Tandemrotor. You suggest that there may be a deferral of the Oct 2006 retirement legislation. Very unlikely. We signed up for this in the early 1990s. The completion date was 2002. When France and UK failed to meet that date, the other EU countries at the Berlin Summit gave us a final one-off exemption until Dec 2006 to comply. Failure to act by Dec2006 will now involve an automatic case at the European Court which can in theory mean unlimited fines. Individuals will also be able to sue the UK government for failure to act in accordance with EU law. EU law counts for more than BA Balpa ballots in this case.

I agree WWW is a bull!!!!! artist.

Now for a serious question on the impact of the European Law on outlawing discrimination on the grounds of age or disability:

I am an SFO with BA. Progression up the seniority list is based on either expansion, or retirement. That is, when one person retires, we all move up the list by one number.

When I joined the company I could reasonably expect to retire at age 55, having achieved a command at some suitable stage. One could "plan" a career on this basis.

As I understand it, the Legislation must be in place by late 2006. BA has not said when it will raise the retirement age, but JH has said he expects it to happen in about September of 2006.

If things stand as they are today, I would have the seniority for a jumbo command in 2007 or 2008. If the retirement age is lifted, and a large number of pilots remain on their current types past age 55, there will be no progression up the seniority list, for up to 5 years.

Will I have any grounds for legal, or any other action?

BALPA seem to have their collective heads in the sand, trying to avoid taking either side.

Any thoughts?

Perhaps this is because they represent equal numbers of those for and against an increase in retirement age. However, I do know that both BA and BALPA are actively looking at all the implications of the proposed legislation.

Rod Eddington was reported to have said words to the effect that BA will not make a decision until midnight December 31st 2005 otherwise they will be sued by one disgruntled party or another if they act preemptively.

Your grievance that you made plans based on the conditions prevailing at the time of your employment is understandable but really doesn't bear scrutiny. Life changes and sometimes you win sometimes you don't.

I took out a mortgage in the 80s when interest rates were well below 10% knowing I could afford it. When interest rates peaked at over 15% I couldn't. Funny thing was the government didn't believe that the disruption of my plans was sufficient reason to lower interest rates again.

What it will probably mean is that you have to work a few years longer and will have had to wait a few years more for command.

What has the legislation to do with BALPA? They are working closely with BA trying to resolve the real issues over 2006. I appreciate your only concern is "your" jumbo command. However, bearing in mind that legislation for 2006 effectively bans seniority and pay increments altogether, unless BA is willing to justify them later in court (and be liable if their reasoning is not strong enough), and I think you might find the issue a little bigger than your jumbo command.
I would think being able to sue a company for obeying the law a, errr, little optimistic!

I find it slightly amusing that someone should be worried about whether or not their command will come at a particular time, when what they should really be contemplating is whether or not they will actually be employed at all at that time.
(see deserting rats thread)

You find it amusing? Nice chap.

Diesel, sorry to have sounded callous, maybe amused was not a good choice of words.

What I meant is that I find it hard to believe someone worrying about when his LH command will happen when the writing on the wall says he'll be lucky to still be employed at all.

Snooky

Fair enough.Computers can make things seem harsher than intended.

As an interesting aside I just heard our Longhaul chief pilot (or general manager as they are called now) has resigned to go to Emirates. Should us BA types start to worry?

Worry? Nah...... The Guy had 18 months to retire, He was never going to make Flight Ops Director, He's already got a big pension. He's off to enjoy some time in the sun at a less 'battle weary' company.

Sound good to me:ok:

I work for BA as a llicensed Engineer and currently halfway through my self funded training. Do the BA pilots here think that somebody in my present position will have a chance of joining internaly if as people assume, they will have a job getting the right kind of people. I have been with the Airline for 15 years and although we all moan i happen to think its ok.

Always worth a try; although I know of none that have succeeded. In the past, they (BA) seemed to want people to 'earn their spurs' elsewhere, before being allowed near any of their nice (definitely not shiny) jets.

Good Luck!

Although, if you are passed 30, then I'd advise forgetting it. What doesn't seem to have come up in any of this thread is the fact that 2006 legislation or not- the retirement 'bulge' ends very soon. In a couple of years time the retirements will be running at just 30 or so a year - for a very long time, not the current rate of nearly 200 a year.

