Reciprocal agreement with the EU on the transfer of UK CAA Flight Crew Licences.
 

To seek a reciprocal agreement between the UK and EU with the transfer of UK CAA Flight Crew Licences to EASA member states to avoid applicants having to convert their licences by retaking all fourteen ATPL exams in an EASA state, a skills tests, an EASA ELP test and class 1 EASA medical.
More detailsSign this petitionhttps://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/578133

What happened? Wasn't Brexit all about the endless opportunities? (Rant over)

ps good luck, good initiative :ok:

No, I won't sign it.
The EU offered the UK to remain part of EASA and the offer was turned down.

However, I would propose a pathway for those European pilots that were unable to transfer their license to any other EASA authority because they were working for a UK operator.

For the others, Brexit means Brexit and if you don't have a EU passport you won't get that far.

You realise British people were also "European pilots that were unable to transfer their license to any other EASA authority because they were working for a UK operator." :ugh:

Were, but are no longer. So there is a difference between those continuing to be EU citizens and those that are not anymore, not forced, but because they wanted to be out.

Not entirely sure what purpose the above animosity serves... last time i checked we were pilots, not politicians.

No animosity. Just a fact. Or then we can start demanding reciprocal agreement between the EASA and the FAA, JCAB, CASA, TC, SACAA, NZCAA, etc.

And a Brit simply no longer has the right to live and work in the EU.

Isn’t progress wonderful.

Why are you lot conflating EASA licences with nationality? No connection. So the British are mad for deciding to leave such pillars of efficiency as the EU Joint (vaccine) Procurement agency. ;-) Ok, we get it, time to move on, dear spurned lovers...

I am always amazed at the level of vitriol the internet attracts. The issue of reciprocity of licences is really one of fairness. The U.K. airlines that I worked for welcomed Europeans and I was personally delighted to fly with them. We do the same job. Same tests. The national airlines in the European sector will generally employ their own first mainly on the grounds of language which I suppose is fair enough. BJ if you don’t want to sign please don’t however it is bewildering that you feel the need to inform us.

One valid point still stands though: assuming a bilateral agreement or a facilitated licence conversion process were in place, what would be the point? UK nationals can’t work in Europe anymore unless they hold an unrestricted EU passport - forget a working visa, no chance in this market! The only EASA licence job in the UK I could think of would be Ryanair.

Banana Joe - I passed 14 EASA exams, why should they no longer be valid for issue of an EASA ATPL for example if I meet all the other 3rd country requirements?

Banana Joe and Bones - UK citizens have the right to live and work in Ireland, plus there are jobs in the UK (Ryanair), and outside of the EU, that require EASA licences for various reasons.

The UK is recognising EASA licences for 2 years, and providing a pathway to gain a UK licence, which will benefit UK and EU citizen EASA licence holders. Is it unreasonable to ask for reciprocation to be considered?

Banana Joe

Not so simple as you seem to think . I’m a Brit and I live and work in the EU .. and continue to do so without any issues at all .

But you won't be able to change country.

As for Ireland, get a validation. The rest is cherry picking.

If you have passed the 14 exams before 31st December 2020, you can still use them for an EASA licence application; having said that you will need a new EASA initial medical. If you need more details, let me know.

Right to live and work in Ireland is NOT the same as unrestricted right to live and work in the EU. Clearly stated on Ryanair website. I guess you could ask directly Ryanair HR dept for clarification? Have a look on LinkedIn perhaps.

I can’t think of any outfit in the UK other than RYR requiring an EASA licence only. But you could be well right, i’m not disputing that!

Not quite. The UK CAA is only recognising EASA licences issued PRIOR 31st December 2020. For EASA licences issued after, no recognition.
Similarly, the pathway you mention to obtain UK part-FCL licences only applies to those who previously HELD a UK issued EASA licence AND SOLI’ed out.

