We should ask for more money
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We should ask for more money
For the last 15 years pilot salaries did not change much although
every airline is short of pilots.
I think it is about time for all pilots to demand more money afterall
we are the ones who are checked every six months,we are the ones who can not make a single mistake,we are the ones who miss most of our family occasions,and we are the ones who are
no longer humans according to rostering departments, we are either legal or not legal.......
Every airline is short of pilots, and for the coming years demand
will be much more,this is our time and airlines must increase the
salaries if they want to keep their pilots.
every airline is short of pilots.
I think it is about time for all pilots to demand more money afterall
we are the ones who are checked every six months,we are the ones who can not make a single mistake,we are the ones who miss most of our family occasions,and we are the ones who are
no longer humans according to rostering departments, we are either legal or not legal.......
Every airline is short of pilots, and for the coming years demand
will be much more,this is our time and airlines must increase the
salaries if they want to keep their pilots.
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Join the union, get your mates to join the union and then push your representatives to get militant with the management at pay negotiation time.
Unions are toothless if they don't have a high percentage of the workforce as members.
Those non-members who bitch about pay are their own worst enemies, as well as their colleagues.
Unions are toothless if they don't have a high percentage of the workforce as members.
Those non-members who bitch about pay are their own worst enemies, as well as their colleagues.
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I think when applying for a new job or just renewing another
contract with your existing company,simply ask for more,at one time we needed the airlines, now they need us.
I hope you do agree that there is a severe shortage of experienced pilots ,and for the airlines things will not get any better soon, times are not like before where if you do not like
it leave.
We used to be long long time ago highly paid professionals,
not any more,now within the airline people who used to cash half our salaries are making more money than us.
If we compare our income with other professionals,we are the poor people now!!!
I think it is time to move .
contract with your existing company,simply ask for more,at one time we needed the airlines, now they need us.
I hope you do agree that there is a severe shortage of experienced pilots ,and for the airlines things will not get any better soon, times are not like before where if you do not like
it leave.
We used to be long long time ago highly paid professionals,
not any more,now within the airline people who used to cash half our salaries are making more money than us.
If we compare our income with other professionals,we are the poor people now!!!
I think it is time to move .
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Tarik,
there is one little problem with leaving/changing jobs as a pilot and that is -> Seniority. There is no other profession I know of, where one starts all over again when changing jobs to another Airline.
You could be a commander of the Space Shuttle and change jobs, you still would start as the Junior F/O with payscale one.
I guess changing the seniority by using the date of the first line check on the Aircraft category / type you fly could be a start to reward experience. Unfortunately, it would be foolish to believe, that this will ever happen. The large unions are usually partial to specific Airlines.
there is one little problem with leaving/changing jobs as a pilot and that is -> Seniority. There is no other profession I know of, where one starts all over again when changing jobs to another Airline.
You could be a commander of the Space Shuttle and change jobs, you still would start as the Junior F/O with payscale one.
I guess changing the seniority by using the date of the first line check on the Aircraft category / type you fly could be a start to reward experience. Unfortunately, it would be foolish to believe, that this will ever happen. The large unions are usually partial to specific Airlines.
Last edited by Avius; 24th Nov 2005 at 03:18.
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Hmm...my job involves my being checked every six months. I'm not allowed to make a mistake - and a mistake would potentially cost my company a fortune. I have to work awkward shifts, I'm never really off-duty, and frequently have to spend long periods away from my family.
But I'll bet you anything that my salary isn't even half of a pilot's.
Sorry for the lack of sympathy but I get fed up of hearing pilots moan about their salaries and their hard-time professions. If it's that bad, why did you bother when you could have had a family-oriented, 9-5 job with a modest-but-liveable income?
No-one held a gun to your head to do your job, in the same way that no-one held a gun to mine.
There's no such thing as a pilot shortage. Don't like it? Stop whining and leave, and make room for someone who genuinely wants the job.
But I'll bet you anything that my salary isn't even half of a pilot's.
