Bacx Ba & Balpa
 

It appears that Balpa are looking after their BA colleagues at BACX but not BACX pilots..conflict of iterests???

I think BALPA looks after all its members. Maybe it's the employer?

Yawn yawn. This has been done to death and I'm sure everyone in both outfits would be pleased not to have yet another unproductive slanging match here.

Hand,

this was obviously not started by Capt P. to generate another BA/BACX slanging match so leave the 'debate' to those that are actually affected by the recent announcements. You are in a pretty enviable position so...:hmm:

As for those of us who are actually REALLY affected by BA (mis)managements recent attempt at the regional flying game...

...I am quite surprised at the company-wide feeling of misrepresentation (or lack of adequate representation) by BALPA. Yes, our CC are working their butts off for free, but when BACC are seen to be actively making deals to help one element of the workforce, against the interests of another BALPA PAYING part of the company... who knows where it may lead?

Separate company councils representing crew working for the same 'parent company' is undoubtedly counter-productive. Lets face it... it is known as a UNION for what reason? (Check a dictionary please).

Hand... you really ought to actually speak to some of your seconded colleagues up here in Manchester. They are no longer spouting the usual cr@p about 'them and us' cos nowadays it's 'us and us'. This really is a time when 2 company councils united will stand a chance. While the current 'divide and rule' concept is allowed to flourish, there will NEVER be any safe base or posting (BHX included).

Get those rose tinted Ray Bans off before it's too late.

RM

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ.................

Both employers want the secondees back in London..BACX want to secure jobs for its pilots, BA are desperately short of pilots at LHR However it is BALPA that tries to secure slots on RJ for secondees! At the expense of BACX pilots.. :ugh:
We all feel for individuals from both companies being affected by the BP05. We don't agree a one way traffic is a solution..Nor operating a mixed fleet with two groups on very different T'&C's. A compromise should accommodate both pilot groups. Balpa have the power and means to help sort this. As I mentioned above both managements want the same solution..
It doesn't appear that Balpa is going to change its attitude regarding lost BACX jobs and Commands..So come on New Road. Show you will help BACX in future and get some bodies back/down to LHR. Leave those who's lives are in the regions to get on with it! How about getting BACX seniority no. within BA so pilots can bid to go to LHR if they so wish?? ;)

cap.pulitov

I strongly suspect that when the final picture becomes clear, you will find that the BACC has been pragmatic, accomodating, and sensitive to the interests of those in BACX.

You spoke of a compromise to accomodate both pilot groups. I believe that is EXACTLY what has happened.

No doubt, you will wish to express your thanks to the BACC, when the time comes.

I confidently predict a number of secondees will choose to return to LHR rather than relocate to EDI, IOM, or INV and that there will be NO compulsory redundancies in the BACX pilot workforce. (Though with the high turnover of pilots, that was never likely - we may revisit this when BACX next recruit, if indeed they have ever ceased!)

On a more general note: You mention that;

"both managements want the same solution.."

Are you suggesting that 'management solutions' are always desirable?

I presume like me, you would like YOUR union to ensure YOUR agreements are safeguarded?

We can agree, can't we.

Tandem
What about you? Staying or going?:uhoh:

Hi bf

Thanks for asking. As I said, the compromise is that some of us will be leaving, and some of us will be staying.

What about you? As you are Scottish based, are you hoping for an RJ seat? You MAY find secondees aren't all bad!!

I strongly agree with your views on the war in Iraq by the way!

Tandem
Hope to stay up north but on the 145 preferably. Last thing i'd want is to go 'darn souff'!
May have to tho' if the good jobs up here all get taken.

Thanks for your comment re Iraq. Nice to know someone noticed.

Hello Tandem,
We didn't expect all secondees to go to EDI,INV,IOM as commuting to LHR is prefferable..But a bunch of our long serving Captains are about to be demoted and displaced with little options of commuting..Did the BACC think about these pilots?
If they did and have a proper compromise I will send each and every one of the BACC a letter of thanks with some flowers:)

I don't believe an arrangement to see some secondees going to LHR is an acceptable compromise to BACX Pilots..sorry!!

