Flybe Employee's Roll Over
 

Well you got the result you wanted now live with it and DON'T COMPLAIN.

The 5% pay rise has been accepted thanks to the Dash 8 fleet.

You lot are so short sighted it's untrue. I suppose that figures seeing as you have no ambition further than a turbo prop. I suppose your going to sign up for a 6 month notice period, give up your holidays and work 900 hours on a 5 on 5 off shift pattern for 70% of your wages. The word Dash 8 idiot comes to mind.

You lot are feeble excuse's for Pilot's and are destroying what was a good company. We are now back at 2001 levels and you voted for it.

I suggest the Jet fleet break away from the union and be represented independently. Enjoy your sarnies prop pilots.

Flying Fiona :

Not everyone has the chance to fly a 146 "whisperjet"...... So remenber you are supposed to work together not against each other.:suspect: .

You are working for the same company... Blame the management but not the prop pilots...

Fly high!:ok:

I have to agree with FF. In a rather short-sighted manner, some considered they were missing out having rejected April's original pay offer, and with a typical pilot 'look after numero uno' fashion, rolled over and accepted it. In defence of the DHC8 fleet, most of the guys are new and still have a rose-tinted outlook.

So FF you have access to Balpa voting system now do you??, how can you say the Dash guys voted in the pay deal ?, could it be they were the only ones in Balpa that could be bothered to reply?.

I doubt that they are short sighted but have to grasp everything they can to try and make their lives more "liveable".

Shame you cant be supportive rather than playing into management hands and dividing the pilot force !!!!!!, flying the 146 does not make you any more a superior pilot than Dash guys it just means that because of the traditional jet/prop deal you get a little more take home. The Dash seams to be a good tool for what it is doing for Flybe and a good tool for preparing all the Dash guys that are finding the switch to a real jet, with other companies, a easy one.

Rant over:p :p

What an absolutely pathetic post.
FF - after your post about pulling 4-5 sickies a month so that you can have a social life, I hardly think you are in any position to slag off people in the company. After all, with your actions, you are probably the biggest culprit of shafting your fellow colleagues in order to get what you want!

How do you know it was the Dash guys that voted yes??? Stop trying to turn this into a 'jet against dash' argument.

It's pretty obvious that the company are trying to screw the employees. Yes, it's a shame that some will roll over and let the company walk all over them, but unless you have specific figures as to who voted what, shut up.
Quite strange that of everyone I and fellow colleagues have spoken to, they all voted NO. How do you know, with such a small margin, that it wasn't 'fixed'?!?!?!

Stop being pathetic.

Enjoy your non-reducing bond when the 195 comes along.

The dash guys are responsible for the vote on the pay rise,wind your neck in you silly idiot!
I expect the people who voted NO,if that is anyone,where the ones that are leaving and just want thier money in their pay packet before they leave.
Dont divide unite................

If things are that good why you leaving? I'll tell you why, cuz the Dash fleet has screwed you over a barrell? They know they are the highest paid butty scoffing prop pilots in the country and 5% to them plus a bucket full of shares is Christmas all over again. As for Jet versus Dash, yes their is a division, all because every prop pilot is fed up of the jet pilots spitting on them from a great hight and leaving them in their wake. And don't say it's not true cuz it is. Ask any Pilot and they want to fly a jet. Simple. The problem has now has manifested itself and the jet guys are fed up and the resignations are begining to come in. Great news for the Dash 8 guys but the problem just continues into the next generation.

And yes I have been sick today because I will not work when I'm tired because I am responsible unlike most of you. Oh I forgot your on a rock in the middle of the sea and don't do bugger all to contribute to the companies excessive profits.

Ah. What a sensible reply! And do you really think 'naming and shaming' me actually makes me give a to**?!?!?!? Everyone knows who I am, and I'm not bothered, because unlike you, I'm quite happy to stand up and voice my opinions rather than hiding behind a fake name.

First of all, I'm leaving because I didn't want to go on the pig. I was actually next on the jet down here, and had I not resigned, I'd have been on it by now. I'm not leaving because the DASH fleet has screwed me, I'm leaving because I don't think I can get as far with my career as I want to in FlyBE, and I'd rather go somewhere where there are (hopefully) less roster changes, unscheduled night-stops, nights away from base, and yes, better money.

