Hudson, as you note above, surely if the company will give people back control of their leave days if they complain about it then this issue is a none starter. All everyone has to do is complain! Am I correct? Also, you say:
By this do you mean that some employees have not given up this right?

I haven't given up my leave and I never will. It took a couple of letters, but the management caved in when I threatened legal action. I have to accept my roster as it comes but I have also retained the right to book 4RDO's per month which can include 3 consecutive days per month. I know of only one other person that has kept his leave. It makes my mind boggle that crews have been so keen to give up leave.

It looks like things will never change at Flybe. Finally, when the pilots have the company againt the wall, what do they do? Turn down the vaseline.

It is extremelly hard to believe that not having enough pilots in the company the CC has, once again, proposed an appalling deal for the pilots to vote. Even worse than that, the pilots have actually agreed to it. :sad:

You complain every day about how bad thins are yet, you do nothing about it. I am sorry but I am sick of your moaning.

When thay slap you, you say harder. When thay slap you harder you say do it again. When will you finally learn that you could make the company do what you want. Get a stable roaster should not be that difficult. Even a miserable 6/3 is better than what you have now. Where in order to get your third day off in a row you have to use a leave day.

Guys put some pressure on the company. Stand up to the CC and tell to do their bloody job right. Instead of putty forward miserable deals that only benefit the company.

Best of luck!:ok:

The problem is ugly duck that alot of the Pilot work force are at the beginning of their careers and sign anything the company puts in front of them that sounds good. Now lets be honest anybody can make something sound good.

When you look at this latest scheme in detail it is very obvious what the company's problem is. Some of the troops are working just as hard as the likes of Easy and Ryanair and the company have to give extra days off otherwise the Pilots hours would be hitting their limits every week. The company have been forced to come up with a stable roster pattern like the other low cost carriers because the present system is not working due to crew hours.

Why do you think Flybe want more pilots to go part time? 5 on 5 off is a con with no limit on hours. Will those guys get 3 days off in a row? I don't think so. They just loose leave days and work the same hours. This is the biggest stitch up I have ever seen and you guys fell for it. The ops director is a very clever man.

So is it true that we are still losing 146 pilots, and that the ex-retired contract guys are getting ticked off and leaving? Anyone know?

Hey thats ironic isn't it?

The day after you stupid, stupid people gave up your leave the company issues a Notac stating that calculation on the limits of duty hours is now done on a rolling week. My advice to you all is to do what I did and write to your Ops Director immediately stating you will NOT accept these changes to your contract,

There is a new EU Working Time Directive, of which we must find out more.
It covers, as in our case, Shift Workers and prevents the sort of Rostering we have seen in the past. The finish on Lates and Starting on earlies malarky.

eg. when given say 2 days off they must be a clear 48 hours plus the remainder of the last day worked. This does not include late finishes of 2130hrs plus, and not start before a certain time; if you do start back on earlies again; 0600 hr starts are too early in this time period.

Also you MUST have at least 1 x 3 day block per month.

MW is very aware of this and is trying his best to sucker you all in to giving up your 8 days. If we all stand together then when the new directive becomes Law and I believe that this is not too far away( this year), then we will have to have the 3 day blocks a month allocated to us anyway.

Stand Firm, drag it out as long as you can, complain bitterly, because if you don't, then you will certainly lose your 8 days come the end of the year.

Why else is MW bribeing you with 2 days extra for the next years leave period?

This really must be an issue for the CC's to urgently sort out/drag out, as the longer it goes on the better off we should be.

OK, Further to the above post, the EU Working Time Directive has been inforce for a while now, since early on this year.

MW is trying to pull a fast one, no doubt about it.
What we have to do is now write to the Flight Operations Director telling him that we are not happy about his proposal, as this is a MAJOR change to our T's & C's. He can not force you to accept this change unless you have given him your written consent.

Unfortunately those who have ticked the box in favour of the change in his
" Company Poll" will then have deemed to have accepted his proposal in writing.

Those who have ticked the other box have at least a chance of recovering from this debacle and having your leave as you require it.

Those who did not bother to vote either way, now have the chance of also having YOUR LEAVE, UNDER YOUR CONTROL and not theirs.

It is YOUR CHOICE. Write that letter.:ok:

I agree Smokie. Those that have agreed to give back their leave will find it difficult to get it back. Those that did not sign will be ok. I have had a letter back confirming that my leave will remain the same but I fear the worst for you guys that ticked the yes box. It appears that all the reps from open channel are pro this crazy scheme so no help there. My advice would be to kick and scream for a long time.

Hudson,

I'd be interested to here who you wrote to in order to get your response?

I've written to MW early last week and am yet to receive a response.

The CAA working time Directive that was adopted from the EU Working Time Directive and came into force last April 2004.
Basically says that, The Max Flight Time Hours remain the same at, 900 a year ( Rolling)
And Max Duty Hours are 2000 a year ( Rolling)
This new 2000 hour limit equates to about 39 hour a week or about 154 hours a month, total duty and not just Flight Time duty.

There are Severe Penalties for those enforcing employees to work more than this, including Prison Sentencing!

Vicarious Libility anyone?

It is very difficult to see how the Airlines, especially FlyBe, are going to do this without massive recruitment.
It would seem that the powers that be are very aware of this, which is why they are trying to Con us into giving up our 8 days off in Lieu; that way they can redistribute our days off to make it all legal and without having to give us the days anyway, which is what they would have to do if no one accepted the the terms of the recent Poll that was sent out.

