Ba's DEP fleets
 

Hello all!
I am a B737 pilot who has just applied for BA's DEP scheme.
I was wondering weather someone may be able to clarify the following issues:
1)What sort of fleet may DEP's go to?, is there any possibility of going strait on to a B777 for example?
2)what sort of loss of income/licence insurance does BA use?
3)what is the new pension plan all about?
3)how many pilots is BA looking for?

Thanks for any info!
cheers!
Pulman

Pullman, (0/10 for question numbering by the way)

1) Probably your current type. i.e. you would go to LGW on the 737.
2) Believe 150k FO, 200k Capt.
3) Dunno.
3b) 100+

And the ability to differentiate between "Weather" and "Whether"!;)

Cough, thanks for the info!
I am working on my question numbering, so I have prepared another two.
1)What sort of annual salary can a year 1 F/O bring home after tax including all allowances?
2)How many years to command on the short haul fleet?

Hopefully I will score better this time!!

Thanks!

Pulman

pulman,

1) Not working there yet, but from what I can gleam average Gross including flight pay for a year one FO short haul should come out at £54000, so I'd say £2900-3000 p.c.m. There is a payrise (to be backdated) about to go through too. Heres the breakdown :

Basic = £40,500
Flight pay (fully taxed) = ~ 750hrs * £8 = £6000
Time away from base (estimated 2500-3500) = 3000 * £2.58 = £7740 (Only taxed at about 7%)

Total Gross= £54,240

2) A long time. In past in has been very short, but now more than 10 years, but of course the tide comes in and goes out again every so often.

1) There's no recruitment on to the 737 at LGW, the fleet is in surplus already. New entrants will go to the A320, 777 or 747. The company would like type rated pilots to go to the long haul fleets, but strangely enough none are applying. There is still immense demand for a 747 position within the company so I'd expect the majority of new DEPs to go the 777 or A320 where they're needed most.

2) Dunno off the top of my head.

3) New pension plan is gash. Its a defined contribution scheme, you pay a bit, the company pays a bit, then at the end of your career you take all the cash and buy an annuity, which I think is a sort of contract for another company to pay you £X per year until you die. I think current annuity rats are around £100K to buy a £3K p.a. annuity, so work out how many millions you'd need to save to retire comfortably. The BA contribution is 12% of pensionable pay which is only actually about 75% of basic, so the real contribution rate is 9%. This is significantly lower than Virgin and GB.

4) About 200 I think.

For your next set of questions:

1) Probably about £3000pcm at a rough guess.

2) Currently at least 10 years short haul and 15 years long haul. If the retirement age restriction is lifted in 2006 then add a minimum of 5 years to that. Bear in mind that there are probably the best part 1000 pilots in BA who are 30 or younger. They will get a command before you and if you are over 30 then they will also outlast you in BA.

If all you want to do is long haul then go to Virgin. Fly less hours with better cabin crew and you don't get the constant sh1t you get flying for BA.

Mentioned this in the past:

If you join BA tomorrow, you will not get a command for a very long time. Hand Solo is probably about right. Since the new pay deal, a SH command occurs at LGW at a seniority number of approximately 1800, SH LHR at 1400, LH LHR at 1000 (ish). If you join tomorrow, you seniority number will be 3100 ish. As the large retirement bubble ends (plus the advent of new legislation in 2006), your seniority number will not change by very much (probably around 50 places per year). You do the the maths.

Keep in mind that there are a lot of senior guys aged around 30. For example, I flew with a 777 skipper the other week who was 36. He will be a long haul captain for 19 to 26 years, depending on when he retires. Bear in mind, he joined at 19 or thereabouts so it's taken him 17 years. Talk about "right place at the right time".

DEPs will almost certainly join on the A320 or the 777. There is enough demand from within to fly the -400.

Seeing as there seems to be a number of BA crew replying to this post, I might just hi-jack it! Seems that now the DEP scheme for type-rated pilots has closed, BA have asked Oxford for 24 graduates from the APP scheme. How come BA haven't advertised for non-type rated pilots first, who perhaps have lots of experience just not the required type-rating??

