According to the many, many pro brexit posts on the JB thread this is not true. WTO rules they shouted, We thrived outside the EU before we shall do so again, they said.

It's funny how its getting more and more difficult to find anyone that voted for brexit these days, A couple of years ago they were all standing outside Westminster waving great big union flags around.

Turin,

Did they hurt your feelings or something?

No, they hurt the economy, my children and grand children's chance of a prosperous future and unrestricted travel opportunities within Europe. They hurt the NI Good Friday agreement and reintroduced the prospect of nightly news reports of sectarian death and destruction. They have hurt many things, but my feelings are nothing in comparison.

Contact Approach

I think this entire thread is proof of the amount of people they ‘hurt’, and this is still within a relatively small group of people, and a very specific consequence of this supposed ‘will of the people’...

Perhaps a Petition ‘for the UK government to reconsider its relationship with EASA’ would be a slightly more humble wording, as opposed to demanding special treatment...

I very much doubt the UK would reconsider under the current Gov, sadly. I can only see this getting worse before getting better.

I completely agree with your assessment of the state of affairs. Being a casualty of it all, I just feel there is a bit of misdirected animosity in the discussion. BREXIT did not necessarily have to involve leaving EASA, Galileo and other EU agencies; Norway, Switzerland and others seem to be enjoying their Sovereignty just fine.

These ‘red lines’ seem well beyond anything the public had any direct say in from my perspective. It’s easy to vote on blanket statements printed on the side of a bus. I can only assume the fine print was posted on the underside of said vehicle...

Yeah i agree and that’s why those who keep posting you voted for it so deal with it aren’t entirely correct.

Still in agreement. But subsequently some kind of introspection needed, in some cases, before blaming the EU/EASA/whathaveyou for the failure to deliver said message on the mentioned bus. ‘Perhaps’ the author over-promised on the benefits of being a non-member. At least in the case of EASA.

So once more. Perhaps the petition should be rephrased: To the UK Parliament and its
MP’s responsible for a hard exit from EASA membership and affiliation; On behalf of those affected who were quite content being a part of this inter-governmental European Agency and the associated Flight Crew Licensing benefits...

Sovereignty politics apart, we will still continue to be operating in the same geographical aerospace...

It’s ridiculous of course that both sides don’t recognize EASA licenses issued before 1-1-‘21 under grandfather rights regardless in which EASA country it was issued at the time. Pure bureaucracy and obstruction, serving no purpose.

Exams passed or licenses issued after Brexit not being accepted by both sides, as that was after the split, is fair enough I suppose.

Exactly that. I genuinely don’t see the argument as to why licences weren’t grandfathered? What purpose did it really serve? Would have probably saved the SOLI paperwork. I also don’t understand why being part of the EU is so vital as others have rightly pointed out the likes of Norway, Switzerland etc are still members of EASA but not part of the EU. I get that the UK would have to accept the jurisdiction of the ECJ but is that really so much of a big deal? It’s clear the UK Gov haven’t got the foggiest when it comes to aviation in any case so maybe that would have been a good thing!

Well... I am European living and working in the UK. I have EASA licence for the next two years still valid within the UK, but after that I will need a British licence. That Brexit is just a dream of great again britain by those pub visitors that flushed their brains in a daily pint of beer :) and absolutely no sense for the aviation community!

this is a major issue for UK pilots who did not transfer before 31st Dec, this also means that currently Ryanair cannot accept apps for the AFA B737 type rating programme, the solution for UK licence holders is to contact somebody who will do a quick transfer course, Diamond Aviation in Sweden are doing something.

Another solution would be for Ryanair to accept UK licences for UK based roles.

How would UK licences work for flying Irish-registered aircraft?

“It has been our long-standing position that a UK airline with a significant presence in the UK, such as Ryanair UK does, should not rely heavily on using wet-leased, foreign-registered aircraft to undertake their operations. Doing so undermines the competitiveness of the UK aviation industry and the effectiveness of the regulatory regime.”
UK CAA

https://www.caa.co.uk/News/UK-Civil-...press-release/

There is nothing preventing EU airlines from basing EU-registered aircraft in the UK and operate UK-EU flights with those aircraft.

It would be extremely silly for any airline to move their fleet to G-reg, if large majority of their flights are UK-EU, as they'd lose the flexibility in not being able to operate inter-EU flights with those aircraft.

There is nothing preventing the EU empowering EASA to issue licences to former UK EASA licence holders either.

