Jet2/Channel Express
 

i've had a look at pilot recruitment on the channex website and it seems to imply that everybody has to pay for their 737 type rating - okay, you get it back but yr salary is reduced so you do actually end up paying for it one way or another

can this really be true? even in easyjet, you only pay if you are inexperienced

for an experienced guy/girl, £20k up front seems a bit steep, particularly bearing in mind the modest longterm pay & conditions that follow

have i got this right?
is it negotiable?
will they get many takers?

The answers to your questions are:

yes
doubt it
yes

You will always pay !
 

Unfortunatly the boys with the rich daddys have wrecked the industry for us all with there determination to get ahead of the game by buying themselfs a type rating and over the past few years the beancounters have copped on to this and now we all have to pay.

People at one time would think that training bonds were unfair but free training balanced only by a commitment to work for an airline for two of three years must seem like a very good deal now !.

The lower pay to repay the training is always the best as you cant be taxed on what you have not been paid !.

After talking to a friend who works for Jet2 this is the deal as it was explained to me. The scheme applies to non-type rated pilots and is designed it would appear to expose Jet2 to zero risk (which begs the question why they have people enduring numerical,verbal reasoning and psychometric tests and then a simulator assessment with CTC).
You have to raise £20000 to pay for the rating. It's up to you how you raise the money. However any loan is in your name so if anything happens to Jet2 during the repayment period you're saddled with it. They only pay back £20000 over 3 years and not the interest on the loan which can be a substantial amount depending on the rate you manage to get (for example with a highish 9.9% APR you'll pay getting on £3200 in interest over 3 years). You are only employed by Channel Express/Jet2 once your licence is endorsed with the 737 so up to that point your on your own. You are not paid during training and if you're unfortunate enough not to pass the course they have no obligation to you.
Once employed you are on probationary salary for 2 months and then you are paid a substantially reduced salary for 3 years. Benefits such as private medical and loss of licence apply to captains only I believe.

Jet2 require captains at the moment. To illustrate how poor this deal is, a non-type rated captain after joining earns £49334 for the probation period then £53761 for 3 years. There is no sector pay.
When you compare this to the salaries and packages offered elsewhere in the "lo-cost" sector it would appear a no-brainer unless you're desperate (especially if you're a captain).

20K for a 737 "classic"!!!! :yuk: :yuk: :yuk:

Looking at the Manchester programme it looks as if Jet2 will have a low aircraft utilisation, but at least their schedule keeping should be better than some.

Does anyone know what the actual utilisation at Leeds is?

interesting..........

okay, suppose I AM desperate, would I enjoy Jet2?

BOH is a long haul from Liverpool just for an interview, just wondering about applying

From what i hear they are a good outfit, if your joining for the dosh its not for you!! compared with other lo co operators you don't work to hard, or so i'm told.

Cheers

Burt

.... And bear in mind that their aircraft are OOOLLLDDD 737 Classics (they bought six mid eighties vintage Ansett aircraft) that would have been very cheap. This defrays a lot of the low utilisation costs.

Visionary or scaremonger?
 

Maybe we shouldn't be so hard on Jet2 over its pay and conditions?

For example, next year Jet2 will be head-to-head with Wizz on BUD-MAN/LPL, and Wizz's manpower costs must be less than half of Jet2's. So the choice is, accept Jet2's pay and conditions or let Wizz and it's fellow mid-European airlines take ALL our UK livelihood away.

And where does it end? Britannia is paying well over double for a top-of-scale Captain compared with a Jet2 first-year Captain, if you take into account overtime, training, pension, more time off and other perks - and even MyTravel, traditionally a modest payer, isn't that far behind. So how will they and Monarch, First Choice and Thomas Cook survive five years hence? Not to mention BA shorthaul.

Not even easyJet is lo co these days. First year Captains on £80k+ (okay, they do have to work for it, but no harder than a mid-European would accept) and brand-new aircraft which have to keep moving to earn their lease costs - under attack on every route from new lo co start-ups who really are lo co.

