Scandalous Pay
 

I've just heard from a mate of mine that Air South West are paying new FO's £16K (yes sixteen). I remember years ago when I was trying to break into the business that Citiflyer paid about this (8 / 10 years ago?) and they were the probably one of the worst payers in the industry.

Now all these years later companies are getting away with shocking p**s take T's and C's like these. In real terms this is a MASSIVE fall.

I know the wannabees are gonna blither on about how they would fly a Dash 8 for nought but my point is that the rot is well and truelly here to stay.

With the Lo Co's now getting virtually everyone to pay for type ratings and accepting inferior conditions (because they are obviously so so grateful to be allowed to flog themselves to death) I am at a point of total despair for what was once such a great industry.

starting pay for ryanair f/o £9,900 p.a.
half duty pay for six months.
paid equivalent £35,000 for rating.
throw in a few grand paid for accom. and living expenses.
some guys £140,000 in debt from ab-initio stage.

flew with a guy recently and gave him money for food,he was totally broke and i could not but feel sorry for him.this is downright immoral.hope the greedy fat cat b******s choke on their s**t.

I believe NWA is still offering less than $12,500/annum for F/O's. What's the problem? Can't buy petrol to get to work in UK???

Unfortunately this seems to becoming the norm.
Until there is a real pilot shortage airlines will be able to hire pilots with these cra**y T and C's.
There are still lots of low hour pilots and recently graduated students who are happy to prostitute themselves to the airlines, so that they can get their feet on the first rung of the ladder.
And whilst the bean counters keep getting away with it they will, makes good business sense to them.
There will have to be a real good turnaround in the pilot job market for it to stop happening.

Sounds like it's going the way of aircraft maintenance...good luck!

One point that is missed by these low paying companies is that if you are sat on the flight deck worrying about how to pay the mortgage/rent/rates/tax on car/child maintenance etc etc etc, you aren't concentrating on ther job in hand.

The next thing is having to work in KingDonalds on days off to make ends meet, thus not being properly rested.

Doesn't take a rocket scientist to work out what happens next. Erosion of pay and conditions in any industry is an investment in disaster engineering.

In the same way I wouldn't join my job now on what they are paying recruits, it is the same reason I didn't career change and do what I really want to do and fly commercially. Flying is great fun, but it aint worth living below the breadline for.

Lo Cos!
 

Redline, just which Low Cost airlines make pilots pay for their ratings? Don't tar them all with the Ryanair brush. Just what is the so called 'breadline' anyway? I take a little less than the industry average and live reasonably well, thank you.

The breadline is what is accepted as the 'poverty' line. I am not talking abject, but the level where the benefits system kicks in to support families (free school meals, tax credits, income support etc)

Ultimately, its what suits the individual. doesn't make it right though.

rubik101 , not only Jet2 is following the FR story...more to come...
I am working on contracts since many years and received a call some 2 weeks ago from a not so unknown outfit and received the offer to join for 6 months as a captain on 737 with a taxfree salary of about €2500....now that spilled my coffee.... :mad: :* :mad:

Rubik101,

Ryanair,
Easyjet,
bmiBaby,
Jet2
Air Asia.....

Some might not be all in an upfront payment, but training bonds and reduced salaries mean essentially you are paying for your rating - and a lot require you to take a bond in your name, so the risk is on your back. Not a good market trend.

BigAir

How much do you think a new F/O worth?
 

It seems to me that one should be please to be flying a Dash 8 or whatever and pleased to be able to sit in the right seat and learn something from the Commander in the left seat who has vastly more experience. Never heard of "apprentiship?"

It is not so many years ago that as a Captain flying a two crew DHC-6 Twin Otter the Captains were making just £7500 p.a with an extra £1000 p.a allowance for being in Aberdeen (which was rather expensive)

Your time will come when you will move into a left seat (if you listen and learn) and when that time comes you will be remunerated justly as the Aircraft Commander, meanwhile accept the fact that you are the co-pilot not the commander. If you do not want to work for this kind of money then I suggest either another career or perhaps do what many of my friends and colleagues do in US, take a part time job to subsidise your "apprentiship".

Nobody forces you to become a pilot, it it a llittle like becoming a Priest, takes fortitude, application, hard work and dedication for which you will be paid little in the begining. The priest however will always be on crap money so hang on in there and when you are sat in the left seat of your 777 or whatever remember the guy sat next to you on your right is "poor" so buy him a coffee and donut from time to time.