I was given the retirement figures projected forward until my own retirement in 15 (20?) years time. Despite being only 33 when I joined, my seniority (sic) number when I retire will be around 770. i.e. When I retire there will still be about 20% of the pilot workforce senior to me! To put this in perspective, I might - repeat might - be eligble for a long-haul command in around 10 years time - that will be 17 years in the right hand seat with this company alone!

And it gets better! Anyone joining today will be behind all of the 'youngsters' that came across from CityFlyer a few years back, not to mention the even younger 'youngsters' that were cadets. All of these people are in your way now - and will be in your way when you retire! Unless you too are a 'youngster'

Remember - in BA - seniority is EVERYTHING!

Just in case the message isn't clear.

SENIORITY IS EVERYTHING!!!

Right, I'm hoarse from the shouting, but I wish somebody had emphasised to me how important seniority is in BA before I took the plunge - I may still have jumped - but I certainly wouldn't do so now. (Remember, I was 33 when I joined, if you're a youngster you may be OK)

Cheers,

Underdog

To reaffirm that, I'm 30 with 25 years to do, having done 7. Assuming the new legislation didn't happen, I would retire at 55 with seniority of around 100. If I go on to 60, which seems increasingly likely, I may make it into the top 40. Either way, I'm likely to be a Captain (either longhaul or shorthaul) for around twenty years (assuming we stay in business). There are a great number of people who are the same age and considerably senior to me or younger with similar seniority. We will all be Captains for a very long time, therefore anyone joining today had better be either a) very young or b) have no aspirations to a BA command.

Sorry, but that's just the way it is. That notwithstanding, if you are prepared to accept the above, the money is pretty good, rosters are set in stone (more or less) and as you get more senior as a First Officer, your lifestyle will improve tremendously (choice of trips/days off) and current T&Cs are good, although the company are doing their level best to erode those (not that it's any different anywhere else). Just don't mention the pension.

BA staff
 

Rocketboots,

I'm ex-BA staff currently in training too - check your PM.

Best regards,

Desk-pilot

Gentlemen I am not a bullsh...r.

The information I have given was broadly accurate and to enable candidates to evaluate the problems of joining BA when you are approaching 30 or 30+.

I have checked our agreements and the number of increments are 24 not 25 or 28 as I said earlier, that was the only error.

It would seem to be news to many BA pilots that the retirement age will soon have to change by law.

To those interested watch out for the white paper this October.

The legislation will pass through parliament during the winter of 2004 spring 2005.

Anyone who does not have a command by end 2005 is likely to have to wait, it is inevitable.

The airline is not expanding.

If you want to blame anyone blame the EU.

I think the days of BOAC are gone when groundcrew touched their forelocks to aircrew and the chaufeur was waiting at the bottom of the steps to whisk you to the Hilton.

Its all cheap and cheerful even at BA so if your expectations are dashed at the thought of having no respect for what you do then perhaps you should try some more mundane type of work.

I have mixed and matched from working on building sites as a labourer to living it up on megga stopovers. I know which I prefer and remind myself whenever I think the job sucks.

Flying is still a good job and BA are perhaps one of the better employers when you look at all the moaning on the threads about some of the lesser Fly by nights.

Just the way I think but then who am I!

Coop & BA Bear (BA= Bad Ass)

Reference the query whether it helps being employed by BA in another position before an internal job offer as a pilot.

A contemperary of mine at a previous company had joined BA as an engineering cadet and then left them to gain flying experience once he got his ATPL.

Several years later he reapplied as a DEP and they did not accept him. Can't think or see why.

Said individual is now a A330 Captain with Emirates.

I am sure he is not losing too much sleep over BA's decision a few years ago.

Probably the same thing that stops most serving skippers kids from being accepted( with the very odd exception)
Unless you are the Mgr Pilot recruitment , of course....
Then you can fly over on Concorde and pick him up when he graduates too.

SNOOKY

Yes I am worried whether the company will survive, but one management pilot leaving BA 18 months before his retirement age to take up a management position does not mean we are going down the tubes. Perhaps it indicates our managers are employable outside BA, as has happened in the past.

BOAC

Why dont you rejoin BALPA? Why do you hide in the BA only bit of PPRUNE?