Maybe Jet2 has it right - cheap pilots and cheap aircraft, neither of which cost much to have hanging around when there's not enough work to do. A few years down the line, Jet2 may be one of the few UK airlines that can afford to keep going. Particularly if they can keep up their legendary quality.

Better make hay while the sun shines!

This deal really is reasonable in this day and age. The world has changed, and companies like Britannia, oops, sorry - Thomsonfly - are living in the past. They will soon be ready for the taking, too.

Its only my view, which will be unpopular because it does not support the status que, but I am with the poster who warned of foreign competition (in this case Wizz), because unless Britain can adapt we may not get off the slippery declining slope.

Bear in mind that it wasn't long ago we did all sorts of things well in Britain. You can think of them as well as I can. But in nearly ALL the cases, we are doing less well now than we did. (We used to be big in the airline cargo world for instance.)

No one wants penury, least of all the employers, who want a happy and stable pilot force, but you just HAVE to compete, and that means that today one has to do some things a bit differently.

I wish Jet 2 well, and hope they can thrive. If so they will provide many pilots jobs for years to come. First of all, though, they have to survive.

good posts! i'm feeling much better about the 20k idea
how about a post from a jet2 pilot who's actually paid the 20k up front? how does it feel in hindsight?

Gentleman, what a load of b*ll*cks!!! it's not Britannia, easyJet etc that are living in the past. They're paying the going rate at the moment. If you choose to pay for your own training and accept a lower salary more fool you :{

You lot sound as if you've thrown in the towel, how low will you all be willing to let salaries go? Maybe you'll start paying them for work??? :uhoh:

Your attitude reeks of bend over and shaft me :\

Are BA, Air France, Lufthansa, Iberia, SAS, Britannia, easyJet, Air Berlin, HLX pilots etc etc etc just going to roll over and let reduced salaries happen? Should we adopt your attitude and lower ourselves to the lowest common denominator? I think not. :}

It's not Wizz Air and our new EU colleagues that are undermining salaries, it's the like of you paying for your own type ratings and willingly accepting lower salaries that is undermining not only the UK pilot workforce but also the pilot workforce across the EU. :(

I'm sure our colleagues in Eastern Europe are fighting for higher salaries, looking on with hope at ours and not thanking you for your defeatist attitudes. There is no reason for our salaries to go down to compete with their's. The likes of Wizz Air is already struggling, do you really think that a base at Leeds Bradford to compete with Jet2 is high on their list of priorities?!?!?:p

Show me another low cost start up from the new EU that is looking threatening to any of ours? Wizzair started with 40 million euros and is desperately looking for more capital.

One last thing gents, with your attitudes do not volunteer for the samaritans :ok:

Let me just get this right: it's o.k. for wannabee pilots to not take jobs and make a stand on self type ratings. And the aim of doing this is that all those pilots who already have jobs and earn lots of money can continue to earn lots of money.

If I was totally selfish I would have to agree but it would count me out for the Samaritans.

Flying Tom, no you've not got it right.

Bigbrutha
PM is expert at losing industrial tribunals and court cases. Most however are settled out of court with the winner sworn to secrecy, cannot think of one which he has won. As you say, outsiders have a rose-tinted view of the company, insiders know better. You'll never catch him in a dark alley though, too much of a crush!

Scottie
--------------

You wrote:
"I'm sure our colleagues in Eastern Europe are fighting for higher salaries, looking on with hope at ours and not thanking you for your defeatist attitudes. There is no reason for our salaries to go down to compete with their's. The likes of Wizz Air is already struggling, do you really think that a base at Leeds Bradford to compete with Jet2 is high on their list of priorities?!?!?"

--------------

There's EVERY reason for our salaries to go down! An EC pilot is priced according to where he lives but his airline will be able to fly anywhere in the EC. The lowest prices will be charged by the airlines that have the cheapest workforces, and these are where the customers will go - provided of course that quality and safety are acceptable, and there's no reason why they shouldn't be.

Wizz is only an example and any financial problems are irrelevant - if they don't operate, someone else will. They don't need a LBA base or indeed any base in Western Europe, they can operate their routes from the other end.