Sorry for the lack of sympathy but I get fed up of hearing pilots moan about their salaries and their hard-time professions. If it's that bad, why did you bother when you could have had a family-oriented, 9-5 job with a modest-but-liveable income?
No-one held a gun to your head to do your job, in the same way that no-one held a gun to mine.
There's no such thing as a pilot shortage. Don't like it? Stop whining and leave, and make room for someone who genuinely wants the job.
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Iam very curious to know what you do to compare yourself with us pilots, and definately a mistake in your job would cost 200+
lives including your own,not to mention that when you work awkward hours you still have to bring your aircraft safe regardless how you physically feel.
Man it is people like you we need to fight, who have no clue what do we really do.
We pilots are on demand know,unless you can replace us with
your awkward time job, it is time to stand firm and ask for our salary 15 years ago plus inflation.
lives including your own,not to mention that when you work awkward hours you still have to bring your aircraft safe regardless how you physically feel.
Man it is people like you we need to fight, who have no clue what do we really do.
We pilots are on demand know,unless you can replace us with
your awkward time job, it is time to stand firm and ask for our salary 15 years ago plus inflation.
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Tarik123
Take a long look around you, I don’t know which world you’re living in, but you need take off your rose coloured specials.
Many airlines are in serious financial trouble, both in Europe and the U.S., the last thing they need is another demand to undermine public confidence in the industry.
The ordinary man in the street already believes many airline employees are overpaid, from mechanics to pilots. They have little sympathy with pay increase demands from people already making good money, when they are held to 2-3% increases on salaries less than half of yours. Demands like this only serve to convince your passengers of how out of touch you are with the real world.
As to your comments on how terribly important you are…………What an attitude.
Regards,
W.B.
Take a long look around you, I don’t know which world you’re living in, but you need take off your rose coloured specials.
Many airlines are in serious financial trouble, both in Europe and the U.S., the last thing they need is another demand to undermine public confidence in the industry.
The ordinary man in the street already believes many airline employees are overpaid, from mechanics to pilots. They have little sympathy with pay increase demands from people already making good money, when they are held to 2-3% increases on salaries less than half of yours. Demands like this only serve to convince your passengers of how out of touch you are with the real world.
As to your comments on how terribly important you are…………What an attitude.
Regards,
W.B.
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I-FORD
Knock yourself out, double the ticket prices. Please.
The industry is already peopled by too many ‘cowboys’, perhaps this strategy will get rid of a few.
No other transit business behaves like commercial airlines. For other transit businesses the ticket price is the ticket price, on a bus, a train, a ferry, or any other mode of transportation, it doesn’t matter if you purchase your ticket 3 months ahead, 3 weeks ahead, 3 days ahead, or 3 minutes ahead of travel, the price is the same. Except for air travel. Now why would the most technically advanced travel industry in the world sell its tickets like used car salesmen?
There is no structure, no sense to it. It’s no wonder there’s no stability.
If you really want to do something, why not address this lunacy?
W.B.
Knock yourself out, double the ticket prices. Please.
The industry is already peopled by too many ‘cowboys’, perhaps this strategy will get rid of a few.
No other transit business behaves like commercial airlines. For other transit businesses the ticket price is the ticket price, on a bus, a train, a ferry, or any other mode of transportation, it doesn’t matter if you purchase your ticket 3 months ahead, 3 weeks ahead, 3 days ahead, or 3 minutes ahead of travel, the price is the same. Except for air travel. Now why would the most technically advanced travel industry in the world sell its tickets like used car salesmen?
There is no structure, no sense to it. It’s no wonder there’s no stability.
If you really want to do something, why not address this lunacy?
W.B.
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White Bear
You are missing the point here, yes there are airlines in the US
that are not doing well but this I can assure you was not caused by their pilots.
As for pilot salaries do you agree that they did not change for
a long time.
If my remarks about the nature of our job sounded offensive!!
I honestly did not mean to do so.
One solution we all can start doing is not to accept underpaying
jobs when applying for a new airline.