Please don’t take it personally, but the risks of a hard Brexit have been obvious since 2018. EASA and the UK CAA have been very clear on their respective websites.

I really find this whole story terribly sad: I’m genuinely sorry for all those fallen through the cracks. But ultimately it was the UK that wanted out; EASA membership was offered and indeed wanted by the UK CAA. However the Transport Secretary had different ideas.

I truly hope some compromise can be found; anything from rejoining EASA or a facilitated licence conversion would great (eg get a new medical, sit Air Law and a skill test?). As for the petition, I can’t sign it because I haven’t got the right to; I shall however share it among my colleagues and friends!

Bones, thank you for the reply.

If you know how a UK CPL holder (former UK EASA CPL holder) who meets all the other EASA requirements for issue of an ATPL to a 3rd country applicant can use their 14 EASA exam passes taken in the UK by 31/12/20 I would be very interested.

There are flying jobs in Ireland which don't require unrestricted right to live and work in the EU, but do require an EASA licence - Banana Joe's suggestion of a validation is a more difficult and short term solution.

Ryanair will accept applications from UK passport holders to work on the UK AOC, but only if they have an EASA licence.

Recognition applies to any holders (of any nationality or citizenship) of current EASA licences issued by any EASA state up to and including 31/12/20, unless you applied to SOLI transfer out of the UK by that date, in which case it applies to EASA licences issued up to and including 31/3/21.

The EASA to UK pathway is open from 1/4/21 to anyone (of any nationality or citizenship) who currently holds an EASA licence issued by any EASA state up to and including 31/12/20, unless you applied to SOLI out of the UK by that date, in which case there is no restriction on issue date.

I'm suggesting reciprocation, so a system for those who completed all the EASA theoretical and practical training in the UK, and were issued an EASA licence by the UK CAA (valid for life at time of issue) prior to us leaving the EU. Since 1/1/21 we are no longer in EASA so licences issued in the UK after that date are unfortunately no longer equivalent, and vice-versa.

EASA and the CAA may have been clear on their websites, but some of your fellow pilots have been instructed by their employers on what they could do. Others will have been unable to SOLI transfer out of the UK in order to retain their well earned EASA licence as if they had an LPC due at a UK employer between receiving their new EASA licence, and being able to apply for and receive their UK licence after 1/4/21, they would have needed an EASA licence TRE and sim/aircraft to do it in.

I thank the EU for offering to allow us to stay in EASA, and I wish we had, but there were certain legal and ideological ties that would have involved which were deemed unpalatable given the result of the democratic process, so a political decision was made. This should not interfere with legitimate, reasonable and perfectly sensible agreements being made for the benefit of UK and EU citizen aircrew moving forward.

https://info.caa.co.uk/uk-eu-transit...ercial-pilots/

This is a case of professional pilots (and many others, in other industries) being held hostage to politics. We have a self-obsessed, inflexible, bureaucratic monster engaging with a stubborn, petulant and immature government that wants to turn the clock back 100 years. Not a great recipe for progress.

In the meantime, the only thing left to do to repair this mess is to engage with our political representatives, although my concern is those in a position to make things happen are simply not interested.

I can understand the frustration caused by the choices of the UK government. And of course it is a course of action to petition said government to change its mind.

However, there is of course another party to any such agreement, and the situation has now changed. There is a huge surplus of pilots in the EU to begin with, without having to accommodate third country immigrant workers competing for jobs and driving down wages even more than they are now already. In the end, the EU is responsible for the wellbeing of its own citizens, not those of third countries. Therefore, there is of course a justified case to be made to make it easier for EU citizens to reclaim their EASA license, not so much for non-EU citizens.

The EU never demanded license acceptance by the UK, it was the unilateral choice of the UK to grant that, most probably driven by the inability to exchange former UK issued EASA licenses to valid UK licenses in a timely manner and under lobbying from UK airlines, who, unlike their employees, sometimes do get heard at government level.

