Not orange...
yes any union or recognised body is divisive. You wouldnt get 1000 to join a company 'union'. And a company union wouldnt give any of the non-industrial benefits that BALPA does offer. Therfore I, and probably 500-600 others wouldnt join. It would just divide us all further. The company still wins.

BALPA sure aint perfect. But no union or organisation can keep all the members happy, all the time. Or for free. It is just the democratic society we live in...

the main block to joining for 'most' folks seem to be the cost vs the anticipated return.

obviously the return may be better the bigger the stick (membership) but on the basis of what we just negotiated it could be worse. (I voted NO by the way ).

I am not a fan of unions but feel that the low cost airlines will continue to erode conditions Industry wide . so therefore it becomes essential for us to support the company in it's drive to keep costs low BUT to at least have the power to say.. NO.. where it clearly affects our lives in an unacceptably detrimental way.

BALPA is not respected. a simple fact regardless of the perception being based on fact or simple implication due to the lack of membership uptake.

soooooo (here goes)... if the biggest block is the fact that Pilots are not willing to fork out to join based on the fact that they will not see a worthwhile return, then here's an alternative.........

Offer EVERY non-balpa pilot in EZY free membership on a 'reduced' basis for 1 year. absolutely free membership but for that one year all they get Is :

A: the right to vote on company proposals
B: Access to the free internet forum on the BALPA site.

they would not get any of the other beneifts of association, no representation , no mailed minutes (a bonus in my opinion) nothing that would cost BALPA any money at all apart from entering their name on the computer.

if that were the case you might get 90% uptake and be in a better position to make a majority case at the next round of talks.

once the year is up, if BALPA have made good use of the membership and made some ground them you might find a significant majority stay in. If you cock it up then they won't and neither will I.

while existing members might feel a little shafted (financially) they must be a way to even it out in year two when the benefits of the CC's masterful (?) negotiation may be felt......or something like that !

at the moment despite the hard work of the CC it's a case of the lesser of two evils for me.

oh, and as a last point CC members are elected because they wanted to be elected. no hot pokers were thrust in the vicinity of their rear ends when volunteers were requested....... with that in mind would the usual suspect PLEASE stop acting like kids and bleating about how hard they work and jumping on anyone who doesn't agree in a PC manner. deal with it.

the biggest fights are ahead of us not behind us, it might be worth remembering that.

BALPA yes or no?

Fact is: game over! BALPA members did vote!
5-4-5-2 is the new game! Not everybody will like it.

I do not believe that there will be any improvement to negoiate in the next future!

The mangement must be satisfied. So many e-mails from all mangement levels to explain what a great deal for the pilots it will be!
This made the matter at least a little suspicious!
By the way, I think the idea of FLYING SCOTSMAN could be a way to go!

flying scotsman - RESPECT!! :ok: :ok:

Norman Stanley Fletcher -

"The fact is that every single pilot at easyjet, regardless of experience or nationality had the right to join BALPA and thereby could have voted in this election. If you choose not to join then you have to live with the consequences (and I do!)."

Only problem is that Balpa turned around and said "If you were not a member by xx date, you are not entitled to vote"... What kind of c**p was that about?? I mean, the company has hired quite a few pilots in the past months so it actually affected quite a few new pilots........

CaptainProp

The whole story please.....wouldn't want to mislead would we.

The first date put out was the date on which in was anticipated that ballot papers would be distributed ergo no more join to vote.

As it happened, the ballot was delayed and therefore, as announced on the company intranet, you could join right up to the date that the papers went out.

What's your problem with that?

So anyway Flaps,

Didn't some folk at STN not get ballot papers.?

Can you tell me how many members in BALPA ... I hear its about 330. So that would mean about 130 voted Yes!!! out of some 1250 pilots.

Any EU laws about propotional representation??

JS,

...And only about 60 voted No.

As with most nay-sayers...what is your solution?

Wiz, it's a credibility issue. The problem is when you and others say only 60 voted no you are disregarding the vast silent majority who wished also to say no. But thats all been covered already, and I think the Flying Scotsmans suggestion is spot on.