If anyone can give an idea as to whether they might advertise for such great people like myself (!) then please let me know!

Ta!

I thought the last DEP recruitment drive widened the criteria to those with a 737 or 757/767 rating as well? BA's priority in recruitment has always been DEPs and CEPs, but as the CEP program is gone they seem to be trying to substitiute it with the Oxford graduates. It'll be interesting to see if they get 24 takers as the new entrants would join on a significantly reduced salary (only slightly greater than CEPs) with the same long time to command. They'd get more cash and a quicker command at Easy! When that source of recruits runs dry then BA will have to consider their position again.

My mistake. You are correct. Can't see many takers for SHaG though...

Hand Solo - and if the sucess rate through the assessment is at the same rate as the DEP's at the moment then they'll need a lot of suitable people invited to interview !

Why are they advertising for 757/767 drivers if new comers will go onto the 777?

cirro.

If you are current on e.g. 757 you can do a 'short course' which is shorter, and hence cheaper than a full conversion onto the 777 (or 747 for that matter).

The DEP recruitment asked for anyone with a type rating on either the 737, 757/767 or 777 or the A320.
This application closed yesterday.

Why would they now take guys straight out of training school when they could advertise for crew with so many hours, airline experience but who don't have the necessray type-rating. Am pretty sure there's lots of us who would apply and pay for the type-rating - after all pretty much every other airline asks you to. BA would be no different.

Oh, and am pretty sure that any of the OAT graduates who got offered a job would take it!

Because even with BA paying for a type-rating, the five year engagement freeze at a low (practically cadet level) pay makes it cheaper for them to recruit from the schools.

The BA recruitment of 24 fATPLs from FTOs (not just Oxford) seems to be primarily aimed at recovering some of those who were dumped from the CEP scheme after 9/11. In other words, they are a known quantity as they've been through all the BA recruiting procedure before.

In BA's quest to save money, they have been very clever with both CAP manipulation and the posting of pilots from surplus fleets. This has meant that recrutment has been pushed from sept 04 to jan 05.

The response for type rated pilots for 777 and 747 has been poor, therefore expect to see more freeze waivers from the SHAG fleet onto these types circa jan 04. The 737 trainers have been told to expect 6 DEPs per month from spring 05. Well that was last weeks plan;)

EDIT Seems that the students from OATS/WMU will be destined for SHAG....... just a guess :ok:

Hand,

The 737 was going to be in surplus, but now that the bus is not coming to LGW and the leases on the -500's have been extended (poss 73NG's) I leave you to guess the rest... (C/DEP's for LGW):D

Cough

yes but when are BA going to advertise again for such crews.... will they be taking on non-type rated?!?

Some type rated 737 bodys now have BA contracts and are off to LGW on the 737 from January I hear...

Have been told by a source that there may be Airbus induction courses on the 7th Jan 2005, B737 courses on the 6th, and B757/767 courses to be anounced a couple of weeks later?
No LH DEP's for the moment.
No further Non type rated recruitment for a while....unconfirmed??
Obviously have what they need.....bugger!!

touchedrunway - there is a 744 DEP course with at least 5 people on it late Jan. None of them have type ratings.

expedite_climb,
That is exactly what the Galley FM grapevine told me earlier today. Any news on other offers for other fleets?

Anyone else heard of the 75/76 getting bodies, thought it was full? And isn't the 747 oversubscribed with internal bids? All change it seems...

If the take up rate for 747 -400 type rated crews was very low, how come that nine type rated f/o's from GSS all failed to get past day one of the interview process. If all of them are that poor why are BA allowing them to fly BA cargo? Or could it be that ES (the M O'L of the cargo world) at GSS is extending his dictatorship to BA as well.