Butty scoffing??? Actually, we don't get bacon rolls. It's the jet fleet that is treated to cooked breakfasts. We get cold food that gives us food poisoning.
If you really want to get into a jet v Dash argument go ahead. I can't be bothered to waste my time.

As for calling in sick because you're tired - fair enough. If you are FATIGUED you shouldn't work. But judging from your attitude that has shown through in recent posts, you're probably not really fatigued but just feel like having a day off and screwing your colleagues.

As for being on an island and therefore not contributing to the companies excessive profits - well, I'm afraid to say that the routes from both here and Guernsey to LGW are two of the most profitable routes in the company. Our loads are continually high, and we all work long days like the rest of you.
Please don't lower yourself even further by trying to slag off the islands as well as the Dash fleet - for all of your colleagues who continue to work with you and read your posts, you are just lowering yourself and probably losing respect.

Oh, and as for jet pilots spitting on the Dash lot - must just be you that has such a disgusting habit - I've actually never had a problem with anyone in this company (bar one who was actually on the Dash).

FF can you disclose how you are so sure the Dash drivers voted in the pay deal as you quoted, or should we all assume you are just using this forum to divide the company, and disregard any meaningless propergander you may create.

Balpa works hard to promote anonomus voting, or do you know different ???

Sorry to butt in on this passionate little thread, but Skywaytoheaven (shades of Lord Flashart me thinks :) ), is 'hairdryer hog' a pseudonym for the mighty whisperjet jobby?

PS as an ex 300 driver always looked at the Q400s rather enviously - heard they were quite nippy

ER82- Well said.
I think that personaly attacking fellow employees on an open forum is about as low as you can get, I might of had differences of opinion with er82 but at least she/he has the balls to stand up and be counted and not make spineless faceless and hurtfull remarks such as in this thread.

Where's the love in pprune gone?????????

Flying Fiona - Why dont you do everyone in the company a favour and all your collegues a favour and go get a job in your local Tesco's which may suit your lifestyle more than working for a airline.
It's because certain people like you are so irressponsible that your collegues are having to work so hard and and are having work on days off and worrk long hour's.
Dont forget Fiona - that managment read these forum's and it wont take much for them to see who called in sick for your duty and track you down.
A lot of people on here have spent fast amount's of there own money ( I know because i'm one of them ) and not to have it paid for by daddy or by her majesty to get to where they are and don't give a damn if they are flying prop's or jet's for there first job - they are just happy to be doing what they enjoy most - TO FLY !!!
If you no longer enjoy flying then it's about time you found yourself a new career - one that more suit's your lifestyle and is less demanding on you.

FLYBE PAY ! confused.
 

HIGHEST PAID TP DRIVERS IN THE COUNTRY, WHERE DID THIS COME FROM I EARN 38-40k A YEAR FYING IN THE RHS OF A TP, OH AND I ONLY WORK TWO WEEKS A MONTH AND FOR THE OTHER TWO, WELL THE FAIRWAYS AND GREENS ARE BEAUTIFUL THIS TIME OF YEAR !! THERES MORE TO LIFE THAN FLYING !!

Whispering Giant

You will find, when the novelty of being a pilot in your first real job starts to wear off, what most experienced pilots know - that it isn't about the flying, it's about lifestyle.

If you are one of those pilots who is perfectly happy to forsake wife, kids, friends and family in order to fly, you will end up a (maybe) happy, but lonely, old pilot. If, on the other hand, you wake up one day and wonder what hotel you are in, and suddenly realise that you would quite like a life outside of a turboprop flight deck, you too will start to think like Flying Fiona.

I don't have a lot of time for pulling "sickies", but I do know from first-hand experience how Crewing can impose a work pattern that is almost criminally tiring. Noisy hotels, disturbed sleep patterns, endless positioning, all take their toll, but nobody could give a toss about that. "It's LEGAL! Are you refusing a duty"? I have been threatened, both by them and management, in order to get me to fly when I was really way too tired. None of them seem to understand that the preface to CAP370 states that it is expected that no pilot will ever be required to work to the limits defined in that document, but airlines regularly take the p*ss when it comes to the rules. How many of you have been told "it's legal, get on with it"?

