Jet2/Channel Express
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Jet2/Channel Express
i've had a look at pilot recruitment on the channex website and it seems to imply that everybody has to pay for their 737 type rating - okay, you get it back but yr salary is reduced so you do actually end up paying for it one way or another
can this really be true? even in easyjet, you only pay if you are inexperienced
for an experienced guy/girl, £20k up front seems a bit steep, particularly bearing in mind the modest longterm pay & conditions that follow
have i got this right?
is it negotiable?
will they get many takers?
can this really be true? even in easyjet, you only pay if you are inexperienced
for an experienced guy/girl, £20k up front seems a bit steep, particularly bearing in mind the modest longterm pay & conditions that follow
have i got this right?
is it negotiable?
will they get many takers?
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You will always pay !
Unfortunatly the boys with the rich daddys have wrecked the industry for us all with there determination to get ahead of the game by buying themselfs a type rating and over the past few years the beancounters have copped on to this and now we all have to pay.
People at one time would think that training bonds were unfair but free training balanced only by a commitment to work for an airline for two of three years must seem like a very good deal now !.
The lower pay to repay the training is always the best as you cant be taxed on what you have not been paid !.
People at one time would think that training bonds were unfair but free training balanced only by a commitment to work for an airline for two of three years must seem like a very good deal now !.
The lower pay to repay the training is always the best as you cant be taxed on what you have not been paid !.
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After talking to a friend who works for Jet2 this is the deal as it was explained to me. The scheme applies to non-type rated pilots and is designed it would appear to expose Jet2 to zero risk (which begs the question why they have people enduring numerical,verbal reasoning and psychometric tests and then a simulator assessment with CTC).
You have to raise £20000 to pay for the rating. It's up to you how you raise the money. However any loan is in your name so if anything happens to Jet2 during the repayment period you're saddled with it. They only pay back £20000 over 3 years and not the interest on the loan which can be a substantial amount depending on the rate you manage to get (for example with a highish 9.9% APR you'll pay getting on £3200 in interest over 3 years). You are only employed by Channel Express/Jet2 once your licence is endorsed with the 737 so up to that point your on your own. You are not paid during training and if you're unfortunate enough not to pass the course they have no obligation to you.
Once employed you are on probationary salary for 2 months and then you are paid a substantially reduced salary for 3 years. Benefits such as private medical and loss of licence apply to captains only I believe.
Jet2 require captains at the moment. To illustrate how poor this deal is, a non-type rated captain after joining earns £49334 for the probation period then £53761 for 3 years. There is no sector pay.
When you compare this to the salaries and packages offered elsewhere in the "lo-cost" sector it would appear a no-brainer unless you're desperate (especially if you're a captain).
You have to raise £20000 to pay for the rating. It's up to you how you raise the money. However any loan is in your name so if anything happens to Jet2 during the repayment period you're saddled with it. They only pay back £20000 over 3 years and not the interest on the loan which can be a substantial amount depending on the rate you manage to get (for example with a highish 9.9% APR you'll pay getting on £3200 in interest over 3 years). You are only employed by Channel Express/Jet2 once your licence is endorsed with the 737 so up to that point your on your own. You are not paid during training and if you're unfortunate enough not to pass the course they have no obligation to you.
Once employed you are on probationary salary for 2 months and then you are paid a substantially reduced salary for 3 years. Benefits such as private medical and loss of licence apply to captains only I believe.
Jet2 require captains at the moment. To illustrate how poor this deal is, a non-type rated captain after joining earns £49334 for the probation period then £53761 for 3 years. There is no sector pay.
When you compare this to the salaries and packages offered elsewhere in the "lo-cost" sector it would appear a no-brainer unless you're desperate (especially if you're a captain).
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Looking at the Manchester programme it looks as if Jet2 will have a low aircraft utilisation, but at least their schedule keeping should be better than some.
Does anyone know what the actual utilisation at Leeds is?
Does anyone know what the actual utilisation at Leeds is?
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From what i hear they are a good outfit, if your joining for the dosh its not for you!! compared with other lo co operators you don't work to hard, or so i'm told.
Cheers
Burt
Cheers
Burt
.... And bear in mind that their aircraft are OOOLLLDDD 737 Classics (they bought six mid eighties vintage Ansett aircraft) that would have been very cheap. This defrays a lot of the low utilisation costs.
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Visionary or scaremonger?
Maybe we shouldn't be so hard on Jet2 over its pay and conditions?
