Scandalous Pay
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Join Date: Oct 1999
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Scandalous Pay
I've just heard from a mate of mine that Air South West are paying new FO's £16K (yes sixteen). I remember years ago when I was trying to break into the business that Citiflyer paid about this (8 / 10 years ago?) and they were the probably one of the worst payers in the industry.
Now all these years later companies are getting away with shocking p**s take T's and C's like these. In real terms this is a MASSIVE fall.
I know the wannabees are gonna blither on about how they would fly a Dash 8 for nought but my point is that the rot is well and truelly here to stay.
With the Lo Co's now getting virtually everyone to pay for type ratings and accepting inferior conditions (because they are obviously so so grateful to be allowed to flog themselves to death) I am at a point of total despair for what was once such a great industry.
Now all these years later companies are getting away with shocking p**s take T's and C's like these. In real terms this is a MASSIVE fall.
I know the wannabees are gonna blither on about how they would fly a Dash 8 for nought but my point is that the rot is well and truelly here to stay.
With the Lo Co's now getting virtually everyone to pay for type ratings and accepting inferior conditions (because they are obviously so so grateful to be allowed to flog themselves to death) I am at a point of total despair for what was once such a great industry.
Join Date: Oct 2004
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starting pay for ryanair f/o £9,900 p.a.
half duty pay for six months.
paid equivalent £35,000 for rating.
throw in a few grand paid for accom. and living expenses.
some guys £140,000 in debt from ab-initio stage.
flew with a guy recently and gave him money for food,he was totally broke and i could not but feel sorry for him.this is downright immoral.hope the greedy fat cat b******s choke on their s**t.
half duty pay for six months.
paid equivalent £35,000 for rating.
throw in a few grand paid for accom. and living expenses.
some guys £140,000 in debt from ab-initio stage.
flew with a guy recently and gave him money for food,he was totally broke and i could not but feel sorry for him.this is downright immoral.hope the greedy fat cat b******s choke on their s**t.
Join Date: Jan 2004
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Unfortunately this seems to becoming the norm.
Until there is a real pilot shortage airlines will be able to hire pilots with these cra**y T and C's.
There are still lots of low hour pilots and recently graduated students who are happy to prostitute themselves to the airlines, so that they can get their feet on the first rung of the ladder.
And whilst the bean counters keep getting away with it they will, makes good business sense to them.
There will have to be a real good turnaround in the pilot job market for it to stop happening.
Until there is a real pilot shortage airlines will be able to hire pilots with these cra**y T and C's.
There are still lots of low hour pilots and recently graduated students who are happy to prostitute themselves to the airlines, so that they can get their feet on the first rung of the ladder.
And whilst the bean counters keep getting away with it they will, makes good business sense to them.
There will have to be a real good turnaround in the pilot job market for it to stop happening.
Join Date: Sep 2000
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One point that is missed by these low paying companies is that if you are sat on the flight deck worrying about how to pay the mortgage/rent/rates/tax on car/child maintenance etc etc etc, you aren't concentrating on ther job in hand.
The next thing is having to work in KingDonalds on days off to make ends meet, thus not being properly rested.
Doesn't take a rocket scientist to work out what happens next. Erosion of pay and conditions in any industry is an investment in disaster engineering.
In the same way I wouldn't join my job now on what they are paying recruits, it is the same reason I didn't career change and do what I really want to do and fly commercially. Flying is great fun, but it aint worth living below the breadline for.
The next thing is having to work in KingDonalds on days off to make ends meet, thus not being properly rested.
Doesn't take a rocket scientist to work out what happens next. Erosion of pay and conditions in any industry is an investment in disaster engineering.
In the same way I wouldn't join my job now on what they are paying recruits, it is the same reason I didn't career change and do what I really want to do and fly commercially. Flying is great fun, but it aint worth living below the breadline for.
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Lo Cos!
Redline, just which Low Cost airlines make pilots pay for their ratings? Don't tar them all with the Ryanair brush. Just what is the so called 'breadline' anyway? I take a little less than the industry average and live reasonably well, thank you.
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The breadline is what is accepted as the 'poverty' line. I am not talking abject, but the level where the benefits system kicks in to support families (free school meals, tax credits, income support etc)
Ultimately, its what suits the individual. doesn't make it right though.
Ultimately, its what suits the individual. doesn't make it right though.
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rubik101 , not only Jet2 is following the FR story...more to come...
I am working on contracts since many years and received a call some 2 weeks ago from a not so unknown outfit and received the offer to join for 6 months as a captain on 737 with a taxfree salary of about €2500....now that spilled my coffee....
