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Age Discrimination - help needed!
Hi,
I will be shortly arriving at the point at which my company will want to consign me to the scrap heap of used pilots before becoming time expired! I’m seeking information from colleagues employed by UK airlines regarding the retirement policies in their own companies. What would be helpful is the wording for such terms as:
If you’d prefer not to choke up this forum then please contact me at: Many thanks in anticipation. Packsonflite :} |
Why not retire gracefully, take up a hobby and allow your position to be filled by a more junior pilot which will have a knock on effect right down to the aspiring flying instructor (probably up to his / her neck in debt) getting their first airline job!
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All of whom will have an additional 5 years in their careers because of forthcoming age discrimination law - something that I'm being denied!!!
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I think that most of us young guys and gals will need that extra five years, just to be making the same money by the time that we get to where you are now.
I am in agreement that there needs to be some movement in the industry as too much stagnation is never a good thing. -273 |
just look at his email address - sums it all up really!
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packsonflite, you said:
"All of whom will have an additional 5 years in their careers because of forthcoming age discrimination law - something that I'm being denied!!!" But of course, that is wrong! Firstly, as you mentioned previously, retirement will NOT be delayed by 5 years, as there will be NO retirement age, so how long do you think you would like? It is also WRONG to suggest everyone will gain 5 years (or whatever YOU decide) Only people currently in their preferred jobs, will experience anything other than an indefinite delay to their aspirations! Everyone will be effectively COMPELLED to continue until they lose their medical, simply in order to recoup their career losses! If you have a half decent pension. (and with such a quaint e-mail as yours, I assume you do!) Don't try to con anybody into thinking your motivation is anything other than completely selfish! |
I can't wait to get the hell out of this industry at 55.
If you need to work longer than that, you have not managed to plan your life adequately enough. How do you know when you're gonna drop dead? Don't you want a few work free years to enjoy laying in in the mornings and getting pissed at lunchtimes, or do you really want cockpit to coffin direct? |
Well, packsonflite, I hope you learned your lesson not to ask for help on Pprune. You have to try to pick out the useful information from among the tirade of judgemental criticism from embittered wannabes resentful of the career you have built.
I would recommend one of the lo-costs who allow 60+ commanders (albeit with route restrictions) and are campaigning for our European brethren to lift the restrictions on 60+ captains; however, whether you really want to put yourself through their grinding rosters at your stage of the game is another thing entirely. I assume you have raided the BALPA archives on this question? (NB shouldn't this be in "Questions"?) Wish you the best of luck in securing future employment. |
Tandem Rotor
I used the illustration of 5 years as that is the difference between age 60, the limit that most airlines are currently enforcing, and the JAA ATPL age cut-off of 65; I can’t see that moving upwards In the short term. The whole point of the new legislation is that it gives people choice as to when they want go. The assumption that everyone will want to continue beyond their current NRD is a misconception as illustrated by Mentaleena who can’t wait to get out. My experience has been that only a relatively small number of pilots will want to stay on for a few extra years. It is always assumed that having reach NRD that one has total financial security with no commitments. It’s assumed that we all have the financial acumen of an investment banker, have been living for years on 6 figure salaries, have a yacht in the marina and at least one overseas holiday home. In reality many approaching retirement still have young families and big mortgages to support, to say nothing of their continuing financial commitment to a first family; university education doesn’t come cheap! It’s also commonly assumed that one has had a full career with the same company and that a pension when matured will have reached the Inland Revenue limit. This is also a fallacy. There are many colleagues out there who after many years of loyal service to the same company became unemployed because their employer went bust. In the worst cases they found pension fund had been plundered by the employer whilst in others they discivered that the pension fund had been seriously under-funded for many years. Shuttleworth Cheap jibe! My e-mail address is no different than you choosing Shuttleworth or someone else using Tandemrotor. Morpheme Many thanks for your support. I certainly have looked through the BALPA stuff and have also been in touch with the LTN Orange – still awaiting a response. My preferred option would however be to remain with my current employer. As to some of the responses thus far, that was entirely to be expected! Packsonflite :} |
Its not when you retire, its what you retire with thats important.
check out DO YOU REALLY THINK YOUR PENSION IS SAFE |
Whatunion
Thats certainly food for thought |
Pilots joining easyJet are contracted to age 60.
Pilots who joined more than about 2 years ago are contracted to 65, and captains over 60 are limited by the rules in a few European states, and are therefore rostered accordingly. There will probably be no change to this policy until over 60's have unlimited flying rights over Europe. Therefore, unfortunately, anyone over about 57 or 58 has little chance of getting in. Unless, of course, requirements change, or you are type-rated, current, and a TRE (on type). |
Thank you Fred,
That would explain the deafening silence since I filed my online application with them. Packs :* |
What about some aspiring pilot with a 60k loan who can't get a job because selfish old gits are flying well past their sell by date and keeping all the decent jet jobs clogged up.