For example, next year Jet2 will be head-to-head with Wizz on BUD-MAN/LPL, and Wizz's manpower costs must be less than half of Jet2's. So the choice is, accept Jet2's pay and conditions or let Wizz and it's fellow mid-European airlines take ALL our UK livelihood away.
And where does it end? Britannia is paying well over double for a top-of-scale Captain compared with a Jet2 first-year Captain, if you take into account overtime, training, pension, more time off and other perks - and even MyTravel, traditionally a modest payer, isn't that far behind. So how will they and Monarch, First Choice and Thomas Cook survive five years hence? Not to mention BA shorthaul.
Not even easyJet is lo co these days. First year Captains on £80k+ (okay, they do have to work for it, but no harder than a mid-European would accept) and brand-new aircraft which have to keep moving to earn their lease costs - under attack on every route from new lo co start-ups who really are lo co.
Maybe Jet2 has it right - cheap pilots and cheap aircraft, neither of which cost much to have hanging around when there's not enough work to do. A few years down the line, Jet2 may be one of the few UK airlines that can afford to keep going. Particularly if they can keep up their legendary quality.
Better make hay while the sun shines!
For example, next year Jet2 will be head-to-head with Wizz on BUD-MAN/LPL, and Wizz's manpower costs must be less than half of Jet2's. So the choice is, accept Jet2's pay and conditions or let Wizz and it's fellow mid-European airlines take ALL our UK livelihood away.
And where does it end? Britannia is paying well over double for a top-of-scale Captain compared with a Jet2 first-year Captain, if you take into account overtime, training, pension, more time off and other perks - and even MyTravel, traditionally a modest payer, isn't that far behind. So how will they and Monarch, First Choice and Thomas Cook survive five years hence? Not to mention BA shorthaul.
Not even easyJet is lo co these days. First year Captains on £80k+ (okay, they do have to work for it, but no harder than a mid-European would accept) and brand-new aircraft which have to keep moving to earn their lease costs - under attack on every route from new lo co start-ups who really are lo co.
Maybe Jet2 has it right - cheap pilots and cheap aircraft, neither of which cost much to have hanging around when there's not enough work to do. A few years down the line, Jet2 may be one of the few UK airlines that can afford to keep going. Particularly if they can keep up their legendary quality.
Better make hay while the sun shines!
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This deal really is reasonable in this day and age. The world has changed, and companies like Britannia, oops, sorry - Thomsonfly - are living in the past. They will soon be ready for the taking, too.
Its only my view, which will be unpopular because it does not support the status que, but I am with the poster who warned of foreign competition (in this case Wizz), because unless Britain can adapt we may not get off the slippery declining slope.
Bear in mind that it wasn't long ago we did all sorts of things well in Britain. You can think of them as well as I can. But in nearly ALL the cases, we are doing less well now than we did. (We used to be big in the airline cargo world for instance.)
No one wants penury, least of all the employers, who want a happy and stable pilot force, but you just HAVE to compete, and that means that today one has to do some things a bit differently.
I wish Jet 2 well, and hope they can thrive. If so they will provide many pilots jobs for years to come. First of all, though, they have to survive.
Its only my view, which will be unpopular because it does not support the status que, but I am with the poster who warned of foreign competition (in this case Wizz), because unless Britain can adapt we may not get off the slippery declining slope.
Bear in mind that it wasn't long ago we did all sorts of things well in Britain. You can think of them as well as I can. But in nearly ALL the cases, we are doing less well now than we did. (We used to be big in the airline cargo world for instance.)
No one wants penury, least of all the employers, who want a happy and stable pilot force, but you just HAVE to compete, and that means that today one has to do some things a bit differently.
I wish Jet 2 well, and hope they can thrive. If so they will provide many pilots jobs for years to come. First of all, though, they have to survive.
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Gentleman, what a load of b*ll*cks!!! it's not Britannia, easyJet etc that are living in the past. They're paying the going rate at the moment. If you choose to pay for your own training and accept a lower salary more fool you 
You lot sound as if you've thrown in the towel, how low will you all be willing to let salaries go? Maybe you'll start paying them for work???
Your attitude reeks of bend over and shaft me
Are BA, Air France, Lufthansa, Iberia, SAS, Britannia, easyJet, Air Berlin, HLX pilots etc etc etc just going to roll over and let reduced salaries happen? Should we adopt your attitude and lower ourselves to the lowest common denominator? I think not.
It's not Wizz Air and our new EU colleagues that are undermining salaries, it's the like of you paying for your own type ratings and willingly accepting lower salaries that is undermining not only the UK pilot workforce but also the pilot workforce across the EU.