I love flying, but I hate what the job does to my family and my health. I hate needing a day of my days off just to recover from the last few days flying - never mind actually getting some quality time with the family.

It appears that the company has accomplished a classic "divide and rule" in this case. I completely agree that this is a result of the turboprop pilots caving - there is no other sensible explanation. The jet guys have nothing to gain, and something to lose. Think about it.

FF, one would suggest that it is you that has no ambition. Making other collegues feel inadequate is the work of a common bully!

Why are you so critical of people that fly the Dash 8? I am not sure if you are aware, but it happens to be the majority fleet in the company, so therefore it is difficult for people to get onto it. Also a lot of current dash drivers have turned down the luxury of a 'Hot Meal' and a 10k payrise because they do not want to fly 'old technology'. You may be able to put jet hours on your CV, you can't put full EFIS experience!





:mad:

This is just petty. FF get over it. You've got the reaction you were aiming for. Would you care to try a more persuasive way of putting your argument across? Just be assured that it's not only the jet jocks who are annoyed at the pay deal being accepted. :mad: Not all of us on the other fleet (you know, the majority!) voted yes!

I think that the negotiations should have contained something about a regular work pattern so that you can plan more than 4 weeks in advance as opposed to the lottery we have now. Maybe they did. I don't know.

That's my 2 penneth worth.

Just joined the company on the Dash and actually do not understand any of the posts on this board. Why is a payrise a bad thing? Why is there so much apparent bad feeling between the jet and prop pilots?

I for one never wanted to go straight to a jet, but would not turn one of the new 195's if offered as it is full EFIS.

Anyone shed any light ?

No payrise for 4 (?) yrs. Worst duty pay in the business. Zero roster stability. Scheduling agreement more holes than Swiss cheese. Back door deals disregarding seniority list etc etc.

Prickie
A pay rise isn't a bad thing - but in the current state of the company, the pilots should really have had the company bending over backwards and coming up with a deal that benefits US not them.
Flying Fiona seems to have some insider knowledge and claims that it was only Dash crew that voted yes. As the margin was so small, it could be debated whether it was 'fixed' - every crew member that I and others have spoken to voted NO!
The apparent bad feeling between jet and prop - maybe I've just been lucky in my base, but I've never really seen any of this bad feeling. Unfortunately there are some, FF, who like to stir things up and create arguments.

VTOL has hit the nail on the head. It shouldn't have just been about getting a pay-rise. Most people have left because of the ridiculous roster disruptions and inability to plan any sort of life - not even three days in advance let alone 3 weeks.
With lack of crews (where have I seen that before?!?!) the pilot workforce were in the position to be able to ask for pretty much anything. A fair whack for roster changes and unscheduled night-stops would help ease the pain, and with any luck stop crewing/ops changing people so much. Instead, the company want to take 8 days leave off us and give us nothing back, and crews go "Oh thanks"!!!
(Not having a go at crewing/ops - they probably have the toughest job being stuck in the middle of us whiners and the even whinier management!)

Well from memory, flight crew work 266 days per year, the balance being 81 days off and 18 days in lieu of statutory holidays.

If you guys have actually given up 8 days off, you have surrendered 10% of your days off for a 5% pay rise.

Looking at it another way, by getting those extra 8 days work out of you, the company has leveraged a 3% increase in productivity out of you, in return for that 5% pay rise.

Of course I may be missing something, being out of the picture now... but you guys appear to have been thoroughly worked over!