A newly qualified doctor is paid less than you has far more responsibility than you and works longer hours so quit moaning and either "shape up or ship out"!

Mercy...Don't miss the point..The 'new' F/O is willing to do his stewardship-aprentice at the drop of a hat-just give him a chance...There was never a question of Captaincy...But remember the North American(world) benifits from PRODUCTIVETYand the lowly new F/O allows the aircraft to operate ergo give him his due.....he paid a chuck of money for his training and in the eyes of the Fed's he's legal to earn the Co' a profit...Now let's have a little recognition of that Fact,without him the aircraft stays chocked-the Co's make money-share the wealth to a 'living'allowaance....:oh:

Well here's one guy that will never be paying any of the aforementioned airlines 'up front' for a type rating.

That having been said, why wouldn't they try and get away with it if they can? it's down to us not to do it.

Another old news item...
 

As long as pilots are willing to work for substandard wages(and there will always be a few), the marketplace will decide the salary...like it or not.

This ain't likely to change anytime soon, irrespective of a few here who absolutely think they are worth more, but in actual fact, the airline companies will decide, you can be sure.

Oh yes, I can hear it now, lets go overseas (EK perhaps)...whoops, that won't work...low(er) salaries there too, plus more duty days required.

Like it or lump it.

Suspect most will take their lumps, and hope for better days.

Oh yes...'pilot shortage'.

In your dreams.:sad: :uhoh:

Its easy to talk 'Oh no Id never pay for a rating' try being on the bread line with mouths to feed and no job....you would do whatever neccessary. Its easy to talk from an ivory tower.

I have never paid for a rating however ........

Glad to see an FO is so highly rated in your estimations MAli, why not just have him sat down the back since by the sounds of it he wouldnt have a worthwhile comment anyway. Your a dinosaur!:yuk:

411A is quite right.

Nobody holds a gun to your head to make you work for Ryanair et al for subsistence money. I would think that any half-intelligent person would never consider a job where they have to beg for food (especially if they have a family).

This nonsense will continue as long as pilots allow it.

There may not be a pilot shortage at the moment, but there might be one in Ryanair if their pilots ever develop a backbone...

I believe it is a distortion of the market.

A couple of airlines discovered that they could reduce their wage costs and still comply with the letter of the law by making a widespread practice of strapping 200 hour licence holders into the right hand seat. Better still they could push their luck by getting these inexperienced co-pilots to pay for their training themselves. Provided the Captains continued to compensate for the experience shortfall in the cockpit and fingers crossed nothing went wrong, then more profit and bigger bonuses.

In order not to be commercially disadvantaged by this action, the practice spread through other carriers and in some West european countries is now almost universal in its acceptance. The previous sources of experienced co-pilots such as the military and smaller commercial operators will now find that their pilots are forced to reduce their expectations to the level of the 200 hour(ers) in order to compete in this new market.

Unfortunetaly it will take a serious incident to occur before certain regulatory authorities sit up and take notice, and even then it will be the insurance industry that is likely to correct this practice, proving once again that free markets abhor distortions

Supply and demand,
accountants and insurance companies, its the same as any other business why does anyone ever think it is any different? (please flame away if I am wrong I'd happily go up in smoke on this one!)
T2

I would like to comment to the posting of Bealzebub, that here in Holland, where buying your type rating is invented, the military guys get their civilian education (Type Rating) funded by the Dutch governement.
The redundant Orion people were parked at Martinair and are payed by us (the Dutch tax payer), including me, a jobseeking civilian aviator.
I also would like to add that I am payed by the Dutch tax payer, to look for a job and support my family.
A portion of my tax goes in the typerating of these guys, but then again I get my unemployment benefits also from the Dutch governement.

A strange world we live in,
Cheers to all.

Shame there is never outrage on these pages for what airport staff get for doing various jobs at airports that keep the aircraft in the air. It makes the pilots appear to be a self centred lot who care about nothing else apart from how much money they can make.

Quote:

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Shame there is never outrage on these pages for what airport staff get for doing various jobs at airports that keep the aircraft in the air. It makes the pilots appear to be a self centred lot who care about nothing else apart from how much money they can make.
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Pass the can opener.......

Anyone earning less than 10K in the UK would surely be entitled to some kind of state benefit. Pilots on welfare would make an interesting news story, and perhaps the publicity might make the droves of wannabees think again before joining an overcrowded profession.

Supply & demand, market forces yeah, true but there are other economic forces too - ever heard of unions?

It's your industry, it's in your hands, it's your responsibility.