I'm sure our colleagues in Eastern Europe are fighting for higher salaries, looking on with hope at ours and not thanking you for your defeatist attitudes. There is no reason for our salaries to go down to compete with their's. The likes of Wizz Air is already struggling, do you really think that a base at Leeds Bradford to compete with Jet2 is high on their list of priorities?!?!?
Show me another low cost start up from the new EU that is looking threatening to any of ours? Wizzair started with 40 million euros and is desperately looking for more capital.
One last thing gents, with your attitudes do not volunteer for the samaritans
You lot sound as if you've thrown in the towel, how low will you all be willing to let salaries go? Maybe you'll start paying them for work???
Your attitude reeks of bend over and shaft me
Are BA, Air France, Lufthansa, Iberia, SAS, Britannia, easyJet, Air Berlin, HLX pilots etc etc etc just going to roll over and let reduced salaries happen? Should we adopt your attitude and lower ourselves to the lowest common denominator? I think not.
It's not Wizz Air and our new EU colleagues that are undermining salaries, it's the like of you paying for your own type ratings and willingly accepting lower salaries that is undermining not only the UK pilot workforce but also the pilot workforce across the EU.
I'm sure our colleagues in Eastern Europe are fighting for higher salaries, looking on with hope at ours and not thanking you for your defeatist attitudes. There is no reason for our salaries to go down to compete with their's. The likes of Wizz Air is already struggling, do you really think that a base at Leeds Bradford to compete with Jet2 is high on their list of priorities?!?!?
Show me another low cost start up from the new EU that is looking threatening to any of ours? Wizzair started with 40 million euros and is desperately looking for more capital.
One last thing gents, with your attitudes do not volunteer for the samaritans
Last edited by Scottie; 13th Nov 2004 at 07:16.
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Let me just get this right: it's o.k. for wannabee pilots to not take jobs and make a stand on self type ratings. And the aim of doing this is that all those pilots who already have jobs and earn lots of money can continue to earn lots of money.
If I was totally selfish I would have to agree but it would count me out for the Samaritans.
If I was totally selfish I would have to agree but it would count me out for the Samaritans.
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Bigbrutha
PM is expert at losing industrial tribunals and court cases. Most however are settled out of court with the winner sworn to secrecy, cannot think of one which he has won. As you say, outsiders have a rose-tinted view of the company, insiders know better. You'll never catch him in a dark alley though, too much of a crush!
PM is expert at losing industrial tribunals and court cases. Most however are settled out of court with the winner sworn to secrecy, cannot think of one which he has won. As you say, outsiders have a rose-tinted view of the company, insiders know better. You'll never catch him in a dark alley though, too much of a crush!
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Scottie
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You wrote:
"I'm sure our colleagues in Eastern Europe are fighting for higher salaries, looking on with hope at ours and not thanking you for your defeatist attitudes. There is no reason for our salaries to go down to compete with their's. The likes of Wizz Air is already struggling, do you really think that a base at Leeds Bradford to compete with Jet2 is high on their list of priorities?!?!?"
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There's EVERY reason for our salaries to go down! An EC pilot is priced according to where he lives but his airline will be able to fly anywhere in the EC. The lowest prices will be charged by the airlines that have the cheapest workforces, and these are where the customers will go - provided of course that quality and safety are acceptable, and there's no reason why they shouldn't be.
Wizz is only an example and any financial problems are irrelevant - if they don't operate, someone else will. They don't need a LBA base or indeed any base in Western Europe, they can operate their routes from the other end.
MyTravel's big cutback is apparently due to fleet rationalisation, but there might be a hidden agenda. To cover the fleet reduction, they will need to buy in a lot of capacity and (longterm) why not use cheap airlines from Central Europe? The plan could be to minimise the central expensive airline core, ie MyTravel Airways, and maximise the outsourcing. Saves money and allows maximum flexibility. Maybe the other tour operators will follow suit?
How can Britannia etc avoid attacks on the pay and conditions? It's all very well BALPA refusing to allow them, but at the end of the day their product will be too expensive for the marketplace. And what then? A final salary pension scheme is not much use if you have no customers to pay for it.
Pilots who are accepting these appalling deals, what are they supposed to do instead? Stand on their soapboxes in the jobcentre, decrying the laws of the market place? Not surprisingly, they have to take the best that is offered and if that means paying for training, so be it - how can you blame them, they have to eat!
Scottie, I too deplore the way it's going but the law of the marketplace is fundamental and the shorthaul air travel industry is about as savage as it gets. Unless there is an EU pilot shortage, the pilot group will inevitably suffer.