Somebody enlighten me! :confused:

Reading this post I can only say that I am glad more than ever that I left FlyBe when I did. The 5% was rejected initially and I felt that there was a real chance that the lifestyle issues could then be redressed since the pilots had the 'company over a barrell' with so many pilots leaving. How another ballot has now passed the 5% rise is beyond me. I think that it can only be the influx of new crew that just see the money aspect and haven't been in long enough to experience the severe disruption and frankly poor life style that flybe offers. I can only see it getting worse in the future with the rapidly expanding fleet and shrinking experience. Everyone that I have spoken to recently who still work at flybe have expressed that things have continued to get worse there. As for flying fiona I can't believe your piss poor attitude, it is disgusting that you lump all of the blame on dash 8 crews, having been on both fleets during my time at flybe both had its good and bad points but seperating the pilot workforce along this was will only benefit the company. Very petty, childish and rude comments from quite frankly a bully, well done fiona.

AH, I think you are right. There are a lot of new people to the company who are in BALPA who are keen to fly as much as they can (as we all were when we had low hours!) and are concerned with the money rather than how the working day disrupts their lifestyle.

From speaking to experienced crews, they all voted NO for the ballot (and I am talking about butty eating dash drivers here FF!).

As for the fleet devide......it is only apparent when someone wants to make themselves seem to be better than others!!!!

The fact that substantially more than half the pilots are not in BALPA and they haven't been asked or even kept informed about the pay negotiations speaks volumes about the company's appalling communications and general people management skills.

Whatever the internal gripes at Flybe and despite the current shortage of very experienced pilots for this sector of the industry, there are, and always will be, many slightly less experienced pilots who are prepared to leave other operators (such as Eastern) to join the Flybe turbo fleet and bide their time until a jet postion becomes available.

I'm not a pilot nor do I work for Flybe, but I've been in the aviation industry for a very long time, and I know that this situation will prevail ad infunitum.

Flying Fiona is either very brave or very silly, with such outspoken attitudes, it's relatively easy for management to find out who you really are, and although they won't worry too much about your opinion they will bear it mind when an opportunity for promotion comes along - unless you've already left to become chief piot at B.A.
:E

worried
 

I am not a pilot, nor work in the aviation industry. I am a lawyer, who as an aviation enthusiast has read these forums for a long time, purely out of interest.

Seriously you guys.............................. come on! I realise there are serious issues being discussed here and many of the issues revolve around careers, salaries and lifestyle, which ultimately, is why we all get out of bed everyday. I do not seek to trivialise the argument.

In some of these threads, especially ones as vociferous as this, if you stepped back and took a long look at the way in which others may perceive what is being debated, and more importantly, the manner in which it is being debated, than you may realise that some of you are not doing yourselves any justice at all. I would go as far as to say that some of you really let yourselves down on a personal and professional basis. Its all a bit worrying really. I hope you don't squabble like this on the flightdeck.

I know the grass is always greener ect ect, but i would have given anything not to have appaling eyesight and to have been able to fly professionally.

Some of these threads actually make lawyers look like outstanding, upright and thoroughly decent people!

I wait to be shot down by a barrage of obnoxious replies telling me to mind my own business.

daveandferdy, respectively,
That is the crux of the matter, too many new people in this industry 'just want to fly', just think about it for goodness sake and take off your rose tinted glasses.



"Justice"...? coming from a lawyer, tell me that is a joke... right...? :uhoh:

daveandferdy

For a lawyer, you make a lot of assumptions.

Leaving aside for a minute the fact that being a pilot these days is more and more a blue-collar job, our "profession" has been continually undermined, in terms of pay and conditions, since the 80's.

One of the more obvious characteristics of this process of change, has been the way in which crews are treated by their management. In days gone by, pilots were accorded a high level of respect and renumeration. This was partly in recognition of the skill of the pilot, partly in recognition of the enormous responsibility placed upon his or her shoulders, and partly in recognition of the fact that the company could well fail if one pilot was careless for a few seconds.

These days, companies have learned to live with the risk of a disgruntled workforce, balancing the survival instincts of their pilots against the possible consequences of a lapse of concentration.

All the current thinking on good employment practice stresses that a happy, motivated workforce will do wonders for a companies' profits. However, airlines ignore this, by and large, as they are unable to treat their employees well without risking the all-important bottom line. Such is the world we now live in.