MyTravel's big cutback is apparently due to fleet rationalisation, but there might be a hidden agenda. To cover the fleet reduction, they will need to buy in a lot of capacity and (longterm) why not use cheap airlines from Central Europe? The plan could be to minimise the central expensive airline core, ie MyTravel Airways, and maximise the outsourcing. Saves money and allows maximum flexibility. Maybe the other tour operators will follow suit?

How can Britannia etc avoid attacks on the pay and conditions? It's all very well BALPA refusing to allow them, but at the end of the day their product will be too expensive for the marketplace. And what then? A final salary pension scheme is not much use if you have no customers to pay for it.

Pilots who are accepting these appalling deals, what are they supposed to do instead? Stand on their soapboxes in the jobcentre, decrying the laws of the market place? Not surprisingly, they have to take the best that is offered and if that means paying for training, so be it - how can you blame them, they have to eat!

Scottie, I too deplore the way it's going but the law of the marketplace is fundamental and the shorthaul air travel industry is about as savage as it gets. Unless there is an EU pilot shortage, the pilot group will inevitably suffer.

BigBusDriver06 that's a very one sided and gloomy view of the marketplace! Hence my earlier reference to the samaratans!!!

However there is an alternative view to yours!

Bringing these new states into the EU does present some problems. In the short term from our perspective it may look gloomy, long term I think the future is bright.

All of a sudden the EU has new states where the costs of production are lower. So Capital will freely move into these areas, therebye creating jobs, creating wealth. As Capital flows into these areas eventually there'll be a skills shortage and salaries will rise to attract skilled individuals (supply and demand). You can't keep peoples wages suppressed as we know what happens when you do. People move on to better paid work or they strike. Eventually some Capital will find it to expensive to operate in these new EU members and Capital will move on, either in the EU or outsourcing to places like India but living standards will have been raised.

However the problem for business is that these new areas create a wealth of opportunity so they're moving in. Any company who moves in quickly has a few years advantage on salaries but any skill that is in demand will command a good salary. Over time it will be as expensive to employ someone in these new states as it will be in the old states. They're not sweat shops as they've now got the employee legislation of the EU to fall back on.

In aviation I don't think we have too much to worry about. I think the main worry is for the existing airlines in the new EU states. Most are now flying Western equipment and have a pool of well qualified individuals who now have the opportunity of freely travelling and offering their labour to a better paying employer. These companies can either replace the employee or stop the attrition rate by paying more to keep people.

Is there a pool of thousands of Eastern European pilots waiting to undercut us? I'd be interested to find out. Most would like our jobs and our salaries.

I take your point that employees can live anywhere in the EU and can be HOTAC'ed or they can do it all from their end but I've not seen or heard of any airline so far rising to the challenge. At a time when easyJet and Ryanair are racing through Europe trying to build strong foundations in the market place a new comer, even with lower costs, is going to find it hard to compete.

MyTravel have been outsourcing for years, whether this downsizing has a hidden agenda I don't know. Personally I think it's because they're in financial difficulties because more and more of us are not booking package holidays. MyTravels problems are the LoCo's gain.......

One last thing though, if Jet2 pays so poorly (giving them a competitive advantage), £50k for Captains versus £80k at eJ and say £100k at BA why hasn't Jet2 managed to take over aviation in the UK?

Interesting times ahead. :ok::\

didn't realise i'd start an economics debate! keep it up, guys

these are my economics. i'm fed up with commuting to ema and my car is drinking £000's. moving house would cost more than £20k and anyway i like where i live. direct entry commands at lpl and man are now like hen's teeth. £20k is a scam but to me it might be the key to a better life. as a bonus, i might get to fly by day too.

shame the salary is miserly

Scottie,
I admire your passion WRT to wages and conditions.
When you got a jet job there weren't any TRSS' in place.
Now easyJet, Channex/jet2, Ryanair, bmi.baby (slightly different scheme), bmi regional (same deal as Baby's), Emerald (sometimes do, sometimes don't) all have a form of TRSS.
I believe Britannia, Monarch, BA, B.Med don't (at this stage)

So what does a pilot do if they want to get off turboprops or get out of instructing? Since they don't have any jet time their CV goes to the bottom of the pile - or they apply to a company that is hiring but has a TRSS.