When other members of the airport staff are forced to pay at least £40,000 for their basic qualifications and then the employers demand that job/type specific training must be paid for by the employee to the tune of £20,000 plus - then when the airport staff are offered promotion and have to pay for the training that goes with that promotion then please feel free to come back and whinge.

Do honey truck drivers have to pay for their own training?

There's another point to be made here. You've been talking about the airlines who are hiring new FO's on subsistence salaries, but there are still quite a few Companies out there with some sense of integrity who are prepared to pay a reasonable starting salary.

The company I work for starts FO's (Turbo-prop) on around £23000. Not a fortune, but at least you can afford some kind of a lifestyle.

There are a few who pay more.

The companies being complained about here may be taking advantage of an opportunity to make more profit on the backs of desperate people who are very anxious to justify all the money they've spent on buying a career. But ultimately these managers are immoral, callous and cynical in their attitudes, and people have long memories!

There will always be the time when these same managers will be asking staff to 'pull out the stops' to save their bacon.

Payback time?

Interesting subject I must say. It makes me feel quite fortunate to be flying a turboprop (ATR72) for £23000 per annum however, there is no flight pay so no extras can be taken home on top of that. Except for night mail when we get £10 after tax.

The potential for salary increase does exists in the industry through promotion or moving onto a jet however starting salaries are very low on most turboprops for people who have often spent over £60000 to get themselves there.

Where I live, I have friends who are admin assistants, nurses etc who earn almost as much as I do with no debt and many more benefits such as private health care and more leave. Obviously their salaries are unlikely to increase anywhere near as much as mine in the next ten years. However, it does indicate how low starting turboprop salaries (and lack of benefits.) tend it be in comparison to many other jobs.

For Batty
 

Glad to see an FO is so highly rated in your estimations MAli, why not just have him sat down the back since by the sounds of it he wouldnt have a worthwhile comment anyway. Your a dinosaur!

++++++++++

Very probably not! :D

In the states dont some FOs pay to work?

At least it aint that bad - yet

I reckon Avaition is going the same way as manufacturing
..many goods are manufactured in E Europe.. cheaper
Reduced labour costs...

On that point I bet some Czeck or Slovak (JAA) pilots would regard the salaries quoted above as quite good....

411A is right is just good old fashioned economics and the JAA
rules are making it worse

1/ More costly ratings
2/ More time to complete
3/ More difficult to complete
4/ Importing pilots into UK from other countries...

Only 25 PPL IRs issues in a country with 30,000 PPLs last year

Safety is no accident...ha ha dont make me laugh

Its about vested interest and cost reductions..

The continued degrading of salaries will come back and bite the bean counters, especially in a small turbo prop companies - as pay goes down, so does morale, and people who dont feel valued by the company aint going to go out of the way to make sure the a/c stays servicable, gets back to base, come in on days off for example.

also, who the hell do they think they are going to promote? all internal pilots are going to be 200hrs, not staying for more than a year, so they will have to take DEP. Which means they are only just going to get people scraping in on the minmums or instructing backgounds etc. So there isnt going to be much experience "up front". There is a serious safety issue here.

The fuel truck drivers and nearly everyone else at the airport is paid more than an FO in my company.

£16500 is not an acceptable wage. it is below what the average graduate would recieve - take into account that a lot of these guys comming out of oxford have a degree or two themselves.

Shame on the beancounters for letting this happen. I didnt come into aviation for the money, but i do demand a fair wage for the job I do.

CC

Er...Nope

On the other hand our esteemed friends to the east, the Slovaks aren't JAA yet. They are sort of....well, they smoke but don't inhale if ya know what I mean:}

BigAir,
You dont pay for your own type rating at EZY, I presume you are refering to the TRSS scheme.
The TRSS scheme is whereby the bond is in your name rahter than the companys but organised by the company, the only difference been if you fail your conversion then you pick up the bill...
Now I didnt say I agreed with that practise...

The Sutton Harbour Group, who own Air Southwest have just announced the Group Interim Results.

Group turnover is nearly three times that recorded a year ago.
Operating profit is up 23.4%.
Earnings per share have grown by 22.8%.
A dividend of 1.1p per share will be paid to shareholders, an increase of 22%.

Meanwhile on the same day the new Flight Crew Terms and Conditions were announced.

New First Officers will join on a salary of £16,480, a decrease of 25.1%.
Year one Captains salary has fallen from £41,000 to £37,595.

That will do the about the same for morale, as a years supply of Ginsters sarnies!