My point? It is easy to sit there in your lawyers office and pass judgement on issues you have no understanding of. Does your career hang on a six-monthly medical, or a six-monthly proficiency check? Do you go to work in the morning, expecting to be home with your family that night - but find that you don't actually get home for several days due to some crewing emergency (brought on by having insufficient crews in the first place)? Does your career potentially hang on NOT making some small mistake that has serious consequences? Do you find yourself so tired that you know you aren't functioning properly, but also knowing that trying to step down until you are properly rested will likely result in disciplinary action?

No, I didn't think so. Welcome to our world.

You, too, do yourself no favours by wading in with such facile observations. Do you think we want to complain about this stuff? We do not. We just want to get on with our jobs, but find that the increasing pressure on our time, health and bank balances leaves us with no option but to raise our voices.

I love flying, but I would kill for a nice, predictable, stable, well-paid and family-friendly job as a lawyer.

I find you post to be, frankly, very offensive.

Think about it.

Plus ca change. I left the aviation industry after 28 years of professional flying because my (various company) terms and conditions had steadily eroded virtually from day one. No the job isn't what it once was....but that's true of many jobs today. When I flew for a living I also used to bang on about how my liveliehood was dependant on six monthly medicals and proficiency checks and how hard doneby I (we) all were and how no other profession was subject to such stringent working conditions. Well, I've since found out that's not entirely true. Used to be we all retired earlier than the general population and so got paid a bit more to compensate for the loss of 5 or 10 years salary. That tends not to be so true now and in any case medical science has moved on quite a lot, so (and I'll whisper this) in most cases it's actually quite difficult to lose your medical. Six monthly proficiency checks are part of the job, accept it or leave.
From a new perspective I now realise that, frankly, I was a bit of a prima donna ~ mind you I wasn't alone, most of my colleagues were as well, in some shape or form. We all felt that 'the airline' just would'nt exist without us...actually an airline is an organisation made up of many components, and if any one doesn't function properly then the whole comes to a grinding halt. We also felt that the 'company' owed us a living...it never did and it never will, I'm afraid.
I peruse PPrune from time to time, mainly to remind myself why I got out of flying if I'm ever tempted by nostalgic thoughts, particularly if business is a bit slow. I'm not amazed to find the same, blinkered opinions that I used to hold so dear and consequently always come away feeling that I made the right decision at the right time, for me.
For those who still enjoy it all, well enjoy it. Be aware that the job will involve being 'shafted' by management/crewing et al, be aware that the job does involve having an unsettled social life/long duty days/night stops. If you like it, fine, if you don't then be aware that the job has always been the same and you're not going to change it, not by reasoned argument, wingeing or 'taking sickies'. Pilots always have and always will 'look after numero uno'. I'm not sure why that's particularly true of aviation ~the folks who are on a good deal seem to muster a collective will to do something to further improve their lot whilst those at the bottom of the pile seem unable to act collectively. Perhaps it's got something to do with the fact that our training always emphasised the 'responsibility thing', anyway, whatever.
As for 'Flying Fiona', well~personally I wouldn't let on in public that I took sickies~apart from the fact that,yes, management might find out and I suspect that they would find grounds to terminate your career~but if I had ever worked with somebody who (apparently) took regular sick days which most likely had a negative effect on what was already a sporadic and chaotic social life I think I would have become an 'equal-opportunity smack in the teether'.

Ham Phisted,
You took the words right out of my mouth.

RD,
Nobody has given 8 days up just yet. There has been a poll sent out that is all. Not by BALPA though but a company one, which no doubt will never reflect the true opinion anyway.
However, of the 2 options given neither were acceptable, we need a 3rd option.

If the company has decided that the taking 3 days off of us
( without our consent or even put to a ballot I might add) was such a resounding success, why do they need to take a further 5 from us?

The options were :-

1. To accept the new proposal of giving up 8 days DOIL to allow for a 3 day block every month and a further 3 day block if you work 6 consecutive days.
In addition, if you accept, then next year you will get an extra 2 days leave as a sweetner.

2. Go back to the old system.


There was no option to keep the system that they had already imposed on us by taking the 3 days from us in the first place.
On paper this "3rd option" would seem to work.
Although they have said that the practice of rostering a single day off would stop, it clearly has not, as many of my colleagues will testify and of course myself included.
I am also still being rostered 6 then 2.