You are missing the point here, yes there are airlines in the US
that are not doing well but this I can assure you was not caused by their pilots.
As for pilot salaries do you agree that they did not change for
a long time.
If my remarks about the nature of our job sounded offensive!!
I honestly did not mean to do so.
One solution we all can start doing is not to accept underpaying
jobs when applying for a new airline.
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Way to go indeed, completely agree with you Tarik.
We are now in a better position to increase our T&C's. Why should you be ashamed of asking for more when your company is doing well (or not so bad) ? Ryanair pilots and other staff got 3% pay rise recently. The same goes for Excel Airways. I see nothing wrong in benefiting from the relatively healthy industry we are working in at the moment, nevermind the price of fuel.
I personaly take great satisfaction in to being a "team player" and go the extra mile when management asks me.
I have invested heavily in flight training with NO guarantee whatsoever of a job with NO support from any one.
I, as a flight crew, am in the spotlight should, god forbid, anything happen.
I have joined BALPA and will make sure from now on that my representatives hear my voice.
SF
We are now in a better position to increase our T&C's. Why should you be ashamed of asking for more when your company is doing well (or not so bad) ? Ryanair pilots and other staff got 3% pay rise recently. The same goes for Excel Airways. I see nothing wrong in benefiting from the relatively healthy industry we are working in at the moment, nevermind the price of fuel.
I personaly take great satisfaction in to being a "team player" and go the extra mile when management asks me.
I have invested heavily in flight training with NO guarantee whatsoever of a job with NO support from any one.
I, as a flight crew, am in the spotlight should, god forbid, anything happen.
I have joined BALPA and will make sure from now on that my representatives hear my voice.
SF
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Airlines are just using basic economics to ensure decent loads. But they are 'cheating' in that they aren't allowing the same free market rules when paying pilots. But does cheating exist as a concept in this business? 
The way I see it, tarik is right in that supply and demand should allow pilots to ask for and get more pay as they become 'scarce'. Unfortunately, this can't apply generally, but instead only to a pilot who has the particular skills set and experience that an airline needs at that time. Fine for a while, but what happens when you're no longer flavour of the month? Most airlines will not forget that you (as they'll, incorrectly, see it) held them to ransom...
The hell with seniority, how about we all go on contract and just take the money and run?
btw WhiteBear,
Complete rubbish. You get huge discount on UK rail fares if you book 7days in advance and some discount 24hr in advance. The price of a ticket also changes depending on what time of day/day of week you make your journey.
If it isn't too obvious to say so, used car salesmen sell products, airlines sell services. Incomparable.
The way I see it, tarik is right in that supply and demand should allow pilots to ask for and get more pay as they become 'scarce'. Unfortunately, this can't apply generally, but instead only to a pilot who has the particular skills set and experience that an airline needs at that time. Fine for a while, but what happens when you're no longer flavour of the month? Most airlines will not forget that you (as they'll, incorrectly, see it) held them to ransom...
The hell with seniority, how about we all go on contract and just take the money and run?
btw WhiteBear,
No other transit business behaves like commercial airlines. For other transit businesses the ticket price is the ticket price, on a bus, a train, a ferry, or any other mode of transportation, it doesn’t matter if you purchase your ticket 3 months ahead, 3 weeks ahead, 3 days ahead, or 3 minutes ahead of travel, the price is the same
Now why would the most technically advanced travel industry in the world sell its tickets like used car salesmen?
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The ordinary man in the street already believes many airline employees are overpaid, from mechanics to pilots. They have little sympathy with pay increase demands from people already making good money, when they are held to 2-3% increases on salaries less than half of yours. Demands like this only serve to convince your passengers of how out of touch you are with the real world.
The market rate for the job has gone up whether the man in the street likes it or not. Experienced pilots are few and far between and so the rate goes up.
Here in Europe most airlines are reporting record profits. Most of the airlines in the USA are still in Chapter 11 so why is this? Why can't they make profit whilst EU airlines can?