What has the current pilot bodies of the above organisations done to halt this state of play?
And you're suggesting to the guys on turboprops or instructing to hold out and NOT improve their situation or apply to that jet job that you too applied to a few years ago.


I definitely think paying for a rating "on spec" isn't a wise thing but the various pilot bodies had a chance to stop TRSSs but didn't or weren't effective with their protest.

Or was it a case of "I'm all right jack" with the jet rated and experienced guys?

Whilst I agree that people instructing or on turboprops have a difficult time at the moment TRSS is still taking the profession to new depths. Where will it end? Already I know TRSS pilots at Astreus are having to pay for line training at £100 per hour.

So not only are they paying for their own rating they're not getting a salary whilst flying paying punters around! I wish I was management as one could make a fortune out of pilots! :E

How long before other airlines copy Astreus?

I can see the original TRSS applicants idea. Do your time at crap airline and move on, problem is they're all doing it now!

What makes you think pilot bodies had the chance to stop TRSS? Why weren't all student pilots BALPA members? It's free after all :)

As for the assertion that all existing pilots take the view that "I'm all right jack so b*gger everyone else" well get real. Turn it around and look at the TRSS applicant who has just eroded T&C for those following them and those in the industry. I'm sure all existing jet pilots would be more than happy to have new pilots on the proper salary scale.

It will all go full circle though when pilots are once again in demand....then the TRSS will disappear :) :)

TRSS is not a new thing just a different phrase, cast your memories back to early 90's when the market was quite depressed and no employer would look at you unless you had modern flight guidance or jet time.
I bought myself a 757 rating in 94 trying to escape turbo-props costing £10,500 out of my net salary but i had a jet job offer within 6 weeks of completion. The difference now is that with certain operators, you sign for a loan, the company pay you back monthly for the rating from gross salary but at gordon browns expense, i.e. upto 40% tax break.
I am not saying that i agree with the system but thats the way the market is and i dont blame the guys for signing up.
If you were faced with flying a turbo prop for £16 K (apparently Air South West) a year or TRSS fly a jet and get circa £30 K what would you choose?

MF

Puzzle me this....

Thank goodness you jumped in Scottie, I couldnt believe what I was reading!! :{ What are these people thinking!! :{ In real terms our T & C's are going backwards, not just in the EU but around the world. As a professional group we must stand united. And please no more of the 'you're alright jack, I'm a wannabee' rubbish. We were all wannabees once. Roll on the golden years. :ok:

Puzzler,

Stand united, yes - but how? We cannot stand united against the marketplace as a whole and this is what is getting us.

Elsewhere in Pprune (Scandalous Pay) there is reference to Czech pilots who would be delighted with these pay and conditions. The Czech Republic is a JAA state, so as soon as the EC labour laws change their pilots can come and work here.

I welcome them as fellow European pilots, but to us in UK it is the equivalent of Dyson moving its vacuum cleaner production abroad. Effectively, jobs for UK pilots will simply disappear........

...........unless we adapt, and that means accepting the sort of deal that Jet2 is offering. Like it or not, it may be the only way that UK shorthaul airlines can survive.

MyTravel is already planning another airline downsize for 2007, allowing more outsourcing - guess where will the capacity will come from? Somewhere cheaper than UK.

Scottie, yes I know that eventually wealth will flow eastwards but it will all take time and aviation is so portable that mid-European aircraft and crews will make it to UK faster!

I don't agree with paying for training either, but for reasons stated elsewhere on this thread perhaps it is inevitable.

Instead of arguing amongst ourselves, we ought be applying pressure on the Government to have the cost of training properly tax deductible. Jet2’s way training repayment is tax efficient to a point as I understand it, since the training is repaid from gross salary and not net. However, if the cost of the repaying the training is for example £6700 per annum for three years then this should be added to our personal tax code for the period of the loan. If my tax code were say £8000 pa, I am allowed to earn £8000 per annum before I start paying tax. If the cost of training were added on to this, my personal allowance would go up to £14,700 and I would be allowed to earn this amount before paying tax. If the loan for the training were then deducted from salary, the biggest disadvantage would be to the Inland Revenue.