I heard from a friend flying in Greece that new FOs(on B737) salary is 1500 EUR per month minus the cost of training which is deducted from the monthly salary over a period of three years I think ! so average FO salary is approaching 1000 EUR per month !
come on !! Capt 's average salary is 3000 EUR per month !!
How much lower can it get !!!!!??????!!!!:{

Bring back national service and get these low hours pilots in the military!!!!!!!!!

Good pay, good flying, good chance of dying.

Hey I'm a poet and I didn't even.....

Pay and Conditions
 

Oh dear - we've been rumbled.
The pay and conditions are to do, I think, with the fact the the general public (and Airline Companies) have realised that pilots/aircrew are not above the average as workers or human beings. Flying is a job and needs a skill to perform that job. This applies to most other jobs. The skill requires a certain aptitude. This applies to most other jobs. Not everyone has the aptitude and cannot be trained to be a pilot. This applies to most other jobs. I think that we have to recognise that the days of the big salaries/long layovers/relaxed working life are over. This also applies to most other jobs.
I have the advantage of being at the end of a 43 year flying career; military and civil, and I have enjoyed all of it. The world changes and we have to have the courage to change with it and work to change what we can about our working conditions (and salaries). If you want to do it then do it, if not then don't.

how were those 43 years?any highlights.

Unfortunately the travelling public have been conditioned to think that paying anymore than £30 return for a 1 hour flight is expensive.

I flew from STN to CPH yesterday with Easyjet. The total cost of the trip was £62.99 - a bargain especially as it included taxes etc. However this was one of the more expensive fares on the plane as I booked it less than a week ago.

People will quite happily pay £70 return for a 1 hour train journey or £25 per day in car parking at LHR or whatever that 15 minute train to Paddington rips one off by these days but try charging more than tuppence for the air fare and there is uproar.

Unfortunately it is a highly "sexy" industry that we operate in where every tom, dick and harry wants to be and make money. One or two Low cost carriers have made a success of it and now everyone wnat a slice of the cake happily cutting their own and everyone elses throats in the process.

Whilst I would not make any friends by saying so the only way to avoid earning peanuts as an F/O is not to work for the carriers that pay peanuts.

Batty
 

Why is telling it the truth being a dinosaur?

. . and anyway it should be - "You're a dinosaur!"

For goodness sake at least write English! :ok:

M Ali: Yawn.....:zzz: that was weeks ago and you already replied trying to bait me....Your oviously slow and lumbering, another dinosaur trait. Roll on the next ice age and EXTINCTION

And of note isnt WIMIN spelt WOMEN, and its not 'WIMIN AN BEER' its 'AND BEER'. DRIVER AIRFRAMES shouldnt that be AIRFRAMES DRIVER. Unless of course your one of the guys/WIMIN in the tug on pushback. Ahhhh it all becomes clear at last....:ok:

Geez we give you a perfectly good language and what do you do??? TRASH it....:hmm: :p

If all the above figures for F/O salaries are correct, why then is there a never ending supply of self sponsored frozen ATPLs?
Surely if one's motivation is a love of flying rather than making money it would be better to pursue a career that could finance the flying rather than choose airline/corporate flying itself.
I am thinking of the number of people in the medical/legal/financial professsions in the US who own private Mustangs and such like aircraft.
The willingness for people to self-sponsor and buy type ratings is obviously a gift from heaven for airline financial directors in the UK.
Do the UK FTOs give genuine advice on career prospects when signing up new students into their training programmes?

Today if you want to become a pilot you need to fork out around £150,000 (this includes a type rating on either A320 or B737). Count it will take you around 2 years to complete all the training. After this if you are lucky you get a job or else you can fork out another £25,000 to do 300 hrs on type to then get a job.

So let's say you worked hard for five years selling cars and bought a couple of houses that appreciated, you sold the housese and you suddenly have £230,000 to use for your pilot training and to live off of for two years while you study hard. At the end of it all there you are flying a B737 for a low cost airline, earning £1,800/month doing 95 hrs flying per month. After a while the novelty will wear off.

Alternatively, a story I hear recently of a guy that after the 5 years as a car sales man and a bit of property investing bought a franchise of an Australian company called Action International and is doing business coaching from home. This investment cost him £15,000 (fifteenthousand pounds) and after 6 months he's earning over £20,000 (twentythousand pounds) a month. This guy has now bought his own airplane and having fun!

This makes me wonder out of the above two people who is the clever one???????