guys and grls its my fault your pay is all going down.)

But the truth is FMS, GPS INS and all the other more modern aids are designed to make the job easier and more importantly safer, so that pilots time can be spent managing the aircraft rather than needing all his/her attention just keeping it going in the right direction.

I’m sure you will agree that the captain is still in charge on the aircraft so in fact his/her responsibility will not have changed from a captain 20 years ago, although the tools at his disposal have improved.

so it easier then