And as I said if BA allow some of the displaced pilots in BACX to bid to LHR to try and continue with their 'normal' lives i.e commute from their place of residence, that will be a compromise;)

Do you really want to know how much our relocation package is worth? or V.Redundancy? (Or Pay??) It is shameful. Add to this loss of Command pay, staff travel and loss of licence to demoted Captains and you will realize why BACX pilots are so pissed off!:}

cap.pulitov

You "don't believe an arrangement to see some secondees going to LHR is an acceptable compromise to BACX Pilots."

Assuming BA wish to continue with their current policy of SELECTING the BACX pilots they wish to employ;

(A policy not in the control of the BACC, BACXCC, or BACX)

what WOULD be an "acceptable compromise"?

I would suggest that an acceptable compromise would be simple equality of opportunity.
Like Captain Pulitov, I will send each and every member of BACC a handwritten letter of thanks if they could even produce evidence that they had suggested equality of opportunity (ie ability to bid for LHR jobs like some of their colleagues) to the BA management they negotiate with. In BACX we realise fully that BACC or BACXCC will not achieve all their aspirations. However, it would be quite refreshing to feel that BACC had made the effort, even if it failed.

I will go further, I will admit :E that every post of mine disagreeing with Tandem was inaccurate :{ , and that he knew and knows more about BACX than I ever could. All he needs to do is support the idea of equality of opportunity for pilots within the same Company. I do not mean opportunity for BACX pilots ahead of secondees, just the same opportunity according to rank and seniority. If he can't (or won't) do that, I'm sure judgements will be made accordingly.
I hesitated to post here, because of the tirade that reasoned argument usually attracts from the secondee readers. Hopefully however this time there will not be more of the usual nauseating Blairite smirking, insincerity and duplicitous language one becomes accustomed to from TR and his friends.
Inshallah.

The question is why do BA wish to continue and select BACX pilots ,some who have already been trained by BA as Captains flying BA AOC A/C..Some politics!
Equal opportunities for MAN pilots should see the RJ situation as base closure for BACX pilots and they should be able to bid to LHR. This a fair compromise. I do appreciate the BACC not allowing BHX RJ secondees to bid outside BHX on RJ but this doesn,t help with long term solution . Anyway more meetings with Balpa are taking place over the coming week- Hopefully BACX workforce can unite behind our CC and look after its pilots! Just like pilots in BA!

After the fairly recent situation where BA took CityFlyer pilots onto the bottom of the seniority list i can't see BA taking on another pilot that hasn't gone throught the full selecion procedure. most of the CityFlyer pilots were excellent, however the failure/chop rate was considerably higher that with pilots that come through selection.
I know the aptitude tests / interview / etc..do seem quite unlinked to flying jets but it seems they do seem to work.

If the gates open at all, it should be for all BACX pilots who want to go down to LHR and LGW not just those from the displaced bases/fleets.

I usually steer well clear of these BA v BACX debates but surely all that is needed here is a little common sense by all parties. No one in BA management BACX management the BACC or BACXCC wants to see anyone disadvantaged, I'm sure. However, there are facts of life to be faced. The decision to move the RJs to EDI must have had the blessing of the BA board therefore it is BA as a whole who must find a solution. The grounding of the 146s is a slightly different arguement. I was once told never get caught using common sense but I have decided to give it a go !

The BA secondees at Manchester are there, largely, because that is where they want to live. They don't want to commute to LHR and by the same definition I would suspect they also do not want to commute to EDI. However, would there be any reason they couldn't bid onto the BA 767 fleet with the proviso that under bidline they had priority for the MAN-JFK. (A bit of lateral thinking by BA mainline reqiured - is that beyond them ?). They would probably be away less than they are now. There is no need for any extra expense to BA or BACX other than their 767 courses. In fact it would surely save money in hotels and taxis.

An uncomfortable fact of life is that there are now not enough seats in BACX for all the people who want to occupy them. I appreciate the deal the secondees have and in their position I would not be prepared to give it up either. So why make them give it up. In return for their continued life in the regions why can't the BA and BACX CC get their heads together and get the combined managements to accept a deal where BA Mainline undertake to employ a number of BACX pilots equal to or greater than the number of BACX seats occupied by secondees. If that has to be via some kind of selection then so be it. However, this must leave as few people disadvantged as possible and I appreciate this isn't going to solve everyone's personal problems.