Well it all seems to be a bit confused I think.
DHL UK still seem to be able to fly point to point in Europe. Have all the DHL pilots SOLI’ed out? Could be a storm brewing if they haven’t and the airframes have to transfer to the D reg...

Isn’t sourcing funding and completing pilot training complex enough without this problem. What precedence do we set for the next generation when we can’t even recognise that one or the other is exactly the same.
Utter shambles and those involved should be ashamed.

I signed this petition and shared it across all my contacts.

Please don't turn this into a stupid political discussion guys. We are pilots here, we just want to fly...
Most people affected by Brexit regarding their FCL licenses either weren't eligible to vote in the Brext referendum (because they weren't British nationals), or voted to stay in the EU. It's a bit daft to tell UK LICENCED pilots (not necessarilly British nationals, many of them in fact EU nationals like myself) to just shut up and accept the consequences of something that was never even within the realms of their control...

Dumbest thing was to ask the general population whether it was better to leave the EU or not as 90% of the voters did not have an damned clue about the political and economical consequences of voting yes or no. Those are the results. Anyway, UK/EASA should have mutual recognitions... anything different is just ridiculous.

could not agree more

As pilots theres little that truly separates our skills and knowledge other than bureaucrats. Let’s stick together.

Let's first sort all EU jobless pilots, then we'll discuss that. Now the UK is a third country, and the UK voted for it.

But I am an EU jobless pilot. Just happen to have a UK licence. Now what?

olster
It’s really good you were welcomed by the U.K. airlines as I guess you are European.
I am a U.K. national And worked for a European airline and let’s just say your experience differs from mine slightly!
Things got even worse for everyone on this side of the pond when the EU got involved years ago
Saying that we are all pilots examined and trained to a standard and should stick together, hell we all know once politicians get involved things only change for the worse.
Why fight amongst ourselves?

Banana Joe

You sound like you'd be a great day out to fly with:rolleyes: Point was made quite well above, we all want to fly and have been hindered by politics. A license from a first world country is a valid license. For the record I have an EASA license, working for an EU airline and living in the EU. I have no skin in this game, but what's good for one, is good for all. Banana Joe, you don't know where your next job may be.

Banana Joe

True, but keep in mind that a lot of those voters would have had troubles in deciding whether to go for a double cheeseburger or a fish burger... let alone deciding the future of their Country. Those are the limits of democracy.

Although I have no problem with granting all pre brexit atpl holders a blanket exemption to be issued with an easa atpl. The problem is that should easa give uk caa atpl holders, easa atpls going forward. The uk caa could and would be able to relax standards. At the end of the day the uk isn't part of easa anymore and anything could happen with regards to atpl issuing requirements. In my opinion it would be reckless for easa to give such a blanket exemption without first entering some sort of negotiations (witch in all fairness will happen at some point in the coming years).
Then there is of course the point of fairness, as has been mentioned previously. There are hoards of other pilots world wide, with third country licenses who would undoubtedly also like to have the opportunity to be issued with an easa atpl. How fair would it be to only grant this to uk licence holders and not of say australia or argentina.

Look, it's very easy: UK licence holders had an EASA licence up and until the end of 2020. On 1 January 2021, their previously held EASA licence was retroactively removed and taken away from them. Do you call that fair?

It has absolutely nothing to do with Australia or Argentina. UK pilots were and continue to be trained to exactly the same Part-FCL requirements as the rest of EASA pilots. Most importantly, UK "WAS" EASA. Australia or Argentina have never been EASA countries. There is no precedent for an EASA Member State leaving and becoming a Third Country so no other case is comparable to this one.

As I've said in a previous post, for current EU citizens that held a EASA license before 31 January 2021 I would support a facilitated pathway. In an ideal world, that means just a couple of papers to sign to have your license with ratings issued.