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You wrote:
"I'm sure our colleagues in Eastern Europe are fighting for higher salaries, looking on with hope at ours and not thanking you for your defeatist attitudes. There is no reason for our salaries to go down to compete with their's. The likes of Wizz Air is already struggling, do you really think that a base at Leeds Bradford to compete with Jet2 is high on their list of priorities?!?!?"
--------------
There's EVERY reason for our salaries to go down! An EC pilot is priced according to where he lives but his airline will be able to fly anywhere in the EC. The lowest prices will be charged by the airlines that have the cheapest workforces, and these are where the customers will go - provided of course that quality and safety are acceptable, and there's no reason why they shouldn't be.
Wizz is only an example and any financial problems are irrelevant - if they don't operate, someone else will. They don't need a LBA base or indeed any base in Western Europe, they can operate their routes from the other end.
MyTravel's big cutback is apparently due to fleet rationalisation, but there might be a hidden agenda. To cover the fleet reduction, they will need to buy in a lot of capacity and (longterm) why not use cheap airlines from Central Europe? The plan could be to minimise the central expensive airline core, ie MyTravel Airways, and maximise the outsourcing. Saves money and allows maximum flexibility. Maybe the other tour operators will follow suit?
How can Britannia etc avoid attacks on the pay and conditions? It's all very well BALPA refusing to allow them, but at the end of the day their product will be too expensive for the marketplace. And what then? A final salary pension scheme is not much use if you have no customers to pay for it.
Pilots who are accepting these appalling deals, what are they supposed to do instead? Stand on their soapboxes in the jobcentre, decrying the laws of the market place? Not surprisingly, they have to take the best that is offered and if that means paying for training, so be it - how can you blame them, they have to eat!
Scottie, I too deplore the way it's going but the law of the marketplace is fundamental and the shorthaul air travel industry is about as savage as it gets. Unless there is an EU pilot shortage, the pilot group will inevitably suffer.
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BigBusDriver06 that's a very one sided and gloomy view of the marketplace! Hence my earlier reference to the samaratans!!!
However there is an alternative view to yours!
Bringing these new states into the EU does present some problems. In the short term from our perspective it may look gloomy, long term I think the future is bright.
All of a sudden the EU has new states where the costs of production are lower. So Capital will freely move into these areas, therebye creating jobs, creating wealth. As Capital flows into these areas eventually there'll be a skills shortage and salaries will rise to attract skilled individuals (supply and demand). You can't keep peoples wages suppressed as we know what happens when you do. People move on to better paid work or they strike. Eventually some Capital will find it to expensive to operate in these new EU members and Capital will move on, either in the EU or outsourcing to places like India but living standards will have been raised.
However the problem for business is that these new areas create a wealth of opportunity so they're moving in. Any company who moves in quickly has a few years advantage on salaries but any skill that is in demand will command a good salary. Over time it will be as expensive to employ someone in these new states as it will be in the old states. They're not sweat shops as they've now got the employee legislation of the EU to fall back on.
In aviation I don't think we have too much to worry about. I think the main worry is for the existing airlines in the new EU states. Most are now flying Western equipment and have a pool of well qualified individuals who now have the opportunity of freely travelling and offering their labour to a better paying employer. These companies can either replace the employee or stop the attrition rate by paying more to keep people.
Is there a pool of thousands of Eastern European pilots waiting to undercut us? I'd be interested to find out. Most would like our jobs and our salaries.
I take your point that employees can live anywhere in the EU and can be HOTAC'ed or they can do it all from their end but I've not seen or heard of any airline so far rising to the challenge. At a time when easyJet and Ryanair are racing through Europe trying to build strong foundations in the market place a new comer, even with lower costs, is going to find it hard to compete.
MyTravel have been outsourcing for years, whether this downsizing has a hidden agenda I don't know. Personally I think it's because they're in financial difficulties because more and more of us are not booking package holidays. MyTravels problems are the LoCo's gain.......
One last thing though, if Jet2 pays so poorly (giving them a competitive advantage), £50k for Captains versus £80k at eJ and say £100k at BA why hasn't Jet2 managed to take over aviation in the UK?
Interesting times ahead.
However there is an alternative view to yours!
Bringing these new states into the EU does present some problems. In the short term from our perspective it may look gloomy, long term I think the future is bright.