NIGELONDRAFT

You have your A320 command, and have fallen on your feet somewhat. Well done. Others of us havent gone for a command as yet. My point is, the change in legislation may, if all those employed elect to stay until, say, 60, will affect every pilot in BA. There will be an effective FREEZE in place for 5 years.

M Mouse

"Rod Eddington was reported to have said words to the effect that BA will not make a decision until midnight December 31st 2005 otherwise they will be sued by one disgruntled party or another if they act preemptively."..................I thought the date would be DEC 31 2006, not 2005

Unless we voice our concerns, and BALPA polls us for our views, prior to legislation implementation, there will be NO new commands, and very few seat changes.

You acted on the Pensions cap, why not on this?

Come on BALPA, you need to represent ALL your members

BAJSFO

Q1 You answered your own question. Any 'representative' organisation that tears up signed agreements in order to disadvantage a minority group and advantage a majority group does not warrant a 1% subscription from ME

Q2 I do not, but it is a policy that I recommend to you. One would think that the logical place for calls for BACC action would be on the BACC forum, no?

Great to see the usual BA bickering here in public - it must give BA management great hope.

Since I had no intention of joining this thread, bye-bye. I'm 'out to grass' soon, anyway.

Here are the BA pay Rates to enable candidates to make an informed choice about BA.

CAPTAIN
................LH........................MH................ ...............SH
24........120700........ .......104600.......................102300
23........117800................102400...................... .100200
22........114900................100200...................... ...98100
21........112000..................98000..................... ....96000
20........109100..................95800..................... ....93900
19........106200..................93600..................... ....91800
18........103300..................91400..................... ....89700
17........100400..................89200..................... ....87600
16..........97500..................87000.................... .....85500
15..........94600..................84800.................... .....83400
14..........91700..................82600.................... .....81300
13..........88800..................80400.................... .....79200
12..........85900..................78200.................... .....77100
11..........83000..................76000.................... .....75000
10..........80100..................73800.................... .....72900
9..........77200..................71600..................... ....70800
8..........74300..................69400..................... ....68700
7..........71400..................67200..................... ....66600
6..........68500..................65000..................... ....64500
5..........65600..................62800..................... ....62400
4..........62700..................60600..................... ....60300
3..........59800..................58400..................... ....58200
2..........56900..................56200..................... ....56100
1..........54000..................54000..................... ....54000




F/O
..................LH.......................MH............... ...............SH
24...........90525..................78450................... ......76725
23...........88350..................76800................... ......75150
22...........86175..................75150................... ......73575
21...........84000..................73500................... ......72000
20...........81825..................71850................... ......70425
19...........79650..................70200................... ......68850
18...........77475..................68550................... ......67275
17...........75300..................66900................... ......65700
16...........73125..................65250................... ......64125
15...........70950..................63600................... ......62550
14...........68775..................61950................... ......60975
13...........66600..................60300................... ......59400
12...........64425..................58650................... ......57825
11...........62250..................57000................... ......56250
10...........60075..................55350................... ......54675
9...........57900..................53700.................... .....53100
8...........55725..................52050.................... .....51525
7...........53550..................50400.................... .....49950
6...........51375..................48750.................... .....48375
5...........49200..................47100.................... .....46800
4...........47025..................45450.................... .....45225
3...........44850..................43800.................... .....43650
2...........42675..................42150.................... .....42075
1...........40500..................40500.................... .....40500



To the above add £10 per flying hour for cpts £8 per flying hour for copilots.

Also add £2.50 for each hour on duty at base to off duty at base which are allowances for meals etc.

Also add £10 per night Cpts and F/Os for each night out of the UK

The above variable amounts work out to about about 12% of basic for Cpts
and 21% of basic for First Officers

Just to recap

At least 15 to 20 yrs to a command if you join now assuming we stay with the same number of hulls and most pilots leave at 55 not 60 or 65.

You start at pay point 1 and go up one point each year.

When you get a command you transfer to the Capt structure at your current point.

Finally LH = 777 and 747

MH= 767 757 (Combined Fleet)

SH= 737 A320 A319 A321

and remember NO pension related to final salary any more..... you just put money into the scheme and you get what it is worth when you retire What you will get back is pure guesswork. You will alas be the fist of the poor pension BA pilots.

Hope this is of use