It’s true the Revenue and the Government are hardly likely to agree to this. But if the long term result of doing nothing to address the cost advantages of East European operators is that every aircraft over the UK is flown by non UK residents whilst UK pilots are either working overseas and paying the Revenue nothing, or UK pilots are on income support dependant on the Government, perhaps the Government should be made to listen.

It should be BALPA, the IPA and high profile representatives of UK airline management, Branson would be perfect, that lobbies UK Government for a change to tax rules of this nature or any other law change that would give our industry a chance of competing with the lower overhead East European operators.

How do we stand united
 

Puzzle me this....

BBD06 there is no clear cut answer but for what its worth heres how I see it. The likes of BALPA and the IPA cannot be under emphasised in presenting a united front, although they seem to lack proper representation and a firm resolve. But the real answer lies with us. As we climb the ladder in our careers we will certainly become more influential with some of us even becoming management :eek: But with this influence comes the responsibility and opportunity to make a difference. We must ensure our employers understand that a happy workforce is a stable workforce, a stable workforce is loyal and productive workforce. How many of us have said that it would only take 'this or that' and this job would be superb. It doesnt take alot, nor does it have to cost the earth - Southwest is an example of this at its best. People (the staff) are recognized as the reason the airline is successful and rewarded, and treated, accordingly.

Regarding the whole issue of training and the associated costs there are 2 points here. The cost to the company and the value of that investment to them. Airlines need to be realistic about how much initial and recurrent training is going to cost them and factor this in to their finances. To put their running costs on to their staff as a way of making a financial saving is certainly not going to instill loyalty :( However it is fair that an employer expects to get something for their investment and to this end bonding on a pro rata basis to cover the costs incurred is the fairest way to achieve this. Of course the question is, is it really necessary? Not if the airline has become an employer of choice! :ok: Is it reasonable to put pilots on reduced pay during line training or, like easyJet, for the first 6 months after check to line? Absolutely not! :* They are being as productive as anyone else, it is this kind of attitude that undermines the whole employer/employee relationship. I am still at a loss as to how BALPA allowed this to happen.

Bat.man, I fully concur with your argument for tax breaks, both to employers and employees. This is an area for the unions, although against this chancellor I wish them luck! :ugh:

So guys and gals, make your feelings known, but dont just complain, offer solutions. Most employers are wiley enough to understand my basic economic principals :D and want nothing more than a stable workforce. Recruiting costs money - its a vicious circle, lets break it :ok:

Nice post Puzzler.

Hello guys, Having read this thread from start to (current) finish it really is very informative. Regarding the questions of tax breaks I ask this question as a wannabe that has just finished ATPL training. Could an airline that decides to take on a student who has finished their training in effect take on their debt too ? feel free to shoot through my logic here...

My thinking here is

1. Airline takes students debt
2. Airline now has a £40-60K cost they can offset profits against.
3. Airline deduct loan repayments from students salary pretax.

outcome being student is repaying loan before tax instead of after (as per the Jet2 type rating) and the employer gets a nice cost to offset the profits on the books reducing corp tax ?

or have I missed something ?

FS

During the late Eighties, early Nineties, Airlines used take on Pilots and pay off their previous bonds.
Channex was one such company, among a fair few others.

BigBusDriver06. Your whole theory is based on the fact that cheaper wages in the east will mean lower salaries for us.

For the last 40 years airlines in the enclosed market of the UK airlines have been offering different levels of pay. So why have these airlines with low salaries not had the ability to knock out the airlines with high salaries???

Bottom line is that the differences between salaries in the East and salaries in the West do not make a great difference to the bottom line. Otherwise over the last 40 odd years we'd already be working for peanuts here in the UK.

Encouraging other pilots to sell themselves short because of your flawed theory makes me want to :yuk:

:( What a bunch of cheapskates.

Outfits like Jet2,and others who,make you pay for a rating are preying on the keen,invariably first timers,low houred and often poor.eager pilots.Rich daddys have ruined it,but honourable outfits,still do not make their pilots pay.