All of a sudden the EU has new states where the costs of production are lower. So Capital will freely move into these areas, therebye creating jobs, creating wealth. As Capital flows into these areas eventually there'll be a skills shortage and salaries will rise to attract skilled individuals (supply and demand). You can't keep peoples wages suppressed as we know what happens when you do. People move on to better paid work or they strike. Eventually some Capital will find it to expensive to operate in these new EU members and Capital will move on, either in the EU or outsourcing to places like India but living standards will have been raised.
However the problem for business is that these new areas create a wealth of opportunity so they're moving in. Any company who moves in quickly has a few years advantage on salaries but any skill that is in demand will command a good salary. Over time it will be as expensive to employ someone in these new states as it will be in the old states. They're not sweat shops as they've now got the employee legislation of the EU to fall back on.
In aviation I don't think we have too much to worry about. I think the main worry is for the existing airlines in the new EU states. Most are now flying Western equipment and have a pool of well qualified individuals who now have the opportunity of freely travelling and offering their labour to a better paying employer. These companies can either replace the employee or stop the attrition rate by paying more to keep people.
Is there a pool of thousands of Eastern European pilots waiting to undercut us? I'd be interested to find out. Most would like our jobs and our salaries.
I take your point that employees can live anywhere in the EU and can be HOTAC'ed or they can do it all from their end but I've not seen or heard of any airline so far rising to the challenge. At a time when easyJet and Ryanair are racing through Europe trying to build strong foundations in the market place a new comer, even with lower costs, is going to find it hard to compete.
MyTravel have been outsourcing for years, whether this downsizing has a hidden agenda I don't know. Personally I think it's because they're in financial difficulties because more and more of us are not booking package holidays. MyTravels problems are the LoCo's gain.......
One last thing though, if Jet2 pays so poorly (giving them a competitive advantage), £50k for Captains versus £80k at eJ and say £100k at BA why hasn't Jet2 managed to take over aviation in the UK?
Interesting times ahead.
Last edited by Scottie; 13th Nov 2004 at 11:01.
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didn't realise i'd start an economics debate! keep it up, guys
these are my economics. i'm fed up with commuting to ema and my car is drinking £000's. moving house would cost more than £20k and anyway i like where i live. direct entry commands at lpl and man are now like hen's teeth. £20k is a scam but to me it might be the key to a better life. as a bonus, i might get to fly by day too.
shame the salary is miserly
these are my economics. i'm fed up with commuting to ema and my car is drinking £000's. moving house would cost more than £20k and anyway i like where i live. direct entry commands at lpl and man are now like hen's teeth. £20k is a scam but to me it might be the key to a better life. as a bonus, i might get to fly by day too.
shame the salary is miserly
PPRuNe Handmaiden
Scottie,
I admire your passion WRT to wages and conditions.
When you got a jet job there weren't any TRSS' in place.
Now easyJet, Channex/jet2, Ryanair, bmi.baby (slightly different scheme), bmi regional (same deal as Baby's), Emerald (sometimes do, sometimes don't) all have a form of TRSS.
I believe Britannia, Monarch, BA, B.Med don't (at this stage)
So what does a pilot do if they want to get off turboprops or get out of instructing? Since they don't have any jet time their CV goes to the bottom of the pile - or they apply to a company that is hiring but has a TRSS.
What has the current pilot bodies of the above organisations done to halt this state of play?
And you're suggesting to the guys on turboprops or instructing to hold out and NOT improve their situation or apply to that jet job that you too applied to a few years ago.
I definitely think paying for a rating "on spec" isn't a wise thing but the various pilot bodies had a chance to stop TRSSs but didn't or weren't effective with their protest.
Or was it a case of "I'm all right jack" with the jet rated and experienced guys?
I admire your passion WRT to wages and conditions.
When you got a jet job there weren't any TRSS' in place.
Now easyJet, Channex/jet2, Ryanair, bmi.baby (slightly different scheme), bmi regional (same deal as Baby's), Emerald (sometimes do, sometimes don't) all have a form of TRSS.
I believe Britannia, Monarch, BA, B.Med don't (at this stage)
So what does a pilot do if they want to get off turboprops or get out of instructing? Since they don't have any jet time their CV goes to the bottom of the pile - or they apply to a company that is hiring but has a TRSS.
What has the current pilot bodies of the above organisations done to halt this state of play?
And you're suggesting to the guys on turboprops or instructing to hold out and NOT improve their situation or apply to that jet job that you too applied to a few years ago.
I definitely think paying for a rating "on spec" isn't a wise thing but the various pilot bodies had a chance to stop TRSSs but didn't or weren't effective with their protest.
Or was it a case of "I'm all right jack" with the jet rated and experienced guys?