Ok so I can't prove that there is a vast silent majority, but can only go on what is said and heard in the crew room and what I read on the company web site. And there were clearly divided views and opinions spread company wide so really the fact that in the end so few of the total number of pilots made a change to what a lot of the pilots liked rankles a little.

John Smith,

Get a life and stop searching for mischief.

If you had any credibility you would know that there has to be in excess of 50% membership of a companies pilots for it to be recognised as a union.

Voluntary recognition can be made with just one member. Above 50% you can force recognition.

If anyone knows of a more democratic system than free balloting of employees legally enfranchised to bargain collectively then, please, speak up. The world of Industrial Relations is waiting.

Cheers

WWW

Mr Smith

The 330 figure you quote (in fact it should be 339) is only the number of people registered as users of the bulletin board, and not the total number of Balpa members. The figures have nothing to do with each other.

You are being fed duff gen Mr Smith, try another source!!!!

This whole debate is laughable.

Whether you like Balpa or not, the Company was obliged to recognise Balpa as the sole negotiating body after pressure from the pilots.

Whatever you might think of Balpa, that is the way things are in EZY. So any negotiations on pay, terms & conditions are done through Balpa.

Those of us who are members have a say, a vote on the major issues, and a chance to represent our fellow pilots on the democratically elected Council. If we vote, then regardless of the result, at least we know we had a chance to make a real difference to our lot in life.

I do feel sorry for the pilots who are not members. You have no voice, no say, no idea of the debates, conclusions or options surrounding decisions on your pay or lifestyle. You have no outlet for your views, no representation, and then you have to swallow whatever the brothers vote for whether you like it or not.

It must be like drifting aimlessly on a open sea. No wonder you're all bitching like kids with broken toys.

And what amazes me more - when you get a cr@p deal it's all Balpa's fault! Imagine how much more generous the Company would have been if it hadn't been for those plutocratic, greedy fascists in Balpa trying to get a worse deal just to increase their membership!

You could swallow your pride and join up, form your own union, shut up your pointless whinging, or just keep on moaning in that infantile way that Balpa is spoiling your beautiful career at EZY. Since I doubt any of the bigmouth Balpa-bashers on this thread would go a million miles near pulling their thumbs out of their @rses and actually doing something constructive, I suspect the last option will be the landslide winner......

Mr Ree,

I also quite like Scotties suggestion, but with one reservation... What happens at the end of this one year of grace? A great many pilots will choose not to take up membership if they have to put their hands in their pockets. The next time a negotiation is voted on by those that have, the "Silent Majority" will get on here and in the crewroom and cry foul, and we are back to square one.

Anyone who doubts the value of BALPA recognition, go up a couple of threads and read what's going on at Ryan. Don't believe it wouldn't happen here without representation.

I'm sorry, but the "Silent Majority" where given the chance (In fact where just about begged!!) to put themselves in the position to vote on this and previous issues.

If you feel dis-enfranchised, all it will cost you this year is .5%...

I thought the 5/2/5/4 deal was at the instigation of the pilots themselves? The pilots got what they wanted so why all the discussion about being railroaded by BALPA/easyJet?

Got what they wanted!! Er, rubik, when was the last time you heard of Pilots volunteering to give away 10 days leave in return for a roster scarcely any different from the one they had, plus accepting 2 - 3 mths chaos rostering per year, and none of the little details of the agreement made binding on the company?

All because the union threatened that it would be even worse if they did not go along with this.

Some union.

bye bye captains loyalty bonus next? Theyve already negotiated away the FO's. Nice of them, dont you think?