Do us all a favour. Give it up!! |
srjumbo
You've already said that, haven't you anything more original? The law will be here in just over two years time so you'd probably better get used to the idea!!! |
I can't believe the selfishness of those who want you to stop doing what you want/need to.
I would like to encourage all those who can to stay on as long as possible to reduce the number of prats who ........ No need for jibes - good luck Packs. |
srjumbo
If you should choose to use the search function you will find at least two good threads here all about flying after the age of sixty etc. Possibly you are too young to know this but the original retirement age in the UK was 65. This was arbitrarily changed to sixty without there being any medical or other evidence to support this reduction. Many of us had, overnight, five years lopped off our anticipated flying careers. It is only right and proper that it should be restored as soon as possible. The brief honeymoon whilst the age was sixty is about to end but did give a lot of people an early command, life is about to return to normal.
If you could view it as such you might not be quite so bitter! Anyone able to retire at age 55 doesn't really count as they obviously work for one of the few major carriers that offers a substantial retirement scheme!:E Here are a few previous age sixty rule threads for you. |
Blue Eagle
Many thanks for that, particularly the search link. I managed to clean some very useful information. From my own recent research I offer the following: There are only three EU countries that currently hold exemptions from JAR-FCL 1.060 - Curtailment of privileges of licence holders aged 60 years or more and these are France, Italy and the Czech Republic.
http://www.jaa.nl/section1/jars/451854.pdf I was informed by BALPA that Portugal also applies the age 60 rule, but having consulted the CAA it would appear that they only apply it to those employed by Portuguese airlines. Thus the JAR-FCL restrictions apply to all others. I have a copy of the latest up to date CAA list of countries accepting pilots over age 60. If anyone would like a copy please e-mail me at: [email protected] The UK legislation that will outlaw age discrimination in accordance with the EU accord will be brought before Parliament this autumn and the consultative document, Age Matters, which is well written in plain English, is available here: http://www.dti.gov.uk/er/equality/age_consultation.pdf As has already been stated the legislation will have to be in place ready to take effect from 1st October, 2006. and finally.... Could the person who sent me a PPRUNE personal message inviting me to take part in a class action on this issue please get in touch again as I failed to save a copy of the message – must be old age!!!! Packsonflite :ok: |
Blue Eagle
You couldn't be MORE wrong if you tried. I work for a loco and it is precisely that fact that made me make up my mind to get out at 55. Money/work is not all one's life should be about. My view is that after n number of years flying, being phoned out of bed at a crazy hour of a day, being sent taxiing around the country, being not fed and worked to unbelieveable "LEGAL" limits, one has a duty to look after themselves and have earnt the right to not work. So your assumption that 55-ers must be working for a main line somewhere needs to go back on the drawing board mate. |
What a fascinating thread - partially for the subject matter, and partially because of the attitudes being displayed. From a selfish point of view there are a substantial number of pilots who came late to the profession, and spent their life savings to get there. The extra five years could make a huge difference to that group.
I'd like to belive the "p:mad:s off & take up golf you old git" brigade were merely being humorous or ironic, but it does appear that there are rather more of them than that. If wanting to stay until 65 is selfish (and it isn't), surely wanting someone with a good career and a current medical to leave so you can get a job is even more so? |
Would someone please explain
what gives people like srjumbo the right to demand that experienced pilots like packsonflite and others be forced to retire possibly prematurely (i.e. they can still operate a/c safely etc etc), just because they (srjumbo et al) are in debt? I think I'll just go and get into huge debt at Harvard Business School and then demand that Bill Gates gives me his job! The world owes no-one a living.:rolleyes:
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F,D&H
From a selfish point of view there are a substantial number of pilots who came late to the profession, and spent their life savings to get there. The extra five years could make a huge difference to that group. However, for the UK and European airlines, this argument is getting pointless. For ages, BA and elsewhere, the CRA is endlessly debated between the seniors (want to stay on) and juniors (who want to seniors to go), is ~50:50, and everyone seems to hold a strong viewpoint. With the 2006 legislation - forget it. Its the law, we all have to comply, and we should stop slagging each other off. Quite how the Licensing Age limits are dealt with is another matter - but its not going to be pilots who decide it... Just all IMHO... NoD |
NoD - I agree, delaying the retirement age means longer time to command, and effectively it means an extra 5 years at F/O wages. If you get your first job at age 35 the extra 5 years means you are looking at a 30 year career rather than a 25 year one. Financially that that's worth about £175-200k, but the extra 5 years of pension payments will make a bigger difference.