With management in all industries taking more and more of the profit it's time to increase our share.
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I have been working with different airlines for the last 25 years, they all brag about expansion,they all throw money like it is not
ever going to run out, and when we ask for what we deserve,the
answer is always the same, the company is losing.
AS for supply and demand,I was recently in a meeting with my
CEO, and this is his exact words" For the next 5 years airlines
will be very lucky if they manage to keep their pilots"
Guys you only have to open the websites of most of the airlines
in the middle east,far east all the way to Japan ,every single airline is looking for pilots.
Some airlines are buying aircrafts like we buy potatos,and
aviation expansion will not stop anytime soon.
ever going to run out, and when we ask for what we deserve,the
answer is always the same, the company is losing.
AS for supply and demand,I was recently in a meeting with my
CEO, and this is his exact words" For the next 5 years airlines
will be very lucky if they manage to keep their pilots"
Guys you only have to open the websites of most of the airlines
in the middle east,far east all the way to Japan ,every single airline is looking for pilots.
Some airlines are buying aircrafts like we buy potatos,and
aviation expansion will not stop anytime soon.
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I agree with Tarik 100%...and all those posts from white bear and the other loser who do not want us from asking more money are just jealous of our beautiful profession...
The fact that we do the greatest job on earth does not imply we should not act like highly skilled professionals who are assessed on their abilities and quality every 3 months on average (2 medicals plus 2 sim checks....on average). we deserve more money....let's all join our Unions and fight for what we find to be fair!!
tmr
The fact that we do the greatest job on earth does not imply we should not act like highly skilled professionals who are assessed on their abilities and quality every 3 months on average (2 medicals plus 2 sim checks....on average). we deserve more money....let's all join our Unions and fight for what we find to be fair!!
tmr
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Tarik is correct the pay and conditions as a professional pilot have dropped so much over the last twenty years that it is no longer a financially attractive profession.
BALPA has a lot to answer to and it is they who should now seriously push for major improvements. One big problem we have is with how pay increases are arrived at. Many airlines now use a comparison with similar airlines, so if xxx airline only offers a 2% pay rise that is what the rest of us receive. I am not a great one for cross comparisons in other industries but a GP ( who was once paid a similar if not lower amount to a pilot) is now earning around £100,000 according to a recent newspaper article whereas the average pilot salary is considerably less. As for pilots just entering the industry having to pay £60k for their initial training and then only receiving £15k salary is insane. The accountants have got wise to the fact that we actually enjoy flying and there are people who will do nearly anything to achieve that first job, not that I can blame them but this is partly to blame for the problems we are facing.
For those of you who think we are already over paid whingers, why? Should all employees be dragged down to the lowest common denominator. Maybe you should start a campaign so that every one throughout the world is paid the same amount as a paper boy. I for one want to improve my way of life to the maximum. Therefore I will continue to push for improvements in my industry, and I suggest you strive to improve your chosen employer to improve your conditions rather than trying to drag the rest of us down.
BALPA has a lot to answer to and it is they who should now seriously push for major improvements. One big problem we have is with how pay increases are arrived at. Many airlines now use a comparison with similar airlines, so if xxx airline only offers a 2% pay rise that is what the rest of us receive. I am not a great one for cross comparisons in other industries but a GP ( who was once paid a similar if not lower amount to a pilot) is now earning around £100,000 according to a recent newspaper article whereas the average pilot salary is considerably less. As for pilots just entering the industry having to pay £60k for their initial training and then only receiving £15k salary is insane. The accountants have got wise to the fact that we actually enjoy flying and there are people who will do nearly anything to achieve that first job, not that I can blame them but this is partly to blame for the problems we are facing.
For those of you who think we are already over paid whingers, why? Should all employees be dragged down to the lowest common denominator. Maybe you should start a campaign so that every one throughout the world is paid the same amount as a paper boy. I for one want to improve my way of life to the maximum. Therefore I will continue to push for improvements in my industry, and I suggest you strive to improve your chosen employer to improve your conditions rather than trying to drag the rest of us down.