I doubt ES has any influence, he wasn't exactly the most popular man in BA when he was there. The interview process isn't intended to work out who can fly a 744, it's there to work out who will fit in with the BA culture and be able to operate effectively with other BA staff from all departments. It is by no means perfect, but it does weed out the extreme and the unusual characters. Sometimes perfectly good guys fall foul of the process, but thats exactly the same as any other job interview process anywhere else in the world. The question of flying BA cargo is irrelevant as GSS is a separate company (though it shouldn't be IMHO) and cargo doesn't answer back.

hands solo
 

how come i know somebody who has been taken on 737 at lgw?
to everyone : if you are a 737 Captain at Easyjet and 40 years old . would you go to B A or Virgin not married no kids and pissed off with the job. is the grass greener?

Think thin, don't know about Virgin, but if you're hacked off now it's probably a very mild dose compared to what BA will give you.
Be warned!

Hi all

Question for the one's in the know,

From yesterday ba widened the criteria for DEP.

on top of type rated pilots the they are now looking for
non type rated jet and turbo prop pilots.
check it out on www.britishairwaysjobs.com

My questions are: 1.how many type rated pilots did they get?

2.how many pilots are they still looking for?

The only thing that seems strange to me in the process is
that all airlines are trying to safe money on all fronts, ie
making us flying around on minimum fuel and on the other hand spending vasts amount of money on recruitment, where they have
a pool of pilots ,ie GSS,BACX , they know everything they need to know from years, of training which is more less supervised by ba managers.
I probably haven't got the bigger picture or what.

Sick - you rightly said how BA have lowered the requirements....
Absolutely.!!!!! I hear that the recent interviews did not provide many "acceptable" ( their words) guys.

At this rate they will have to start sponsoring again!!!!!

I'm afraid our mgt here had no idea about the perception of BA in the job market.
Their initial advert for 777 or 747 type rated guys just highlighted their pompous attitude.

When the DEP req't was thrown up a year or so ago they thought other pilots would be beating down our door (all 777 or 747 type rated.)

Happily they are now seeing otherwise.

Thanks to pprune and other improved forms of info gathering .... guys realise that BA has certain drawbacks.

(i) Pay is only industry average.
(ii) Applicants now may NEVER get a command at BA
(iii) They (BA) work you very hard; eg 5 transatlantic trips per month on the 777 and you will NOT have a happy work life balance on any BA fleet with junior seniority. ( Bidline - the BA rostering system ensures that senior pilots get exactly what they want ... but it is always at someone elses expense... see other threads for info).
(iv) LHR is the worlds worst airport and operating there with BA's bizarre rules for ground transport and cabin crew hours will frustrate you !
(iiii) A family home in an area with good state schools near LHR will cost you 650K, maybe more. Commuting to LHR is not easy and journey times are unpredictable.


From what I can see, many guys are staying put in their existing outfits. ( except perhaps for the sad case of some of the MYT pilots) .
Some of my friends made moves to Cathay Cargo, Dragonair and are really glad now that they didn't join BA.
Others who did give up their seats(both left and right) with JMC, Midland etc and moved to BA in the last 5 years really regret it .

Many pilots reading this site, I suspect, aspire to Cathay, Emirates or Virgin but BA is not proving to be a desirable choice.

Guys,
I am on the elite fleet in a good position.
Cojo744 half way up the list
IMHO Do not touch Ba with a barge pole.
They think they (the management)are gods gift but are just arrogant.
VS CX EK - go for whovever pays the most money
No chance of a lh command,
Unless of course you have a fetish for fat and 50 mags,
have they stopped advertising for cabin crew in readers wives yet?
Africacore

Pulman

Before your selection.

As well as Whether/weather get a grip of strait/straight.

Sick,

How many guys are seconded to GSS from BA ?

5 seconded to GSS at the moment

5 more to follow in this training year allegedy..

as was said earlier on...
Which given the vitriol the GSS co-pilots have been dishing out to our guys on secondment and to other BA pilots downroute, entirely explains why non of them passed the selection!