I am fortunate not to be personally affected this time, although with all the other F/Os in the company the prospect of career progression is likely to have to now be elsewhere. However, having been relocated in the past I know how it feels and wish all you guys in MAN the best.

Finally, we all need to accept that in life we all want to look after number 1. Being abusive to each other on here about who's number 1 has the most rights or ability doesn't get us anywhere. Might make you feel better for five minutes that's all. If BALPA BA and BACX don't start working together all our number 1s are going to lose out in the end not matter where you came from or what deal you have now.

I will now find a sofa to hide behind in expectation of the repsonses !

Good idea CV. Why however, if there are currently not enough seats for those at BACX, are they, and for that matter mainline still interviewing?

:confused:

aa

The supplementary bid for all 25 (23 captains and 2 first officers)MAN secondees ended at 9 o'clock this morning. I believe CP will be supplied with a list of those secondees who want to fly the RJ at EDI, INV or IOM. Final selection will be determined by date of joining parent company, eg. a BA secondee who joined BA in 1998 will be outbid by a BACX pilot who joined Manx in 1995. No preference or special treatment is being given to the secondees in this respect.

It looks like there's only a handful of secondees who have aspired for commands at EDI, INV or IOM. Once you introduce the date of joining the parent company, there may only be a couple of secondees who have enough seniority to move with the aircraft.

cap.pulitov and The Little Prince, it looks like the BACC has approached the subject with fairness and consideration for the BACX community. This time (unlike the original transfer of the RJ) there is no advantage in being a secondee in order to get the seat and base of your choice.

A good point Paul, thank you.

It is interesting to note, (and please, everyone, try and take this in the objective way it is meant), that False Capture says:

"it looks like the BACC has approached the subject with fairness and consideration for the BACX community. This time (unlike the original transfer of the RJ) there is no advantage in being a secondee in order to get the seat and base of your choice."

In other words, since there is no advantage being a mainline person, we'll level the playing field!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

On balance, I continue to believe that the totally breath-taking hypocrisy of the BA mainliners who post on here is simply beyond belief. Oh yeah, we'll errrrr play fair on THIS occasion since there's no advantage to us by not doing!!!!!:\

Do we LOOK as though we sailed up the Mersey on a Banana Boat?????? Get a life!:mad:

In January of 2002, The Little Prince wrote:

"My information is that we at BA CitiExpress are to receive all the CFE 146s to operate out of Manchester and Birmingham. I understand that the ex CFE pilots will be initially operating them, but will be replaced by our low cost equivalent as our guys come on line. The ex CFE guys will then be soaked up in mainline as the pilot shortage starts to happen again with the ongoing retiral bulge. I wasn't quite sure how to interpret the future for the LGW services, but presumably an earlier post referring to greater utilisation of the airbuses would acount for that. Again, presumably a gradual thing. One can see the sense in it as BA slowly lower their regional cost base courtesy of ourselves - assuming they can get away with continuing to turn the Ts and Cs screw on us."

So TLP, now you've been given the aircraft, the routes, the terminals, and the extra jobs, you no longer want to be the "low cost" pilot you so enjoyed being then.

Now you want to be a mainline pilot.

Is that the kind of "breath-taking hypocrisy" you were referring to ?

It may well just be me, but I fail to see the point you are making. At the risk of being arrogant (moi???) it is clear Iwas entirely right. BA HAVE lowered their Regional Cost Base, unfortunately, thanks to BACC they have got away with turning the Ts and Cs screw on us in a HUGE way. The only area of my post where I was wrong was that not all of the CFE guys have been soaked up in mainline (and BTW what a huge difference there is between ex CFE and mainliners!)

However, as another point to ponder, since you talk about us wanting to get onto the mainline Seniority List. Initially, BA management offered BACX BAe 146 and RJ100 pilots the opportunity to join CFE on the Master Seniority List. Just us, not the rest of BACX. Now, it may well be argued that not accepting that was a tactical blunder, however we turned it down. Why? Because in BACX we tend NOT to just look after the interests of a few, but to try and stick together. We were not going to take an offer which would have looked totally as though the BACXCC were only cossetting the chosen few. Compare that to the way BACC have acted throughout!