You would do well to bear in mind that although it only appears to be 8 days you are giving up, it is actually 12.
From the 8 doils you would normally take a block of 5, which would attract an extra 2 wraparound days either side of the 5 day block. 12 days is nearly 2 weeks. Do you really want to give up those 12 days?

I Don't :{

What is everyones problem, if you don't like it leave.

Don Darby has hundreds of CV's on his desk.

He may get many CVs, but he obviously doesn't read them very well, as he found out to his extreme embarrasment recently....:E

Ahh go on Niknak, I could do with a laugh, what did he do then

Don may have hundreds of CVs on his desk, but they are all from pimply-faced youths with no experience... well OK there might be a few oldies with no experience in there somewhere as well...:p :p

Something to do with inviting the wrong people to the wrong interview board for the wrong job, even though the candidates CV was clearly laid out in front of them....:p

Not a nice experience for the candidate, but ......

Not surprisingly, a lot of negativity on this board about Flybe. Never read anything positive... For those who have the qualifications and hours, why don't you just leave for Easy, FR, or an IT charter if you can? Why stick around and sulk all of the time? Not trying to get flamed, just wondering why people put up with such abuse and negativity for so long - it ain't healthy...

Sure, the other outfits have their own problems (especially scheduling at Easy), but at least the jet vs. Dash problems would be solved. Never understood why people would be so envious of 146 pilots - that bucket of bolts couldn't be more archaic... Just my opinion.

Re. the hundreds of CVs -


There may be hundreds of CVs on the desk but how many will actually be any use to them when they go looking for more crew.

I know of several people who have been in touch and are either waiting ages for an interview or more importantly a sim check.

In the mean time most of them have interviews, sim rides and even firm job offers with other companies (given the market situation at the moment), which means when Flybe finally get in gear to hire more crew they may well get a shock at how many of their applicants have already been snapped up. These are mostly guys with experience too!!!

Allegedly, some of those who sought to move on, had the FlyBE Boot put in at the last minute. Some survived. Some didn't.:confused:

My Guess is that most didn't. Spiteful or What!

What’s wrong with the ops director calling up all the major employers to stop them taking all his experienced staff. Could it be to save his skin perhaps? Rumour had it, JF warned the ops dir, if ten more people leave then their will be eleven going.

I heard the other employers just laughed when called up. Should someone be able to prove the above mentioned phone calls then I would not like to be in the ops directors shoes.

Should M.W go or stay? That is the question. I say he goes.

Agent Provocateur! :)

He must be going shortly anyway - doesn't he retire soon?

FWIW - and I realise many won't agree - I think he has done a good job over the years. You have to remember that the things for which he is unpopular, are generally policies that are devised by others and that he is required to implement. In all my dealings with him, I have found him to be fair, helpful and prepared to go the extra mile for his crews. He has certainly gone out on a limb for me on a couple of occasions.

Many hate the guy, but few understand the pressures he works under. We could certainly have done an awful lot worse.

I now await the torrent of abuse... ;)

I thought he did offer his resignation, but because it's his name on the AOC (or something) they couldn't let him go......

Have to say from all the stories I've heard, I think FlyBE would do much better without him. Having an Ops director that many don't like, or don't hold in the highest regard, who implements changes that continually seem to be shafting the crews who make the airline work, can't be doing much to help.

Have heard as well about the call to other airlines. Not surprising really. Didn't he get a call from Monarch last year saying they'd had X number of applications from FlyBe staff, and they were just letting him know that should all pass the relevant tests, they'd be taking all of them!
It's fast approcahing that time of year again when recruitment will open up again. Any bets on how many resignations FlyBE receive this year?!?!

No, sorry, that's nonsense. Jims name is on the AOC as he is the Chief Operating Officer or whatever they call it - the buck stops with him.

MW is a Director (of which there are several).

The stories about the calls to ther airlines have been around for years, and not just about flybe. Most airlines are smart enough to make their own minds up.

Anyway... each can make their own mind up!

I'm sure there will be a pile of resignations later this year.

MOR are you looking for MW's job? What a load of bull!!!!.
Mr. Faulty would have done a far better job. The only things he is really good at is lying to the board.
Everybody knows that being in the side of management requieres taking decisions that do not please everybody. However, MW's way of doing his job was always done in the poorest manner.
I truly believe that when he is gone things will definetely improve at Flybe (unless they do not put another like him).
By the way, ask around (Air UK pilots, for instance) about MW and see what they have to say. I have not yet, heard anything good about the man.:sad:

Re MW

Ive posted some pretty negative things on here about flybe ,i have to say that in any dealings i had with him he was a decent and fair guy , straight with me anyways . He came to my help when the a*******e that used to be Jet Fleet Manager tried to ruin me , M.W put a stop to that .

In general i found that if you were following the books and the law you could expect him to back you up , not neccesarily the case if you werent .


Before Smokie et all jump on my head , i am not saying he is giving you guys a good deal right now , if you lot accept what comes your way , hardly his fault is it .


NF

Same here. He was very decent over a couple of base changes, never lied to me, and was helpful when that moron of a jet FM tried it on with me as well. On several occasions he went out of his way to make my life easier, although there were decisions he made that gave me problems. However, those decisions were commercially correct.

Most people tend to believe the negative stories and rumours, without actually being in posession of any facts. I was in Air UK at the same time as MW, and I never heard anything negative about him there.

It is also ridiculous to say that he lied to the board. If that were true, he would have been out the door the moment the lie was discovered. Of course if you have examples...

I wouldn't want his job, as it is largely a thankless one.

But feel free to believe whatever you want...

Yes, but think of the Golden Handshake he'll get when he eventually does go.:yuk: