Guys

In Nov and Dec I was in both SXF and ORY and I personally took advertising material with me and placed it in crewrooms.

If this has been removed, perhaps we should look elsewhere at who is to blame.

Try not to tell us to get off our @rses - all of this is done in our own time.

Somehow I doubt now is the time for BALPA to run a recruitment drive in EZY. I've met a fair few guys recently who are considering leaving BALPA as a result of the current mess. The management must be laughing their legs off. I would have thought that now would be the time for rival unions to be pushing recruitment.

Some interesting comments here. As far as getting off our arses... well I wonder where we would be if we hadn't. I seem to remember the no deice shambles and other similar events as being a bit of a pain if you were an EJ pilot. Does anybody really believe that the only reason for the progress on rostering since then has been the "excellent management" at EJ.

As far as the members / non-members debate..... well there will always be freeloaders in any organisation, but does anybody remember the "clickers", during the confontation between Frank Lorenzo, and his pilots.

Wonder how the easy freeloaders would feel about that ?.

FlapsOne and Muzza,

Please don´t get me wrong. I´m not a freeloader and I fully support BALPA, and when I joined BALPA I did so on my own initiative because I felt it was the right thing to do. Apart from one (very) brief talk on the first days of type training, I never heard from BALPA and I had to push some colleagues/friends/fencesitters very hard to sign up. As Basic-T stated, I´m convinced that a lot of present and future BALPA support can be gained from the overseas bases which continue to grow at a very fast pace.

I am very split on the 5-2-5-4 issue but I wont go into details on this public forum. Nevertheless I really DO appreciate all the CC´s efforts who worked very hard at this!

Last but not least I wish we had an easyJet forum here on PPRuNe, which would allow a bit more privacy in discussing these issues.

Found on the net. Looks like it is not just the pilots who are having a spot of bother.

Easyjet accuses union of breaking trust over holiday pay talks
24 January 2005 03:17
The row between EasyJet and Amicus escalated last Friday, when the low-cost airline barred the union, which represents cabin crew staff, from a key meeting on trading.

EasyJet blocked access in protest at Amicus's decision to tell The Times about a clash between the two sides over holiday pay, blaming the union for breaking trust between the two sides. The airline carried on the meeting with Balpa, the pilots' union, and the Transport & General Workers union.

A spokesman for EasyJet said: "We have been discussing the issue of holiday pay with the union and we thought their decision to make that public was not conducive to trust between us and to us sharing market-sensitive information with them."

EasyJet has suggested another meeting next month after a cooling-off period.

Amicus has warned EasyJet that it will face legal action if it does not raise holiday pay to include regular bonus payments, which are made to cabin crew each time they fly.

At present, those bonuses – called sector pay – are paid only during flying duties and not for holiday periods. The union argues that this contravenes European working-time regulations as defined by the Employment Relations Act. They say the Act stipulates that holiday pay has to take account of regular bonus and commission payments.

EasyJet said that it was prepared to face employment tribunal action over the holiday pay dispute, as the practice is common in the airline industry.

Exactly....

If BALPA is so hopeless... let us all resign and hand management full control.... random rostering.. two weeks leave... 50% salary, and pay for all your training/accomodation/meals etc... It works for one company who dont seem short of crew... it would be easy for easy...

If the Continental bases want representation, then where are their volunteers? Thats what all the UK bases have had to provide. There aint no BALPA without pilots volunteering to represent! Same in every company, in every country.

ref the easyjet PpRuNe forum.. it still exists, but was taken off menus due to lack of interest.

easyJet forum

There is an easyjet pilots' forum, for easyJet pilots, on Inside easyJet!

I really don't think this issue is for public airing while the debate is ongoing.

Outofsynch, don't draw comparisons with O'leary's mob, it's not on the British register. If this deal goes through you'll be down a block of leave and a substantial proportion of your roster will be random anyway. Too much of this proposal relies on the 'good faith' of crewing. There's more spin in it than a political manifesto. That's not progress.

Orangetree

It's obvious you have not read all the documents relating to this proposal - it's certain you have not read the full details of the alleviation proposed/offered by the CAA (eg. the rolling totals averaging out at 40h per week!) - it's glaringly obvious you are unaware of the lengths to which EZ management will go, and have already tried to go, to secure what they have sought for 3 years.

The 'substantial' proportion you refer to is 6 weeks per year, with the other 2 being duties rostered and published the preceeding month.

The proposal also contains the caveat that, if, with gained experience, the reserve periods prove to be unnecessarily long, they will be reduced.

That beats the cr@p out of 52 weeks of random.

There has been a lot of discussion hear with the phrase 5/2/5/4 being quoted without any explanation of what it means and some of the posts, such as exhausted's:-

"I'd hazard a guess that whoever is involved in the negotiations for you guys will make sure that you are regularly rostered to work as close to 23:59 before a day off and as early as possible to 06:00 after a day off."

indicate that the pattern of 5/2/5/4 is not known outside of easy.

Now, I don't work for easy but the pattern was described to me as follows:-

First 5 days are earlies, followed by 2 days off, then 5 days of lates, followed by 4 days off, then back to 5 of earlies....

Therefore, if this is correct, exhausted's comment would not apply.

If I have got this totally wrong then would any easy pilot please correct me and accept my apology.

Groundloop,

You are indeed correct that the essence of the rostering is to follow 5 earlies/ 2 days off / 5 lates / 4 days off and so on until after 16 weeks you do a month of reserve which is rostered randomly.
Unfortunately the company has produced a 'rostering protocol' (some of which has been published here) which reduces leave, takes back days off and reserves the right to vary the system as it sees fit.
The roster pattern is seen as a positive improvement but the restrictions of the protocol seem unacceptable to most.

Flapsone, its glaringly obvious that the weather is much brighter on your planet. It is glaringly obvious to me that I can have 68 hrs reduced to 66 between the rotation of earlies to 'lates'. In my base that can and will result in a stitch up. It's also glaringly obvious to me that this agreement leaves me with the same leave enjoyed by an officeworker..except they don't have to work through the night, do they?
Its glaringly obvious to me that I can work into a day off 5 times with it even counting towards a day off owed. If I wish to take the same leave as last year I have to work 5253 to make up the days. Try not to patronise in your attempt to cover up the mess BALPA have made.

Well said orangetree!!!!

As for people whittering on about this being a public forum....so what????? If the company or BALPA for that matter are embarrased about this proposed deal, doesnt that suggest something? Virgin Atlantic give 35 days a year leave, with that increasing by 1 day per year of service up to a max of 40....Lets see how many people jump on me for letting that slip!

Jetjockey,
You could also let slip that at Virgin with 7 days leave taken you only get 2 wraparound days off. This means with one weeks leave taken get only 9 days off or with 2 weeks taken get 18 days off! Lets not compare apples with pears!

So Virgin get 5 blocks of 9 days off, whereas what we have on the table is 4 blocks of 11!! 45 versus 44 off. Im surprised easyJet havent started marketing leave like Virgin do!

so one day different (not counting the ability to take an additional block of five days off) is worth a double explanation mark?

(If I'm just being dense and that was sarcasm, I appologise).

Unless that leave is taken in your flexible rostering period, which then only gives you nine days aswell. could happen twice a year couldnt it. 2 x 9 = 18, + 22 = 40!! yeah brilliant!

I think you will find that a day off in VA is a day off, like most other airlines.

I feel a little uneasy about discussing problems with EZY on either this forum or the inside easyjet forum. This forum is open to viewing by reporters mascarading as aircrew (how did the SXF incident get out??) or management gaining workers perceptions for forthcoming negotiations.

also, do you feel confident with the management not using words on the inside easyjet forum as evidence to deny a Captaincy, promotions have been held back for much less.

Also there is a forum for those who are willing to pay for air their views, at BALPA. Okay, some people are not members of Balpa because of dealings in the past.. Nice one!! a lower membership therefore reduces the negotiating power of the only union with negotiating rights!!. This in turn reduces the membership and the spiral dive ensues. The management are doing a damn fine job of divide and conquer, let's not make it easier for them...

Back to the BALPA website!!!

Er Jetjockey.....No!
If you are on a block of standbys before days off and you get called out on the last day you are obligated to work across your days off, albeit with days off payments. Even if you are rostered a flight before days off you can still get delayed downroute and miss important events back home.

Ok guys, the deal is this:

Do we want to know our days off in advance up to next year.

Do we want to extend our lives by working a shift pattern that allows the body to acclimatise and remain in the shift for more than just 3 days.

Do we want to work for 5 instead of 6 days a 'week'

Do we want to get rid of rostered flexi days, and be pre-planned to be off duty before midnight on the last day.

Do we want to be less fatigued in a working week - as will hopefully be found by the scientific study taking place.

To me the answer to these must be YES.

The alternatives of remaining on 6/3 or reverting to random rosterring are not good.

There are no perfect solutions except winning millions on the lottery and retiring to a beach away from work. So with this being the best offer on the table, then we must accept it. Then next year negotiations can take place which can maybe fine tune it more in our favour.

Seriously folks, the alternatives to the 5/2/5/4 are not going to make our lives better.

Clearly BALPA are giving away free Lithium prescriptions with membership these days. What happened here is simple. The management sold the union a bag of rusty nails. Now everyone should vote for it just in case they can improve it next year!!! 6/3 is supposed to be fatiguing? maybe - but only the way Easyjet choose to roster it. Get them to fix it then instead of negotiating away all our leave. As for FTL variations...that's pretty dangerous territory to be in even if this proposal had been worth the paper it was writtien on. Why the CAA have even considered allowing this is beyond the pail. If you think you're knackered now, just wait til the honeymoon period is over.

Now why the hell didn't we think of that?!?!

Can you just ring up and get it changed then, there's a good chap!

I hear that Mgmnt are saying this 5/2 5/4 proposal has to go through.....theyve got no backup other than use the threat of random rostering. How long do you think the operation will run on that.........answers on a postcard to Orange Towers!

Why should we have to join BALPA to get to vote on our future, can someone explain that to me......why should the minority decide for the majority?......sorry Colonel Klink but thats what you are:}. In the words of Jim Royal "collective barganing my arse",
why not ask everyone what they think!

The whole thing is a shambles as is the rest of the restructure, they seem to have quickly formed a gang to get out and about to sell it to the troops, will it work, lets wait and see!;)

Im off to Flaps One's planet, all aboard the skylark!!:rolleyes:

orangetree - I have to disagree with you. I have now looked at this quite carefully and I believe that the union guys have really done their homework correctly. This is overall a good deal and a significant improvement on our terrms and conditions. Once again I come back to my question previously - are you currently at LTN or EDI and have you actually worked this roster pattern? All the feedback I am getting is that while not being perfect (and what is?), this is a significant improvement on 6/3. The guys who are actually flying it are broadly speaking in favour of it.

I have also spoken to the union and management guys who are doing the tour of the bases and they have done good work on this in my judgement. I am not in BALPA and therefore will not be able to vote, but were I in the union I would be voting for it.

Orangetree

Your wrong. Your opposites are Ryanair swear by the 5 early, 5 late rosters and they can do many more hours than you in the day and week.
A FTL variation is required to move away from the current 3 early rule and any change has to be supported by medical evidence.
You can only complete that by applying a variation and at the same time run a fatigue trial. If it comes out that Pilots working 5/2/5/4 are more tired than random 6/3 then the 6/3 will rule or EZY start again. I suspect this will not be the case.
The whole issue is being overtaken by Industrial issues rather than Flight Safety.
Flappyfeet sums it up very well in my view. EZY and Balpa should be congratulated on the effort they have made.The UK Airline Industry can only benefit from this study as it will hopefully open up the early/late discussion.