I am working on contracts since many years and received a call some 2 weeks ago from a not so unknown outfit and received the offer to join for 6 months as a captain on 737 with a taxfree salary of about €2500....now that spilled my coffee....
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Rubik101,
Ryanair,
Easyjet,
bmiBaby,
Jet2
Air Asia.....
Some might not be all in an upfront payment, but training bonds and reduced salaries mean essentially you are paying for your rating - and a lot require you to take a bond in your name, so the risk is on your back. Not a good market trend.
BigAir
Ryanair,
Easyjet,
bmiBaby,
Jet2
Air Asia.....
Some might not be all in an upfront payment, but training bonds and reduced salaries mean essentially you are paying for your rating - and a lot require you to take a bond in your name, so the risk is on your back. Not a good market trend.
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How much do you think a new F/O worth?
It seems to me that one should be please to be flying a Dash 8 or whatever and pleased to be able to sit in the right seat and learn something from the Commander in the left seat who has vastly more experience. Never heard of "apprentiship?"
It is not so many years ago that as a Captain flying a two crew DHC-6 Twin Otter the Captains were making just £7500 p.a with an extra £1000 p.a allowance for being in Aberdeen (which was rather expensive)
Your time will come when you will move into a left seat (if you listen and learn) and when that time comes you will be remunerated justly as the Aircraft Commander, meanwhile accept the fact that you are the co-pilot not the commander. If you do not want to work for this kind of money then I suggest either another career or perhaps do what many of my friends and colleagues do in US, take a part time job to subsidise your "apprentiship".
Nobody forces you to become a pilot, it it a llittle like becoming a Priest, takes fortitude, application, hard work and dedication for which you will be paid little in the begining. The priest however will always be on crap money so hang on in there and when you are sat in the left seat of your 777 or whatever remember the guy sat next to you on your right is "poor" so buy him a coffee and donut from time to time.
A newly qualified doctor is paid less than you has far more responsibility than you and works longer hours so quit moaning and either "shape up or ship out"!
It is not so many years ago that as a Captain flying a two crew DHC-6 Twin Otter the Captains were making just £7500 p.a with an extra £1000 p.a allowance for being in Aberdeen (which was rather expensive)
Your time will come when you will move into a left seat (if you listen and learn) and when that time comes you will be remunerated justly as the Aircraft Commander, meanwhile accept the fact that you are the co-pilot not the commander. If you do not want to work for this kind of money then I suggest either another career or perhaps do what many of my friends and colleagues do in US, take a part time job to subsidise your "apprentiship".
Nobody forces you to become a pilot, it it a llittle like becoming a Priest, takes fortitude, application, hard work and dedication for which you will be paid little in the begining. The priest however will always be on crap money so hang on in there and when you are sat in the left seat of your 777 or whatever remember the guy sat next to you on your right is "poor" so buy him a coffee and donut from time to time.
A newly qualified doctor is paid less than you has far more responsibility than you and works longer hours so quit moaning and either "shape up or ship out"!
Join Date: Apr 2004
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Mercy...Don't miss the point..The 'new' F/O is willing to do his stewardship-aprentice at the drop of a hat-just give him a chance...There was never a question of Captaincy...But remember the North American(world) benifits from PRODUCTIVETYand the lowly new F/O allows the aircraft to operate ergo give him his due.....he paid a chuck of money for his training and in the eyes of the Fed's he's legal to earn the Co' a profit...Now let's have a little recognition of that Fact,without him the aircraft stays chocked-the Co's make money-share the wealth to a 'living'allowaance....
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Well here's one guy that will never be paying any of the aforementioned airlines 'up front' for a type rating.
That having been said, why wouldn't they try and get away with it if they can? it's down to us not to do it.
That having been said, why wouldn't they try and get away with it if they can? it's down to us not to do it.
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Another old news item...
As long as pilots are willing to work for substandard wages(and there will always be a few), the marketplace will decide the salary...like it or not.
This ain't likely to change anytime soon, irrespective of a few here who absolutely think they are worth more, but in actual fact, the airline companies will decide, you can be sure.
Oh yes, I can hear it now, lets go overseas (EK perhaps)...whoops, that won't work...low(er) salaries there too, plus more duty days required.
Like it or lump it.
Suspect most will take their lumps, and hope for better days.
Oh yes...'pilot shortage'.
In your dreams.
This ain't likely to change anytime soon, irrespective of a few here who absolutely think they are worth more, but in actual fact, the airline companies will decide, you can be sure.
Oh yes, I can hear it now, lets go overseas (EK perhaps)...whoops, that won't work...low(er) salaries there too, plus more duty days required.