A bond is fair.the number of pilots who leave their employer,is directionally proportional to this fact.Leeds is a great spot,but on 20K,pa??

Good luck B757

QB

Those who are putting forward the view that some of the big charter boys (Britannia, Monarch etc) don't ask wannabees for a payment for type rating are not entirely correct. They only take low hours non-rated guys through the CTC scheme (unless you are the lucky 6 or so who get sponsored in full), which requires not only an up front payment (£6K or so), but if you are successfully plucked from the holding pool, then 6 months wage free flying with no guarantee of a permanent place.

You may not need to to dip your hand in your pocket for £20K, but the final cost to you in terms of payments to CTC and wage free living for 6 months isn't far from it.

Witchdoctor. Not exactly correct.

CTC ATP scheme costs about £6500

If successful after stage 4 (36 hours in a 737-700) into hold pool.

On completion of TR receive £2000 back.

6 Months line training etc during which you are paid approx £1000 a month.

To me getting a grand a month and getting a TR and experience with a guarentee of employment (granted may not be with the initial airline) as long as you do not mess up sounds good to me.

It appears to be one of the only reputable ways into the RHS of a jet for low houred guys and girls.

Rgds Joe

Spineless morons...
 

I hope thats said tongue in cheek... :mad:

CTC are the reason this industry is ****** up, they started the 'pay for type rating' nonsense (ok bmi started it, but at least they are an employer), only rich kids could go down the CTC Slave programe... and they continue I guess to attract that type of well heeled individual. I have known 1 chap who went on the CTC thing... son of a rich airfield owner for ****** sake... :mad:

Sorry about not being my usual reserved self... its just that this industry which I once loved... is being screwed over by management... aided by rich wannabes with not one moral fibre in their spineless bodies... :*

Meeb. You sound like a right little *****.

I am not a) spineless or b) rich.

I am though someone who after a lot of bloody hard work has a shot at getting into a RHS, not necessarily via CTC.

How many wannabe’s will ever get that opportunity? NOT many.

I am not in a position as of yet to stand up for company or industries T&C’s (as I am not employed) but I presume you are.

So Meeb
Why have you sat back all this time watching the erosion of T&C’s?
Why haven’t you done anything about it?
Why are you blaming a low houred un-employed wannabe for the industries and your faults?

We can either, deal with the very hard task of getting a job in the current climate or all roll over and wait for the T&C’s of yester-year to reappear. Not likely. Why should I make an individual stand when you haven’t?

Also do you really think it is fair to generalise CTC on rumours and on a single case of a “son of a rich airfield owner for ****** sake”. I for one would only make an opinion on something which I had all the facts for and experience of. Not hearsay.

You obviously think differently.

CTC are milking it end of story.
East versus West salaries well, CTC are the thin end of the wedge.

At the end of the day it's cheap labour. Long gone are the days of xxxx hours turbo prop, etc, as a pre requisite for Jet training.

So much for the Flight safety angle. Just waiting for a Major then the insurance companies will have to raise the bar.

Now, if you are prepared to prostitute your self, you will get that RHS job and don't forget you will reap what you sow.
Don't come complaining about T&C's 3 years or so down the line that F/O XYZ is on a better ( allegedly) deal than you are. its your bed mate, lie in it!

But never mind hey, as daddy invaribly has deep pockets.
Normally the ones that take about 6 attempts to get through the academics and techs. Then after bumbling through the Sim, still can't put the aircraft down on 3000 meters or more, which is worrying when you consider our aircraft is designed for short field Op's. Had four or five in the not too distant past who took nearly a whole season to put it down in the touch down zone!

They were actually nice guys and girls, its not their fault they have only done 30 hrs in a seneca, it's the Bean counters and the "system's" fault for going down this road to maddness in the first place!

I really do dispair some times.:{ :{ :{

Apologies in advance Meeb and others.