Flapsone, I thought that was what BALPA subscriptions were for?
My real contention is that I have lost a bucket load of leave in this farce. I would have no objection 'trialing' 5254 if I had the same leave and RDO's as I do now. At least then I could prove that crewing will rip the ass out of it and I will find myself in well before midday on 'lates'.
I've seen plenty of rostering agreements in my time and every one of them was more simplistic, effective and popular than this one.

@noflare: Well, if you join BALPA, then you can join the majority of pilots within EZY and get to decide/vote! :p

orangetree,

No, you haven't. The number of days free of duty under this arrangement is unchanged in theory, and almost certainly increased in practice. The five blocks of leave have been retained (OK, one is five GDOs, but so what? You still don't go to work!) as well as no more flexi-days, a reduction in allowable duty hours, a four day break regularly and no more than 5 duties in a row ever.

You have obviously spent more time here on PPRUNE slagging the proposal than you have actually reading what it entails.

Yes, but no but...... the five Guaranteed Days Off will be claimed back off each of the next block of 4 days off so you will be on 5 2 5 3 for a while. So it's not really leave is it?

Plus what are the chances of getting 5 GDOs in a row apart from in the middle of October?

I'm leaning towards the no vote for a number of reasons:

1. Very selfish I know, but I don't like early mornings, five of them in a row will be a killer for me, I don't care what anyone else says. I know my body's limitations from a previous incarnation as a night freight dog, and it's early mornings. I don't have a problem with the current transition from early to lates. Plus at my current base looking back I'm effectively working 5 on 4 off as there is normally a unworked standby or contactable in each block, yet I still manage around 90-95 hours in a full months work.

2. Losing a block a leave is not good, and GDOs certainly do not count.

3. There's too many ifs and buts, and caveats in the protocol, all in the favour of the company.

4 I don't appreciate being bullied into voting for something just because there is the threat of random rostering.

5. I honestly think the trial should be carried on until the end of the summer to see how it holds up.

Anyone who thinks that by voting in the currently proposed system and then working on the company to improve it is kidding themselves.

No it won't. Read the document.

It will actually be 5/2/6 /3 while the GDOs are reclaimed, HOWEVER there will be a maximum of 5 FDPs during the six day block (i.e at least one day will have to be a rest day or CTB).

At the moment we work 6/3 ALL YEAR to earn our current leave. Is it really a problem to work 6/3 (but only work five) for five weeks to earn it now?

Why? If it's five days you don't go to work, what's the difference?

But I bet you'll be the first to complain if we DO go to random rostering!!

actually wizo, I've spent MORE time reading it than most, that's why I don't agree with it. You can wrap it up in all the spin you like, it doesn't work for me. Days off are NOT leave no matter what way you try and BS around it. The 2 days off between shift changes are another joke. The reality of 68hrs between duties does not lend itself to the current Easyjet culture and the p**s will be duly taken. As for 'reserve periods', when are we getting the jumbo's? that's what reserve periods are supposed to be for. Those in the BALPA cocoon can go ahead a vote it in but it won't do anything for future recruitment. I have yet to meet ANY pilot that is happy about this apart from the few council boys on here. A NO vote will not require a return to random rostering, instead it should require a return to negotiation and an opportunity to fix this mess up. It probably wouldn't even take much fixing but as it stands it is fundamentally flawed and should not be given a mandate.

Wizo,

I appreciate your support for the system but as has been said you cannot substitute GDOs for Leave - they are 2 seperate beasts. Those of us with kids need to keep GDO ( max 5 ) for the kids sports day, Xmas pageant, watch your kids in competitions on that weekend your working etc etc etc.
I happy to go to 5/4/5/2 but not with the restrictions being imposed.

Wizofoz,

Okay I've re-read the document and also Murray's technical document on the balpa website, and I'm sorry to say I'm still not convinced by the idea of the GDOs. 'Apples is apples and they ain't apples'

I'm a little confused why would I be the first to complain about random rostering?? What exactly are you trying to imply? I would hope there would be a tiny bit of negotiation after a no vote to straighten out the problem areas.

Fimbles, best you re-read the doc, unless tour kid's sportsday and Christmas pagent happen within the same 5 day block(plus wrap around days) you'll have to use the 3 GDO option, if so you forfeit the use of the 5GDO block.:confused:

fimbles,

What do you mean "Keep"? We don't get GDOs now. We get Request days off and would continue to do so under the new system.

orangetree,

Please explain how two days off between shift pattern changes in worse than NO days off between late-to-early now?



smellster,

There's been two years of negotiation up to this point. What makes you think there'll be any more?

Just a question for all. Is there any of you who would rather (unconditionally) work 6/3 than 5/4/5/2?

If not do you think we could get it without ANY give and take?

It's got to be a NO vote.

No matter how the likes of Col Klink and Flapsone try to defend their proposal to the rest of us, it is fundamentally c&@p!

They keep on refering to the fact that 6/3 was abused by rostering / crewing / management but do not seem to realise that their new 5/2/5/4 will/has the same loopholes already.

The 5/2/5/4 is certainly a matter of taste, some like earlies, some like lates some like the early finish & late start of day 4 or 5 in the old 6/3. So no matter what no-one will be happy.

But;-
1. Leave - how can they actually think to loose a block of leave? Being replaced by 5 GDO's, if accepted (which the company has a right to refuse). In other words we are likely never to get it.

2. Keep on about no more Flexi-days. So what about IDO's & DDO's (a flexi in disguise).

3. The 68 hour 2 day off in laughable, again read what it says in the document. Only guareeteed if you do an early on day 5. What if we don't as the company retain the right to roster us 4 earlies and 1 late / 3 earlies and 2 lates etc, hence no 68 hours.

4. The 'Standy Period' which in effect a month of random rostering with 8 days off. Although it has now been dressed up to be '3 weeks standby and 1 week transition'. And it is around 12 weeks a year (not 6+2 a Flaps1 said, and he's a Rep!!!)

At the start of all this the joint BALPA and Company memo said less fatigue, more days off and more productive;-
Less fatigue - very debatable as its a trial been carried out in the winter months (less flights and particularly less late/night flights) and also with 'enhanced' bases to make it look good.
More days off - yes during the roster period that has been achieved but only by taking the leave off us. So now we actually have exactly the same amount of leave and days off as before .. just now its more days off and less leave (Spin).
More productive - well my question is if it so more productive why are we being screwed for the leave? If its a much better system we can have more time off. Maybe the company should employ a few more staff in rostering and the problem would be solved.

5/2/54 fine, but not with the protocols as they are and NOT with the loss of leave.

The CC keep on about 'otherwise' the return to Random Rostering, should BALPA for once actually earn their money and not allow this to happen. They keep on about joining to the 'hangers on' as solidarity of the workforce is the only way they can get thing's through. But they have the vote already, they are the pilot's spoke people and do nothing except to ask for more money.
If they don't pull the finger out soon they will loose their postion as many work mates I speak too will be resigning from what they see as a toothless union that pacifiy's the CC with an extra 2.5% (trainers) payrise and free trips to the USA to look at South West while they screw over their work mates. There is so much bad feeling for the way this debacle has been done.

For the company, if you bring this in you will destroy your workforce, with your expanding capacity you can always fill the RHS with someone who will pay CTC, but your problem is the LHS. We are generally older, have kids and want our quality time off and need our leave. Also your sickness % will soar, I can guarantee.

VOTE NO

:ok:

Pete O'Tube

If you are a Balpa member - why post this here? Use the Balpa forum and ALL of your points will be answered.

If you are not a Balpa member - I won't waste my best typing finger!

Actually I am a BALPA member.

You and your CC do not answer questions you do not want to hear!

Your best finger typing ... that just show's the attitude and arrogance of our 'Pilot Voice". One more resignation for you!!