They're playing into our hands tho - it only aids our case to bring it all back inhouse where it rightfully should be...

Do you have a date for that letter? The only one similar in the Log I remember was from a retired BA 747 skipper who was working for GSS, no doubt for peanuts to supplement his 6 figure crystallised pension.

GSS exists solely to serve BA World Cargo. Perhaps other customers will be found in due course, but how long will it take to get four or five 744Fs worth to replace BAWCs work? If GSS walk away then thats no bad thing for BA pilots. The work would have to be taken in house so there'd be no need for secondments, they'd all be bona fide BA jobs.

The walking scenario is still unlikely despite a shortage of 744s. You'd need to find a single customer or group of customers who would commit to taking all BAWCs capacity on a long term basis at the same or better rates. There's no way BAWC would permit GSS to bump their cargo from some flights in favour of another customers, they're far too mercenary for that. I think the moment GSS failed to put BAWC first then BAWC would be the ones threatening to walk. They can take the loss, GSS can't.

I did ask Jim McAuslan about GSS prior to a recent BALPA meeting. He was of the opinion that the long term goal is for all the cargo work to be flown in-house by BA.

I've been amazed to read some of the posts from BA guys here. I'm in the hold pool and of course have my eyes open to the fact that BA isn't the company it was 10 years ago. But from the posts on this thread it seems most guys with a stable jet job in the UK are better staying put than leaving for Big Airways. Do people who joined BA from the likes of Midland and jmc really regret their decision? Or has time and a bit of misplaced nostalgia jaundiced their views?

Is life really that bad as a junior FO there?

Not necessarily. It depends which fleet you end up on and what your particular interest is. On the 777, you will do five or six trips a month (mainly Eastern Seaboard or Saudi). On the -400, you will do 4 trips a month (very similar trips to the 777 except you will get one 'seeded' trip per month - ie. JNB or LAX). On the short-haul fleets, you will work hard although destinations are less relevant, however you will have to compromise your whole month to achieve a specific day off (as is the case with longhaul). In all cases, you will work a lot of weekends. As your seniority increases, your lifestyle will improve. At my level, I achieve either decent trips or 95% of my desired days off, not both. In the top third, you would probably achieve both. There are likely to be very few places available on the -400, although a large number are to be recruited onto the 777. BA is now advertising for Self Sponsored pilots, who would almost certainly go onto the Airbus or the 737.

The only drawback is that if you join now, you're likely to remain junior for a lot longer than perhaps you would have done in the past. Personally, I have been in seven years and I'm a third of the way up the seniority list, as I joined at the start of the retirement bulge. I have at least twenty five years remaining (depending on the retirement age) and there are people who are younger and more senior than me. ie. They will still be very senior in BA after I retire!

Sadly, for anyone joining now, the retirement bulge has ended so there will be very little movement over the next few years. Looking further ahead, since the late 80's there has been a good spread of ages joining at relatively regular intervals, so the numbers of retirements will remain reasonably constant. There is unlikely to be another 'bulge'. This is before the 2006 legislation is taken into account.

Hope this helps. Once you've got some seniority, life improves immeasurably.

Human Factor

Thanks for the heads up. I'm not sure whether I'll see a lifestyle improvement if I move, but I guess the long term prospects for stability and suchlike are there. Minimun of ten years to command versus imminent command is a trickier issue to reconcile... :confused:

How many weekends might a junior guy expect to get off per month? Are we talking zero month in month out!?

Thanks for the gen.

Seat hold issues
 

Let's say you get hired onto BA and you are put on the 737 fleet out of LGW. I believe there is a 3 year seat hold (maybe more). What is the likelihood that you could then successfully bid 777 FO? With only 3 years of seniority, what is the likelihood that you would still be on reserve (albeit on the 777 fleet) for many years to come?

Lastly, what is life like on the 737 out of LGW - positive or negative given the shorthaul lifestyle/sectors? How does it compare to shorthaul Airbus out of LHR?

Cheers