Finally, as maybe the MAIN point to ponder: Back in January 2002, we had only just been taken over. What did that mean? Well, basically we were extremely profitable, turning in record profits year on year. Our management complement were relatively slim in number and more importantly, KNEW HOW TO RUN A REGIONAL AIRLINE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Can anyone blame us for becoming a little cynical? It's bad enough having to fight the Competition, it's worse having a management which goes out of its way to shaft us, but worst of all is being screwed by our 'fellow' pilots! :yuk: :yuk:

...er what about the other ex MAN people on the 757/767 fleet that have been commuting for years?

The secondees either go with the aircraft (I know two definately going to EDI) or bid off. If they happen to get the 767 and get a JFK occasionally fair enough.

Now if you are talking about eastablishing a 767 MAN base (now I wonder if anyone has thought of that before..Oh yes I forgot they closed it) then you are talking.

However many of the secondees would be killed in the crush and not get anywhere near it.

Yeah thats a great idea.

Lets give the secondees the right to all the 7 day JFK back to back's (one of the flets best trips to many) just so they don't have to commute and sod everyone else who's had to suffer base closure in the past and had to vacate their prefered regional/scottish base.

Now if anyone doesn't like the thought of commuting then there is a solution.

Move house.

Plenty have had to. Others suffer the commute. The bottom line is if you want to fly for BA its one or the other.

JOAT,

I'm not sure what question you are asking TLP, BRAL, etc..,

The difference that I see between ex-CFE , Mainline and us is that we are 'guaranteed' an interview. True, but ex CFE had no interview, mainline secondees needed no interview, blah blah. Yes I know that will automatically cause an uproar about 'our mainline aircraft' gifted to you, etc, etc... but that is not the intention. The fact is that there is a disparity in relative treatment/concessions between the differing workforces..

..or am I mis-reading your interpretation of the verb 'To Shaft'?

RM

(Edited cos JockOffAllTrades post deleted)

CFE had no interview because they were taken over and employment law was on their side.

BA would have done anything not to have them on the master seniority, as would the 50 or so people who lost their (rightful) command chance because of some made up Grandfather Rights issue which was allegedly a lie by BALPA.

BRA is a wholly owned subsidiary. A totally different proposition.

As for the secondees, surely you should know by now the parent company can pretty much do as they like with the child.

The Little Prince,

Instead of twining-on about CFE pilots joining the mainline seniority list, why not apply to BA through the system in-place whereby all BACX pilots are guaranteed an interview.

Compared to putting all BACX pilots on the bottom of the BA seniority list, those BACX pilots who've been successful in getting into BA have effectively bypassed many of their former BACX colleagues. Furthermore, the ex-BACX pilots who've got into BA did so due to the time and effort which they invested in studying for their BA interviews. As a result, they probably don't want you to simply join the bottom of their BA mainline seniority list.

I get the impression you want all the BA perks without any of the effort - almost as though you feel it's owed to you. Either apply to BA and get the terms and conditions you deserve or wind your neck in!!:ok:

i had enough of you nigels
telling us we should be happy with our lot as we have been gifted those brilliant RJs from mainline!

the fact is, before all those RJs arrived we had lots of happy pilots living in the regions flying their ATPs, Jetstreams and so on.

but then big brother had a brilliant idea, lets close as many bases in the regions as possible, 'what a great idea for a regional airline' .
you ba folks telling us we should be happy about that, i'm telling you we are not, as over all we have seen a reduction of airframes,
demotions and people having to up route their families to move to parts of the country they wouldn't have dreamt about.

not only did we get stuck with those RJs, we now have to do monitored approaches and give up our gold stripes for silver ones,what ever next>

all i can say to you is, stick your crappy RJs,where the sun ain't shine and leave as alone.

You forgot to mention the SESMA/FDA program!;)

The next thing could be the adoption of fuel league/tables.:{

That's outrageous! After that, we'll be lumbered with an improved safety culture and increasing standards across the board. Whatever next?

Q,

I've edited this post for the reason that we shouldn't air too much dirty linen in public,

however, I'll say 'Wind your neck in' before someone with less tact than me bites your head off!