Whatever the union (BALPA) might have said or 'threatened' prior to the vote it would not be worse after the event. Had the vote failed the conditions would simply stay the same as they were prior to the vote. Were you threatened, Agaricus?
The pilots themsleves came up with the idea of the 5/2/5/4. The loss of leave was the price paid by the pilots to offset the fewer working days per year.
Why 2-3 months of chaos per year after the acceptance of the deal? Surely we only go through the changeover once?
Why some of you, perhaps within ezy as well as outside, are ready to sling hooks and arrows at the company when you appear to know little or nothing of the conditions within the company, is beyond me. If it was as bad as you seem to think pilots would be leaving in droves instead of easyJet being first on the list for many pilots seeking a job.

rubik,

The "2-3 months chaos" is the 4 weeks random roster period after every 16 weeks 5254.

I worked 5254 for a while and (for me) it gave better quality of life, both during the working days, and the days off.

I don't mind losing a block of leave, since I get it back spread over the year.

I do mind not being able to plan my life for 4 weeks in 20, so this for me is the "price".

Given my exhaustion doing a shift change each and every week, I am willing to pay this price.

The amount of work I'll actually do each year will of course stay the same - namely 830 (ish) hours a year.

How anyone can get so upset with this change, I just cannot begin to understand.

Stu

Rubik.......how on earth can you imply EZY is a target airline!.
Guys wanting a first job maybe!
People are starting to vote with their feet, from the top down, do a little research, you might suprise yourself.

Give me some of what your drinking:}

noflare

It's very interesting but your post is almost identical in the message it conveys as postings here on PPrune 3 and more years ago.

What's going on now, in terms of leavers numbers, is not a patch on the 2003-4 figures.

So some Base Capt's are moving on...........whoopeeeee doooo! There are plenty around to take their places and, in one case, everybody's highly delighted.

There are only two things keeping me at easyjet, the loyalty bonus and an imminent free Airbus rating. Its not just base Captains who are leaving, some senior trainers have also resigned, not to mention 3 Captains from an already undercrewed Belfast. Decision time for me will come once I have 500hrs on the 319. Stability is on the slide at the moment, the company needs to buck up.

The Company is "bucking up"!

nonemmett is typical of most of us hanging on at EJ - not because we're died-in the wool orange people, but because we're getting a 5% bonus every year, the promise of a free Airbus rating to go with our free B737 rating, plus a decent paypacket. Now we're getting a 5-day week!

Take those away and there's only the sh!t rostering, unbelievable fatuous management b0ll0cks, (Step Change??? whats that steaming pile of !!!! all about) outrageous workload and awful ex-Go junkheap aeroplanes. And that's certainly not worth sticking around for.

Flaps One:

You really need to get out and about, it is only then you will appreciate the true feelings of a lot of the pilots.
No of us are stupid enough to jump with nothing to go to, but when the right opportunity presents itself we will be off.
Dont be fooled by the lack of movement.

As recent postings suggest type ratings are a major reason to hang on at the moment. This is not a target/longterm prospect , it's rapidly becoming a training ground for guys to get qualified and then move to a decent employer (no doubt those in Orange towers will put a stop to this pretty soon!).

I actually think the BC/ Trainers resignations are quite significant (like them or not!!), then again I suppose it s a good chance to put some more "yes" men in place.

As for the loyalty bonus, isnt that going?

Anyway last one out switch the lights off!:uhoh:

noflare,

Genuine question. Who do you percieve this to be, and what do you think will be better (all things considered) elsewhere?

no flare,

It makes me quite happy with my lot when I read your bitter posts. I enjoy my job and my time at work.

How sad that you spend so much time in your life wishing for something else but doing nothing about it.

noflare

No, sorry to disappoint you and the small band who insist that it is the case but..............the loyalty bonus is not going. Not unless something better is found to replace it, and that looks pretty unlikely just now, don't you think?

In fact, the company have had to agree to change a very misleading statement about that very thing on the public website.

no flare et al - you guys need to go somewhere else very quickly and leave behind the 90%+ of pilots who are happy. There will always be those who want long haul - best of luck to them. They will always provide a steady stream of highly capable people to the likes of BA, Virgin & Emirates. There will also be a small but steady group of people who are so negative as to make themselves unemployable anywhere else and who simply will do nothing but whine all day long. Fortunately they are few and far between but seem to write on here at great length. I sometimes think they are working for another employer or know about that amazing job somewhere which is so perfect as to make easyJet seem so dire to work for.

Just try and be more positive even for a few hours so you can actually manage to get your fantasy job at 'Utopian Airways'. (Sadly by joining it you will ruin it and then find it is not so great after all.) Then you can at last leave easyJet for those of us who want to make a good job better still.

Norman et al; I'm delighted you are enjoying life in the Orange bubble, thats great....but please spare the rest of us the crap of 90+% pilots are happy.

A lot of us are taking notice of your pearls of wisdom and moving on, and believe it or not there are other employers out there with better T&C's.

Thats my lot on it.....cheers:ok:

Have to agree - I'm working my notice now and yes I'm off to pastures new with far better terms and conditions than those I leave behind.

Easyjet has been great - they've had plenty of hours out of me and in return I've had a quick command and had a very nice standard of living on both F/O and Captain's salaries. However I look alot older now than I did when I joined! A career airline it is not and in my opinion will never be, unless you want to be permanently tired, especially in the summer. Some people love it and some have grown to loathe it - the trick is to do something about it if you've had enough....easier said than done of course especially once the golden handcuffs are on!

It doesn't matter which airline you work for they will all want their pound of flesh from you but everyone who has joined Easy in the last 5 years and is now a relatively young Captain/SFO is asking the same question: 'Can I do this for the rest of my career?'. The answer in just about 100% of cases is NO.

MacTom

You are probably right; many people may very well ask themselves if they can continue that style of flying for the next umpteen years. I am one of them. But consider this: any airline making money flying around Europe is working its crews at least as hard as easyJet, probably harder, and for less.

Lo-cost airlines have pushed flight crews to unheralded levels of productivity that has squashed ticket prices for customers, and seeded a desperately needed evolution in air travel. They have created opportunities for passengers, pilots, cabin crew, and developed long lamented airports such as Liverpool - in fact, compare that particular airport now with its former self of just five years ago.

True, the status of pilots has almost collapsed when measured against an earlier time, but then there are considerably more of us successfully pursuing the childhood dream to one degree or another.

BA short haul pilots working from LHR are doing four sector days. They spend most of their week away from home (according to seniority) and they fly as many hours per year as a guy or gall with orange wings. At least the latter see their own bed, and all its benefits, every night. It's the future for all of us on short haul.

But this is the rub. Sooner or later we, the diminished, will be unable to follow the lifestyle that seems to have become acceptable. An accident may occur, we may strike, we could rebel, or we could simply die. And an inquiry will conclude that modern rostering practices were to blame.

I fear that one day we all of us, pilots, cabin crew, and management in all of aviation shall pay a high price for the rise of lo-cost.

FQ

I can't believe everyone is arguing over how many people are in Balpa at Easyjet etc. From my experience, easyjet employs a lot of pilots from foreign countries in order to keep Balpa membership as low as possible within the airline. As suggested if Balpa were to offer free membership to non-members for a year, Easyjet would have to listen to Balpa. My advice is that there are a lot better jobs out there. You have good time off and get paid well. I left Easy and I can safely say that it was the best career move I have ever done. Easy will not change. Get out and have a life!

Flying Quill,

Agree with you where rostering is concerned but have to disagree about seeing my bed every night! I have spent the last few months being shipped round various bases (not long stints I admit - 5 nights max) and in the summer I often arrive home 0400-0600 which is fine as long as you have no life, sleep all day and are ready to go back to work at 1700 same day. So if you are a single guy it's great.

The reality is alot of us have young kids so I am regularly short of sleep in the summer - not good. Last week I was twice back at work after 3-4 hours sleep max and on my last day I was struggling badly as was my F/O so I'm glad to be on my way.

The grass is always greener, isn't it? I tend to agree with NSF, why don't those who are serving out their time let us all know where they are going and the T&Cs they are going to so that we can all judge for ourselves just how unfatigued and rich they are going to be.