What used to happen was that a minor, third or second rate, jet operator would employ a turbo-prop experienced pilot and the operator would pay for the type training. The type training was one thing, the pilot had to be taught how to become an airline pilot too and this was done during type training, during line training and over the course of years with recurrent base checks. Sometimes the pilot would stay long enough to benefit from this training and would to get promoted to LHS, more often the pilot would take the benefit of this training to a better carrier, nowadays Virgin or Emirates come to mind. During the course of the pilots apprenticeship at his first jet operator he would be flying with Captains of generally not less than about 5000 hours and several years in the industry. The pilot had the benefit of years of collective experience and training from trainers that had thousands of hours and years of experience in difficult to operate jet aircraft, the B707 and Pprune’s 411A come to mind for those regular Ppruners.

In recent years, experienced turbo-prop pilots have gone to jet operators just the same, but instead of having the benefit of a couple of years flying some old TP that is a pig to fly, SD360 or F27 for example, manually flying (no AP), battling through the weather full of parcels in the middle of the night to some gale lashed regional airport with a captain who is 64, spent 40 years in BEA or similar and can’t see the instruments from more than 18 inches away; it’s more likely that today’s TP pilot spent two years watching the AP fly a modern turbo prop from one ILS to another. When he gets to his first jet airline, and by jet I mean an aircraft of over 50,000KG made by Airbus, Boeing, Lockheed or McDonnell-Douglas, he will be trained in the minimum of time by a third party training organisation by an instructor who has never flown the type in question. He will be line trained by someone with 200 hours on type to an SOP that varies monthly, is not allways written anywhere and differs according to the trainer. When he is on line, he will fly with captain’s with 3000 hours total and his recurrent OPC’s will be in a third party SIM that breaks down too often to do the LOFT exercise. His trainer will be on his first jet type too.

Or the jet employer can send his new pilots to CTC where they will be trained, coached and bullied if necessary into not only passing the type training, but learning to fly and learning to be an airline pilot at the same time. The instructor is likely to have spent years at BA flying several jet types and is still able to see the instruments from the back of the SIM, which rarely breaks down. If the pilot passes all this, it’s a bigger training risk because there is more to learn in a shorter period of time than in years previously, he will certainly pass his companies line training to a standard that is likely to equal or even exceed existing line standard.

The fact is airlines don’t have the training infrastructure of yesteryear and even if they did, the experience levels available to them to conduct the training have fallen. Why not get the candidate to carry his own financial risk and pay for the training at CTC? He will get the best training available outside first rate jet operators and if he’s no good he’ll get sent home.

My advice would be, borrow the money and get on with it; for sure the training will stand the individual in good stead for the rest of his/her career and since he’ll ‘own’ his rating and go elsewhere when the opportunity arises. In the post MYT times that are to come, quality training might mean the difference between working or not.

It’s true that T & C’s are being eroded, but compared to what? My friend the A330 captain paid for his own type rating 14 years ago to get his first jet job, waited 7 years for command and his first LHS salary was less than £50,000. I have a feeling that the benchmark in our industry may be about to change, again.

Good post, bat.man!

You concluded:
"I have a feeling that the benchmark in our industry may be about to change, again."

Too right - why do so many good capable intelligent pilots have a blind spot about this?

all very interesting batman, but all that doesn't alter the fact that if rich kids weren't buying their way to the front of the queue, then subscibing airlines would have to pay for the training at their own expense - all CTC does is shift the financial burden of training to the individual - nothing else!

Where are all these "rich kids"?

Yes, okay, I'm sure that quite a few get some modest assistance but my experience of first-job pilots is that they've had to crawl over broken glass to get there.

And having done it, they get a good kicking by some of their "seniors" on this thread, for sticking at it and borrowing even MORE money to progress their careers.

They have to take it as it is, not try and change the world so that they can get a free type rating.

bat.man

I can appreciate the comments you make and the description of the good ole days of the airline industry and its training and career structure have some merit. What i cannot agree with is your championing of CTC training and then the rubbishing of todays training departments as some sort of justification. CTC does a good job at what it does, and provides opportunities to those who can meet its requirements but there are plenty of airlines whose training departments are full of very experienced training Captains with thousands of hours on many types and whose set up is far more professional and geared to the real world of line flying than CTC.
If you want to give CTC a pat on the back feel free and if you want to knock a particular airline's training dept ( if you have good cause and hard facts) knock yourself out, but don't tar us all with the same brush.

rgds