As you say however, it's the law so arguing about it is pretty fruitless. I do believe it's a good law (for once), even though I am one of the people who will take longer to get command as a direct result. |
NoD
I think that you're only partly correct in your assertion. Everyone assumes that raising the maximum age to 65 will result in no retirements for a five year period. This would just not be the case. I know of many colleagues who can't wait to retire and given that the NRD in most UK airlines is currently 60, the vast majority will want to retire when their pensions mature. I would agree that there may well be a slowing down in career flows, but it certainly won't become static for 5 years. After 1st October 2006, it will become illegal to even state an NRD in a contract. Pilots will thus be able to retire when they judge that they can afford to do so on the basis of time in their respective pension schemes. That assumes of course that in the future company pension schemes will still be available!!! Packsonflite |
Adding 5 years to the end of your career will (on average) cutoff 5 years at the beginning of the next generation's careers.
However that is your prerogative, and does not deserve some of the comments you have received. The only thing I would ask if people stay longer, that some of the minority "whingers" who stay on, cheer up. Having escaped to the LHS I don't suffer it anymore, but F/Os I fly with still get the "I hate the airline/wife/world" bitter rantings. If you don't like it GET OUT and get a life you do enjoy. |
A short story from the west side of the Atlantic…..at my company, we have a large cadre of management pilots (no rotation from line to management). Some flight qualified folks worked solely in the training center (Sims). The company decided that after 60 (max FAA 121), they would reduce their salary because of their diminished status (not 121 flight qualified after 60).
A group of them got together, went before the EEOC (Equal Employment Opportunity Commission), and said their job and responsibilities did not change. The commission agreed and they are receiving previous pay grade. And yes, the company then closed the door on this particular management position/description. It is now a rotation position (Ops/Standards/Training/etc.). |
srjumbo
The next time one of us "selfish old gits" give you a line or sim check, I hope you'll show a bit more respect for our superior maturity and experience. You don't get far in this industry by expecting it to owe you a living!! |
Right Way Up
I can't completely agree with you on your first point. Adding up to 5 years to the careers of pilots at or approaching the current cut-off won't necessarily add the same amount to those coming up behind. If you assume that it takes 33 and 1/3 years to reach the maximum pension, many will opt to leave at that point. For example a cadet pilot joining a company at age 20 will have a full pension by the time he's 53. It will be up to him how much longer he stays after that. Similarly someone who's joined at a later age will still be able to get in enough service to enable them to look forward to a financially secure retirement. On your second point, I would certainly agree that there's are some wingers out there, and not just in the LHS! Speaking for myself, I don't believe that I'm one of those as I love the job and am very happy with my current employer. My view on the latter may well change if they force me out at age 60. PacksonFlite |
mentaleena
Cheer Up!
My comment about retirement at 55 was a friendly dig at BA, CX, QF, KLM etc. etc. where the retirement is enforced, not meant for people like you who are voluntarily leaving at 55 because they are fed up. |
PonF
I think that you're only partly correct in your assertion. Everyone assumes that raising the maximum age to 65 will result in no retirements for a five year period. This would just not be the case If you delay all the retirements by X years After 1st October 2006, it will become illegal to even state an NRD in a contract. Pilots will thus be able to retire when they judge that they can afford to do so on the basis of time in their respective pension schemes NoD |
srjumbo
Well you are going to be a pilot that no airline would want aren't you! Why do you begrduge people who scrimped and scraped, and might very well have spent a fortune on getting into an airline. Some might have been in the same airline for 20 or 30 years! Well wait your bleedin' turn my boy, everything comes to those who wait. But......................how long have you been trying? How many times have you been turned down? What is it that turns people off you? Might it be your attitude - you have plenty of that. In 2006 the EU law will state that employees have a right to decide if they want to retire at the 'current' (whatever that is) retiring age, and they will be able to opt out if they so wish and stay. However, certains elements of aviation law have to be legislated in the EU to make it standard. Word has it that it will be 65 and EVEN the French will have NO right to arrest a pilot overflying France - as in the past.:mad: :mad: So sit back dear boy and grow up into the real world where things change almost every day. Today is not your luck day. But then that might never come if you maintain that attitude. And do take my advice, NEVER upset a trainer! |
Took a look at srjumbo's pprune profile - he claims that he's an SFO on B747s, something that makes his irrational outpourings all the more puzzling. If he works for either BA or Virgin then he must be on a half decent salary, however if he was with EAT then he has my wholehearthed sympathy as I've been in the same situation myself. Of course it's not beyond the bounds of possibility that he's just another wind-up merchant!! :mad:
......EVEN the French will have NO right to arrest a pilot overflying France - as in the past. The French continue to drive a coach and horses through various aspects of EU law that don't suit them, perhaps it's time we applied the same principle in respect of this issue. The real oddity in the French situation is that, prior to the introduction of JAR-FCL 1, the French age limit was 65!!! PacksonFlite :ok: |
BlueEagle
Alrighty then. |
PonF
You and I will be at a variance. I would like to be able to retire at 55, as it suggested on my contract when I joined, after getting a command at the time that it looked like it would happen for the last 9 years. Others will feel differently. The item that we are all over looking on the issue of this forthcoming legislational change is the effect it will have on the school leavers of 2006/7/8/9/10. As each year passes, people usually retire from their positions throughout the workforce. New people enter the workforce, and take up these positions. Come late 2006, this will slow down dramatically. It will be bad for our children or grandchildren. |
I understand that the JAA system will be replaced around the end of the year by EASA, and that LHS operation up to age 65 will be enshrined in EU legislation. Individual states will not then have the right to vary the conditions.