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If you pay peanuts then you will get monkeys.... It applies in most fields except aviation..
Professional pride and love of flying is the reason why most of us fly. Money cannot be sooo important as a good professionally executed flight. The only problem is, many of the management have got the idea that pilots are the only suckers who will do their job for peanuts. They feel if we get a flight than they are doing us a favour by increasing our experience for free. It is a very careful balance when it is felt that a pilot is experienced enough and can be paid a huge salary. The management has pushed this view to a ridiculous extent and now it is generally viewed that if a person is a senior TRI or TRE he should be considered a "special person". Most of the damage is sadly done by some pilots in order to push their own importance at the cost of the profession as a whole.
Well the time has come that such thought processes need a tad bit of reviewing- to maintain the professional flight standards and not allow the management to interfere with the professional requirements. But some airlines which have gradually allowed operational control shift out of the hands of the pilots and into the hands of "businessman" and marketing are soon going to see things backfire. The writing is on the wall..
The paycuts which many airline pilots have experienced is a manifestation of the changes in the thinking in aviation circles.
Once again this a personal opinion...
Professional pride and love of flying is the reason why most of us fly. Money cannot be sooo important as a good professionally executed flight. The only problem is, many of the management have got the idea that pilots are the only suckers who will do their job for peanuts. They feel if we get a flight than they are doing us a favour by increasing our experience for free. It is a very careful balance when it is felt that a pilot is experienced enough and can be paid a huge salary. The management has pushed this view to a ridiculous extent and now it is generally viewed that if a person is a senior TRI or TRE he should be considered a "special person". Most of the damage is sadly done by some pilots in order to push their own importance at the cost of the profession as a whole.
Well the time has come that such thought processes need a tad bit of reviewing- to maintain the professional flight standards and not allow the management to interfere with the professional requirements. But some airlines which have gradually allowed operational control shift out of the hands of the pilots and into the hands of "businessman" and marketing are soon going to see things backfire. The writing is on the wall..
The paycuts which many airline pilots have experienced is a manifestation of the changes in the thinking in aviation circles.
Once again this a personal opinion...
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JagBAg , what are you trying to say?...what is your contribution sorry?
For those of us who really want to do something about this issue...so to increase OUR SALARIES, We must join strong Unions and work with them and with the Airlines to get better deals.
We Will Win....
but we must act....stop chatting about it and coming back home think: Are you doing anything to improve your situation?..what can you do? why haven't you joined your union yet?...
let's ACT guys!
For those of us who really want to do something about this issue...so to increase OUR SALARIES, We must join strong Unions and work with them and with the Airlines to get better deals.
We Will Win....
but we must act....stop chatting about it and coming back home think: Are you doing anything to improve your situation?..what can you do? why haven't you joined your union yet?...
let's ACT guys!
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TMR
What I am trying to say is that the negative mindset has to be reversed. All of us are members of unions IPA, BALPA etc. Personally this has made no difference in my needs, ambitions or professional furtherance.
The main reason is that a mindset has set in which is difficult to change because everyone is so focussed on getting more pay they have lost sight of "why" they should get more pay.... is it necessary to pay a pilot so much, when (as one of a management put it) ... he is just a driver!
If you need any further explanation then p.m. Also what is your contribution? This is not the only forum where people are harping on joining unions etc.. It is there in the Easy forum also .. so what have you said that is new?
What I am trying to say is that the negative mindset has to be reversed. All of us are members of unions IPA, BALPA etc. Personally this has made no difference in my needs, ambitions or professional furtherance.
The main reason is that a mindset has set in which is difficult to change because everyone is so focussed on getting more pay they have lost sight of "why" they should get more pay.... is it necessary to pay a pilot so much, when (as one of a management put it) ... he is just a driver!
If you need any further explanation then p.m. Also what is your contribution? This is not the only forum where people are harping on joining unions etc.. It is there in the Easy forum also .. so what have you said that is new?