Au revoir

Go on...give us a clue....

At least now with BA people in not all the captains sound like a Toxteth scally.

I quote from a PA

"The weather is real nice down there" in the best Wayne Rooney accent you can imagine.

This after quite posibly the worse Captain's welcome PA I have ever heard.

Also don't the BA guys act as a sort of anti-thesis to the GA flying club boys that now run the RJ as a ......GA flying club operation* instead of an airliner (Ok just about an airliner)

* quote from BACX secondee

Still rest assured if 99.9% of BA pilots had a choice those that are even aware of BACX would get rid of it and let our people go back to the regional mainline bases.

Trouble is BA don't see it like that.

However you may get your independence if the losses continue.

I've wrestled for a long time with the 'why'; of the cultural difference. Actually, it's had more to do with the constantly proved inability of most BA pilots - God Bless You - may you live in interesting times......- to be able to understand why we have a problem with you. Hey, I'll try again.

1. We NEVER wanted to be in BA. We would have applied earlier if that was our aim.

This was because we had a Regional Airlines lifestyle which, for those of us which stuck with it, gave us what we wanted. Yep, it didn't pay as much, but it (was) very profitable, secure, and most important allowed us to live in an area of the country we had picked with a lifestyle that worked.

2. B.A. bought us.

Probably mainly for the LHR slots, who the hell knows. The ones that do probably aren't there anymore. We still DON'T actually want to be part of BA, but we accept we are but teensy cogs. However, having delivered what our purchasers presumably wanted (whatever that was) we are more than a little p#ssed off at where we are. Our profitable Company has been trashed. Our bases have been closed. Our Fleets have been grounded. Sensible explanatory communication on the issue from both BA management and BALPA has been nil, condescending and illogical. Our employment base has shrunk, our jobs are constantly moving/relocating......but somehow we should be grateful for this.......er.....just like Dan Air eh? As the man said, don't p#ss down my back and tell me it's raining!!!!!!!:mad:

3. Regardless of any personal antipathy I or any other BACX pilot may have for individual secondees, that is irrelevant. We neither want, (nor certainly expect any more) sympathy from mainline for the usual treatment they extend to their ...er....'wholly owned subsidiaries' as opposed to their 'take-overs' (Jesus, Mohammed et al, and we're supposed to have some solidarity eh?) I must find a lawyer to explain the difference. WE DON'T WANT TO BE PART OF BA. WE HAVE NO CHOICE - WE ARE. THEREFORE, WE EXPECT TO BE TREATED FAIRLY AS SUCH.

4. Several choices I guess. No means of enforcement.

a) BA can (again) with the connivance of BALPA execute a Dan-Air scenario.

b) As the losses mount up, due entirely to the pathetic inability of their management to emulate our FORMER management and make a profit, they could dispose of us one corporate way or another.

c) BALPA could show a little honour, unite and demand that BACX pilots join the master seniority list at the bottom.

Now, please, explain how option 'c' would disadvantage ANY serving mainline pilot??? What it would do, ethically and morally would protect the jobs of people who never wanted to join BA - but whose Company and careers were purchased and completely f#cked by BA. Yes, the circle is squared. We didn't want to be part of BA, we would rather it had never happened. (I'll gloss over the disposal of the people who made the component parts of BACX profitable....but who were deemed .....surplus to requirements. ) How the BA personnel are unable to understand our point of view is the mountain that has stood between them.....and the rest of the Industry for twenty five years. In the worst possible scenario, I suppose people who have trained mainliners, have flown with them, have flown mainline aircraft previously...might all flunk a conversion. If that were the case.....well, then mainliners could sneer at will and we would have to get on with it. But....er.....although the CFE chop rate may have been slightly higher than the full, shiny, total interview candidate....

1) would that matter in really significant cost terms in the great BA 'big picture budget'?

2) are we talking conversion failures versus line training failures, because I happen to know that those two stats are very different in the BA system, and a load of total bollo#cks is inferred by the true politicians their management are when comparing apples with bananas.