It might sound callous, but the question of fairness is actually beside the point. It was a clear, and well known, consequence of leaving a regulatory area and moving into another. EASA published its first guideline about that in March 2018, there was enough time to figure out what to do. I'm sure there was a possibility for an reciprocal agreement on licenses, same as there was a clear cut offer for visa free touring for artists. But, unlike artists, flight crew licenses have a very direct and immediate safety implication. And it is up to the issuing authority to police that. Which means invalidating licenses, removing privileges or other means of curtailing license privileges in case of problems on the line (incidents, accidents), medical issues and so on. Within the EASA area the rules are developed and published by EASA, but the enforcement is up to local authorities, both under the supervision of a legal system that at its final arbiter has the ECJ and as its basic rulemaking authority the European Parliament. And EASA has direct authority over local authorities.

With the hard brexit for services, which was the clear cut aim of the current UK administration, the CAA was no longer under the authority of EASA, the European Parliament and the ECJ. Therefore, there was no way to be sure that proper policing of licenses takes place any longer, especially with the more and more wide usage of Henry VII powers by UK ministers including junior ministers in all matters previously regulated by the EU.

There still seems to be a way to regain your EASA license without having to do all the tests again, and for anyone out of work or on furlough, now is the time to get cracking and jump on that possibility. Any possible agreement between the EU and the UK (and of course agreements always remain possible), will most likely take a few years if it is possible with the current UK administration to begin with. For EU citizens there is of course always the possibility to contact your local MEP, work through the EU commissions citizens participation project and put pressure on your local government which, after all, has a seat in the council.

Denti

There is a way to ensure anything pre 1st jan 2021 is properly policed and that is because it was then under the jurisdiction of EASA. Failing to recognise that previous standards were met for the sake of gaining new licences in MS is absolute codswallop and helps nobody.

Contact Approach, you knew what was coming. It was clear and both EASA and the UK CAA advised the current UK administration. Why didn't you convert your license?

My employer had to ground and terminate 6 contractors on the long haul fleet because they were confident common sense would prevail. It won't. It never will with the current muppets in the administrations on both sides of the channel.

It’s not about me. I hold an EASA licence.

I’m able to think beyond myself and for the sake of my kids or anyone else who has saved up and paid thousands of GBP/Euros to complete EASA training courses to be met by a global pandemic, a political s**t storm and then to lose previously gained credentials needlessly so. How is this situation fair on them? Honouring pre-Brexit EASA training / licences would not have been an unreasonable nor difficult thing to have implemented, it’s how it worked when JAR became EASA.

Those of the opinion this situation can be justified simply care for themselves and sod the rest. Pathetic. Frankly that mentality isn’t welcome on my flightdeck irrespective of where your homeland lies.

We share a common goal and interest and that is simply to do our job. Last I checked the UK lot still knew how to fly aeroplanes pretty well before and after Brexit.

Nothing has truly changed from a pilots perspective.

Indeed there was, the SOLI transfer was possible without any problems until december 31st for a reason, and actually advised by both the UK CAA and EASA. When i had my last UK bound simulator event in december the trainer told me that his company had switched a fair share of their UK based trainer to a non-UK EASA license to be able to sign EASA licenses in the new year, apparently companies did know that as well as many individual pilots, there are numerous thread over the last few years about SOLI transfers on this very forum for a reason.

And of course, since January 1st there has been no official partnership between CAA and EASA, therefore EASA and EASA national authorities do not have any knowledge whatever did happen to license holders and their previously held privileges, after all, it has been nearly four months now.

I'd love to have a FAA ticket and have the ability to work in the US, but such is life... :hmm:

I am sure an EASA license will be the least of their problems for your kids. For current professionals instead, they are supposed to think and act accordingly with the information available and not hope for "common sense to prevail".

Except for EU citizens who happen to be living in the UK.

And anyway it seems that if the EASA ATPL exams were passed in under the authority of a current EASA country, one doesn't need to resit 14 ATPL exams. Look into that.