What we need is a 5 and 3 or ideally a 4 and 4 like, Op's, Crewing and Engineering but that is unlikely to happen.

The question you all have to ask yourselves is :-
If it is such a good system then why would we have to be bribed into excepting an initial extra 2 days leave to give up 8 Doils?
The only winners will be the company and not the Pilots that's for sure.

Anyone excepting this deal deserves all they get.

Newbies Beware, don't get suckered in like you did the paydeal.

Smokie!
Amazing, after all these months and years of sniping you've actually made a point with which I agree 100%.

Fair enough to relinquish control of (not "give up') 3 days in a Summer Season to enable a slightly less knackering lifestyle - but why a further 5 days in a shorter and less intense Season to achieve - nothing.! The bizarre thing is that apparently the workforce has voted in favour of the latter by approx. 2:1 - my sources tell me at this stage, I stand to be corrected.

twinboom,

Perhaps the penny has finally dropped?

So far this is only a company poll and not a BALPA Vote.
So even if the company try to enforce this, unless it goes to a Union vote then there are major T's & C's Issues to address.

You lot can vote yes and give up your holidays but that won't effect my holiday entitlement. Nor will it effect me if you get a positive vote through BALPA.

I signed a contract when I started at Flybe stating my conditions and that cannot change just because you lot vote for in favour of giving up your leave.

I tore up the ballot slip and wrote to the management saying why I would not take part in the vote.

Those that wish to give up their leave can do so but my entitlement will stay exactly as it is. As for the 3 days they took from you during the summer, I still have mine. I urge all of you that have allowed them to take them from you to get them back.

Hudson , I am Intrigued!
Prey tell and enlighten us all.

I'll think you'll find that somewhere in that contract, it will indicate that T&C's can be altered as long as you are given the appropriate notice. Or maybe you were lucky and they left that bit off yours. Not sure where you would stand legally as the company may well be within its rights to alter your T&C's. The only defence against that is a strong union or CC... ha ha ha ha ha ha....... :rolleyes:

You are correct MOR. The company can change your terms and conditions but the changes have to be within reason.

For example they can change the amount of shirts they supply you with each year because the effect on employees is minimal. If you remember the company did reduce the amount they provided you with a few years ago from six to four. They can do this because four shirts per year is a reasonable amount.

They cannot take away your entitlement of shirts away completely as the supply of uniform is written into your contract.

Taking away leave or reducing salary or altering pension benifits etc. is a different kettle of fish. They cannot make major changes without your agreement. If they do they are in breach of employment law.

The company knows this and that is why my three days were returned to me as soon as I put pen to paper. Those of you that have voted yes to giving up your leave have now signed an agreement with the company which is personal to them. It has nothing to do with a vote.

The company is not stupid. They will have took advice from their lawyers before attempting to make major changes to your employment contract.

Reducing ones salary is always a good one.
A few colleagues of mine have had difficulties in this area in the past.

Contract? What Contract?






Plagerising I know.! But Who Cares?

Oh I don't know, it wasn't so very long ago that they forgot to make sure a whole bunch of pilots signed their bonds.

I could have taken advantage of them many times if I was so inclined, so poor was the administration in some areas.

Leave
 

Am I missing something, you may have 3 days taken off the summer leave but instead you get extra days off each month you're not on leave thus cancelling that out don't you?

Am I wrong by saying that you don't actually lose any days off for the year but the ratio of DO's to LDO's/ALV has changed?

:confused:

Apparently it's been given the go-ahead. You'll lose control of 8 leave days a year. Which could actually equate to 12 days if you took one block of 5 (with the 4 wrap-around days) and another block of 3.

Trislander you are correct but so is er82. The problem is with the scheme is the company will roster more single days off during the winter. Before, you could request 3 block days per month even if you had leave booked in that month. Bottom line is most employees have given up a 9 day block and a 5 day block which they have control over. 7 years ago when there was a high attrition rate the company gave us extra leave (1 day per each year worked) to stop the resignation rate. Now they are taking it back! It is the worst thing the company has ever done and it will only contribute to the already high resignation rate resulting in more disruption.