And anothet thing on Random Rostering. It is not really productive for the company to roster me for other bases, as will be with the expanding network, in my 5 days on. This would only generate 3 days work. But in the Random I can work 7 days hence 5 productive days.

So, in reality (not wearing those rose tinted specks that are for the CC) I work 5/2/5/4 in my home base then spend my Random block away from home.:ugh:

The company won't miss atrick, you have

New rosters...I'll believe that when I see it. We've got to have the worst rosters in the Industry!!!

I would not wish to intrude on a personal ej debate, but the topic of rostering is a common one.
Firstly, lets dispell the rumour that all RYR pilots are happy campers with 5 earlies 3 off 5 lates etc. NOT TRUE!

Now, I've worked for various airlines under different national FTL's, covering both long, short & LoCo operations. The one common aspect was getting the pound of flesh out of the crews. However, there were different methods attempted; one ot two were excellent; object achieved in a way that everyone was fundamentaly happy. IT CAN BE DONE.

Where there was a culture of dislike of flight crew in general, the enviroment & attitude was one of screw the crews as much as possible. Efficiency had nothing to do with it. Thus, the minimum of 8 days was given. These were rostered first and then the gaps were filled in with duties. It didn't matter how those duties were filled, rosterer could show that crews were on duty for the max number of days. You could go to work, be on duty for 12 hours and achieve 1 sector; you could fly 2 sectors and have a duty of 4 hours; thus 3 crews would handle 1 a/c in a day, sometimes even 4 crews. You could burn the miles in taxis, but you had been on duty. Productivity & efficiency did not rule the game. Sir John Harvey-Jones would have had apoplexy!

At 1 leading LoCo they had a budget of +/-225 available flying duty days pa. This was 365 - 104 days off - 28 days leave - 6 days for sim and refreshers - 2 days sick. Now the average day was 6 hours stick time. 900-/- 6 = 150. That would require 75 SBY's in 10.5 months. 7 per month, if all flying days were efficiently productive.
Don't harp on about 5/4/5/2 etc. just look at the efficiency of your duties. I can guarantee that there will be far more crews on SBY than necessary, to guard days off not being more than minimum, and look how many 2 sector or taxi days you do. If you're going to get up at 0400 anyway, why not do a full days work and have an extra day off????
If all other shift workers in the industry do 4 on 4 off why not flgiht crews?? AH, but then crews are not shift workers.
If you work to the max, daily, you run out of hours after 9 months. That means that for 9 months you've been tired, and then the company runs out fo crews. If you work 4/4 you will not be tired and not run out of crews. 2 earlies 2 lates means a full night's sleep in between. The late can finsh at whatever time and the ealry can start before 0600 because there will always be 3 local nights. 4 earlies 4 off, 4 lates etc has the same safe guard.The 900hr pa rate is supposed to be even throughout the year; it is an annual rate, not 100 for 9 months then nothing. CP371 is supposed to have a spirit and using it to the max is not it. 4/4 will give a steady rate and plenty of SBY. It ain't rocket science.
Clear you minds and be radical. Remember, what you construct now you will be stuck with for a very long time.

Good luck, but a little more imagination could work wonders. It should be the one uniting aspect within any company. The proposal you have now doesn't sound like it.

Think outside the box.

P.S. You could even throw the company a bone and allow a certain number of flexi days, i.e. the 1st or last of the 4 off to be used when s*#t hits the inevitable fan occaisionally: limited of course.

P.P.S. Becareful what you wish for; you may get it and then not be able to get rid of it.
As usual the crews are fighting for quality days off. There are various methods to achieve quality time off. (CAP371 stipulates that any 'scheme' allows for this!!!) As usual the company is striving for prodcutivity. The two are perfectly compatible. It's when the company has an anti-crew, jealous attitude that the trouble starts. catching a few crumbs will not achieve what you are after. A few more predictable days off, or GDO's, is but a drop in the ocean in achieving the true goal of reasonable life style while producing the goods. Others have done it!