Cheers all,
mcdhu

Apply to T-fly. I jumped ship to BAL mainline. T-fly have the same terms as mainline.
1/Block windows- if a duty changes by +/-2hrs of original time, you can refuse the duty.
2/The CC have just agreed that we will be rostered for 4 days work per week.With 3 guarnteed days off.
3/No standby- Offer your days off back and get a lump sum for your day off.
4/Gold and silver days off- 5 pairs of each. Golds you can book off up to a year in advance. Silver pairs up to 12 weeks in advance
5/Never rostered to start duty before 8amz after days off.Have to finish duty by 11z before days off.
6/42 days holiday per year.
7/Final salary pension scheme after two years service.
8/Time to command is very low. Lower than Easy. 3000hrs.
9/Possibility of going over to mainline. Rumour has it that we will have the B787 in 2008.
10/ You are not constantly knackered and will actually have a lot of time off.
11/ Cheap holidays
12/Good salary

The choice is yours! I made the right one and the change has been remarkable!I have a life now!!!!!

..................and how do you find the day Tfs, Dlm, Lca, etc - never mind the night ones! I jumped the other way from a similar Airline to get out of them and have no regrets. As you say, its our choice.

Cheers,
mcdhu

Mcdhu

TFS, LCA etc? What are they, 9-hour days? That's up to 2 1/2 hours shorter than the days I fly with EasyJet, and a lot less hassle.

I can confirm that CSDU made the right move. If I get one more smug phone call about how little he is doing for the amount of money he's getting, I will probably stuff his phone up his jacksy. ;) (Or maybe just keep crying!)

It may be comparing apples and oranges, but in the grand scheme of things, there is no comparison between Brits and Ezy, so why even bother arguing?

Keep enjoying T-Fly CS! (It can't last, surely?:{ :{ :{ )

CSDU
4 on 3 off thats 156 days off a year + 42 days leave. Is that something that your German colleagues enjoy rubbing off in the UK??

This could be why the big sausage pilot churn out is happening at CTC, 24-35 cadets a year I believe. You guys will accept what ever because if you don't there are thousands of people willing to do it.

You Gimboid,

Not quite. The average flying time from my log book for a Lca was about 4.35 out and 4.55 back so shall we call the block times 4.50 and 5.10. The duty, therefore, comes in at 12.30 or 12.00 Fdp - just do-able if you check in between 06 and 1759. Believe me, a night Lca is a mind bending experience!!

As to the hassle, I think you might find the incidence of 'air rage' (alcohol induced of course) and medical emergencies are quite high on holiday flying. Furthermore, if at a small base with 1 or 2 ac, once the programme starts to run late, it can knock on for days because there is no recovery time in the summer and no spare ac and then you are dealing with very cross punters!

My point is only that things on the other side of the fence are not always as rosy as those over there are prepared to admit. If thinking about jumping, do all possible research before committing.

Cheers all,
mcdhu

Mcdhu

Perhaps so. But two long sectors with two lots of passengers, and then home to bed sure beats 4 sectors in the same duty period, four different lots of pax with all their various problems..... and if you think holiday traffic creates lots of drunkenness and air rage, what the heck do you think happens when you're selling tickets at twenty quid each way to AMS, PRG, SXF etc?

As I said before, it's apples and oranges, but the hassle factor is astronomical in both cases!

I prefer longer flights. You have got a fighting chance of reading the paper.

I would much prefer to do flights to Larnaca, Luxor etc eight times per month than do 60 to 70 sectors! The advantage of doing longer flights i.e. caa level 2 variations, is that you get a day off before and after.

My life has completely changed, I am now far more relaxed and have a social life. Night flights are not for everyone! I remember joining Easy. they stated that if you were a family man, it was fantastic as you never did any night flying and were always back home every evening. Hairy b......s!I left Easy after flying 1350 hrs in 21 months 950 hrs were at night. At least I get to see Eastenders and the Bill. failing that you can find me at my local.

Anyway, the majority of the flights range from between 1.5 hrs to 3.5 hrs. Which means duty periods of between 5 to 10 hrs!