As a rather wrinkly person myself, I think that the performance of the older pilot can vary enormously, just as it can in other age groups. The experience advantage makes a lot of difference, and I feel we have a lot to offer. |
BA_jumbo_SFO
I do agree with your position. In fact it reinforces what I’ve said earlier. I believe that the vast majority will want to retire as soon as they have made adequate financial arrangements for their retirement. You are obviously in the envious position of having come through the system of a major airline and by the time you reach 55 will have achieved the pension arrangements that will be satisfactory by that time. You must remember that there are others who are not in such a fortunate position. i.e. those who came into flying at a later age and those who have lost pensions in failed companies. As to blocking the career opportunities of those still at school; yes that will be the case, but this issue will by then be enshrined in law and they too will be protected from age discrimination when they approach the end of their careers. |
packsonflite
...........no, sorry, your assumption is wrong. I joined relatively late, with no prior pension. I believe I have set my goals reasonably, my family and I try and live within our means, and try not to be too greedy. I hope to retire at 55, and hope that I dont have to be quite as carefull with my pennies as my parents. I think there are a lot of greedy people in the industry. Sad really. I hope your live to enjoy some of your retirement! |
A wider look at the age issue...
Understandably, many senior colleagues aren't best pleased when an aspiring youngster wants them to take up gardening and "free up a seat" ! ....
But equally, comments like "wait your turn" and "the world doesn't owe you a living" aren't helpful. I would suggest that few of today's senior pilots had debts of £ 50,000 to £ 80,000 hanging over their heads at the start of their career !. (Even larger if people pay their own type / line training !). The new guys are keen (desperate) to work. Some of the best people that I have flown with and learned from were in their 60s and 70s. But most people either won't keep their class one medical or won't have the desire to work on through their 60s. Should there be a "finish now" age or should it be "subject to medical" ?. It ought to be the latter, but ...... Taking another angle, myself and a number of friends came into commercial flying in our late thirties / early fourties - and have been looking for our first flying jobs for many months. (Some guys over a year). But the phrase "age commensurate with experience" comes up quite often. (No new guys over thirty it would seem - too much of a training risk perhaps ??? !!! - Despite first time passes from some of the best flight schools in the country ...). Any advice from the senior guys on this one ?..... |
Good God! Some people just can't help themselves, can they?
It should, ideally, be up to the individual when they retire, medicals and proficiency being suitable. Why should a 55 year old be forced out on the flimsy justification of allowing an AFI to move one step up the ladder? It doesn't work that way in other industries, so why should it in ours? Accusing someone of selfishnesh because they won't retire and allow you to have their position smacks rather heavily of hypocrisy! As the man states, there are all sorts of inocent, sometimes selfless reasons why a 55 year old may not be in a financial position where retirement is desireble. It's a shame that those on the lower rungs, such as me, will be held up by those staying on at the top that little bit longer, but a specific rate of career progression was not part of the deal when most joined the profession, and it's not unreasonable to ask people to think of what they'd be doing if the shoe was on the other foot. |
As regards BA, I, along with a number of others, are hearing the increase in CRA may come sooner rather than later.
The reasons for this are purely financial as far as the BA beancounters are concerned in that any increase in CRA will be accompanied by a 'tweak' in the pension contributions/scheme that will mean the deep dark black hole in NAPS suddenly starts to fill surprisingly quickly. BA wins in two ways. Beating the 2006 date they can declare themselves a 'forward looking, staff orientated' company whilst behind the scenes the pension coffers will be recuperated. Overall a slightly better pension for those who sign on the dotted line but certainly not worth 5 years at the current accrual rate. :) |
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