Like it or lump it.
Suspect most will take their lumps, and hope for better days.
Oh yes...'pilot shortage'.
In your dreams.
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Its easy to talk 'Oh no Id never pay for a rating' try being on the bread line with mouths to feed and no job....you would do whatever neccessary. Its easy to talk from an ivory tower.
I have never paid for a rating however ........
Glad to see an FO is so highly rated in your estimations MAli, why not just have him sat down the back since by the sounds of it he wouldnt have a worthwhile comment anyway. Your a dinosaur!
I have never paid for a rating however ........
Glad to see an FO is so highly rated in your estimations MAli, why not just have him sat down the back since by the sounds of it he wouldnt have a worthwhile comment anyway. Your a dinosaur!
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411A is quite right.
Nobody holds a gun to your head to make you work for Ryanair et al for subsistence money. I would think that any half-intelligent person would never consider a job where they have to beg for food (especially if they have a family).
This nonsense will continue as long as pilots allow it.
There may not be a pilot shortage at the moment, but there might be one in Ryanair if their pilots ever develop a backbone...
Nobody holds a gun to your head to make you work for Ryanair et al for subsistence money. I would think that any half-intelligent person would never consider a job where they have to beg for food (especially if they have a family).
This nonsense will continue as long as pilots allow it.
There may not be a pilot shortage at the moment, but there might be one in Ryanair if their pilots ever develop a backbone...
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I believe it is a distortion of the market.
A couple of airlines discovered that they could reduce their wage costs and still comply with the letter of the law by making a widespread practice of strapping 200 hour licence holders into the right hand seat. Better still they could push their luck by getting these inexperienced co-pilots to pay for their training themselves. Provided the Captains continued to compensate for the experience shortfall in the cockpit and fingers crossed nothing went wrong, then more profit and bigger bonuses.
In order not to be commercially disadvantaged by this action, the practice spread through other carriers and in some West european countries is now almost universal in its acceptance. The previous sources of experienced co-pilots such as the military and smaller commercial operators will now find that their pilots are forced to reduce their expectations to the level of the 200 hour(ers) in order to compete in this new market.
Unfortunetaly it will take a serious incident to occur before certain regulatory authorities sit up and take notice, and even then it will be the insurance industry that is likely to correct this practice, proving once again that free markets abhor distortions
A couple of airlines discovered that they could reduce their wage costs and still comply with the letter of the law by making a widespread practice of strapping 200 hour licence holders into the right hand seat. Better still they could push their luck by getting these inexperienced co-pilots to pay for their training themselves. Provided the Captains continued to compensate for the experience shortfall in the cockpit and fingers crossed nothing went wrong, then more profit and bigger bonuses.
In order not to be commercially disadvantaged by this action, the practice spread through other carriers and in some West european countries is now almost universal in its acceptance. The previous sources of experienced co-pilots such as the military and smaller commercial operators will now find that their pilots are forced to reduce their expectations to the level of the 200 hour(ers) in order to compete in this new market.
Unfortunetaly it will take a serious incident to occur before certain regulatory authorities sit up and take notice, and even then it will be the insurance industry that is likely to correct this practice, proving once again that free markets abhor distortions
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Supply and demand,
accountants and insurance companies, its the same as any other business why does anyone ever think it is any different? (please flame away if I am wrong I'd happily go up in smoke on this one!)
T2
accountants and insurance companies, its the same as any other business why does anyone ever think it is any different? (please flame away if I am wrong I'd happily go up in smoke on this one!)
T2
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I would like to comment to the posting of Bealzebub, that here in Holland, where buying your type rating is invented, the military guys get their civilian education (Type Rating) funded by the Dutch governement.
The redundant Orion people were parked at Martinair and are payed by us (the Dutch tax payer), including me, a jobseeking civilian aviator.
I also would like to add that I am payed by the Dutch tax payer, to look for a job and support my family.
A portion of my tax goes in the typerating of these guys, but then again I get my unemployment benefits also from the Dutch governement.
A strange world we live in,
Cheers to all.
The redundant Orion people were parked at Martinair and are payed by us (the Dutch tax payer), including me, a jobseeking civilian aviator.
I also would like to add that I am payed by the Dutch tax payer, to look for a job and support my family.
A portion of my tax goes in the typerating of these guys, but then again I get my unemployment benefits also from the Dutch governement.
A strange world we live in,
Cheers to all.
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Shame there is never outrage on these pages for what airport staff get for doing various jobs at airports that keep the aircraft in the air. It makes the pilots appear to be a self centred lot who care about nothing else apart from how much money they can make.