3. Would it be significant in the great scheme of things if the occasional LPL accent were heard - it might balance the self-satisfied vocal smirking from those whose security owed nothing to their ability but all to their skewed BALPA allegiance and the fortuitous nature of their contracts!!!!

I fly with people every day whose main concern is their jobs, their families, their locations, their futures. Regrettably, I also fly sometimes with people whose only worry is... er... 747 or 777. Or perhaps...ummmm LHR or LGW and what are the commuting costs from France versus the tax breaks. I suppose I'm pretty used to it by now, I suppose I don't even hope for a happy ending any more.........BUT THERE IS NO WAY I'LL LISTEN TO THE BA SH#T AND GO QUIETLY ANY MORE EITHER!!!!!!!!!

(Particularly when we get to the personalised condescending patronising and innaccurate horse - sh#t of the nature of the last Nigel herewith.)






PS Timbo got fired though - maybe there is a God......:}

Well said Little Prince,

is it true that you got accepted into the BA holding pool a few years ago, after passing the interview process ????

but decided (hmm) to stay put in CWL

:hmm: :hmm:

Little Prince for management.

Willie Walsh, are you reading this.

Would you care to reply in any way.

One of the best assets you can have is your staff.

Your BACX pilots need to be treated with the respect they deserve.

I watch with interest to see how you sort this mess out.

Willie, why not invite Little Prince for lunch sometime and
hear what a man from the other side thinks.

The Little Princess

What you don't seem to realise, is that 'British Airways Plc' are the SOLE arbiters of whom they choose to employ.

No amount of "demands" from a 'united BALPA and BACX pilots' will change that one jot!

When BA Plc see that it is in THEIR interests to incorporate BACX pilots onto the master seniority list; they will do exactly that. Until that time, they will not!

The problem is this: You yourself (happily?) described BACX as the 'low cost' arm of BA when all those regional RJ jobs came your way. But you can't now seem to grasp the true meaning of the term "clear blue water" so beloved (I believe) of your outgoing GMFO!!

Now if BACX truly IS such a bad place to work, you know exactly what to do!

Many of your (recently ex) colleagues have, and already ARE moving up the BA master seniority list, with more to follow.

The opportunity is open to you too. What makes YOU so special, that you deserve to avoid the efforts THEY have made?

As for your comment:

".........BUT THERE IS NO WAY I'LL LISTEN TO THE BA SH#T AND GO QUIETLY ANY MORE EITHER!!!!!!!!!"

Fill your boots. Nobody cares any more whether YOU are quiet OR bitter and twisted!

It is simply not an issue for anybody in mainline.

Not meant to be harsh, it's just a fact.

Enough of the arrogant, supposedly snobbish attitudes..

BA have LPL pilots already working for them. I know of several (2 of which would have stood a great chance as extras on Brookside!!! They can't spell for sh1t (sorry boys, but you know it's true, and I've wound you up about it in the past!)).

A couple of years ago it was proven that regional accents were deemed more acceptable than 'marbles in mouth' South East accents (BBC findings I believe).

We are continually being told to go elsewhere if we don't like the job we are in now. Put yourself in the same position... 12-15 years seniority and Nigel decides to unilaterally redefine the definition of the regional airline you signed up to.. as well as disposing of 26 aircraft which were operating profitably without Nigel's interference... THEN telling you that you should be grateful for the 16 'mainline' (HA!) aircraft that were gifted to you... even though you would only be allowed to fill the remaining seats after the elite had their pick.

BA love to pride themselves on the fact that they are considered a 'non-redundancy' airline.. Well waken up and smell the coffee cos BACX (A Wholly Owned Subsidiary - what a difference :hmm: ) are about to enforce quite a few redundancies after the latest business plan (contradiction in terms!).

I know that not all mainline pilots spout the sh1t that the posters on pprune do.. God forbid. I do realise that it's the minority with chips on their shoulders, and broomshafts up their @sses, but they ought to actually open their eyes and look as a human being and a supposedly fellow professional (yes we actually ALL have the same qualifications as you) to see the devastation that is being caused to family life because of the ineptitude of BA managers who have still been unable to successfully run a regional airline.

There are no Liverpudlian pilots working in the UK - you need a criminal records check to hold an airside pass, so how can there be?

Aye

Calm down, calm down!:)