I'm sure operating EASA registered aircraft with EASA-licenced UK-based crews is financially the best option for Ryanair shareholders, in the same way employing pilots via bogus self-employment schemes or not recognising unions was until the regulators and courts caught up. There may be nothing preventing them doing this now, but who knows in the future.

Maybe Ryanair can use their considerable lobbying power to encourage the reciprocation of licence transfer.

vp89

Good for you, and thanks for your touching concern. The UK is being its usual accommodating self and allowing a generous leeway for EASA licence holders. Such a pity that the EU is not being "gentlemanly" by not providing a reciprocal leeway for UK licence holders. Certainly, grandfather rights should apply, since UK licences before Brexit were gained and awarded under EASA rules. Nothing has changed that.

You realise there's no point of transfering to an EASA authority if one has no right to live and work in a member state.

Sick

Indeed. Just all of irish and british crews. But certainly not a huge problem at the moment. However, without technically being based in the UK, but rather seconded there on a temporary base, that might still be possible, after all, the TCA makes it very much clear that wet leasing from the EU into the UK remains possible, just not the other way round.

lilpilot, do you realise UK citizens have the right to live and work in Ireland? Do you realise there are jobs outside of the EU which require an EASA licence for various reasons?

And the benefit to the EU in all this would be...?

Not sure if it's necessary a finite supply. What's stopping British citizens from pursuing training and licencing under EASA?

And the benefit to the UK of Ryanair operating EASA-registered aircraft with EASA-licenced pilots based in the UK is?

Nothing stopping them as I can see, but why should those who have already held EASA licences need to do it all again?

Good question, I wondered that myself. But in the end, the UK signed an international agreement that allows just that. Not that it is yet ratified by the EU, after all, it might still sink which would bring another whole host of problems, like the immediate and complete loss of traffic rights of the EU into the UK and vice versa.

As Denti points out, UK signed the agreement which allows this. DHL UK benefit from the same thing on the other side of the (now hard) border.

I think the same rule applies for EASA licence holders, who have never held a UK EASA licence, and wish to obtain a UK Part-FCL licence:

How can one be 'based' in the UK unless one has the right to work/reside ? In days of gold, therein was the problem first. One of my dreams was to live and work as an airline pilot in the USA. Getting the right to live & work was the first, major hurdle. Same with Canada. Gave up.

Later, lived and worked with an Italian carrier 'based in Milan' on work/res permits and licence validation. Worked just fine. Just prior, in m y former company, Italian division required full UK ATPL writtens and type ratings to fly our UK registered aircraft out of the UK, just for extensive line/training. Politicians just trying to close up potential political loop-holes, I guess.Doesn't half create problems and divisions though.

Quote....And the benefit to the UK of Ryanair operating EASA-registered aircraft with EASA-licenced pilots based in the UK is?

Nothing stopping them as I can see, but why should those who have already held EASA licences need to do it all again?

Ryanair created a UK AOC with 1 G reg aircraft on it. Then tried to wet lease hundreds of EI reg aircraft in. Which was stopped, rules state only 10% of fleet can be wet leased.

Quote...As Denti points out, UK signed the agreement which allows this. DHL UK benefit from the same thing on the other side of the (now hard) border.

Really. So you’re saying G reg aircraft can fly point to point in Europe with UK licence only pilots...Amazing.

Well, cargo is a special case to begin with, under TCA rules. But even without going there, the TCA does provide for wet lease from the UK to the EU, however, only in very limited and special cases. So it is not something that can happen on an everyday level. The other way round there is no such caveat.

For air cargo the TCA provides the express possibility to have bilateral agreements between EU member states and the UK about fifth freedom rights on a reciprocal level. No such provision is given for other air transport operations.

But of course, both areas can dry lease without any restriction from each other area, so there might be D-registered aircraft flying with UK licensed crew within the UK, and G-registered aircraft with EU licensed crew in Germany for example. I have no idea how DHL UK currently operates, but it could be interesting how it works within the confines of the TCA.

The TCA provides no further freedoms apart from 3 to 5, and 5 only for air cargo.

The UK needs to rejoin EASA, is this not obvious`?

Quote....But of course, both areas can dry lease without any restriction from each other area, so there might be D-registered aircraft flying with UK licensed crew within the UK, and G-registered aircraft with EU licensed crew in Germany for example. I have no idea how DHL UK currently operates, but it could be interesting how it works within the confines of the TCA.

If then, as a cargo operator you can dry lease in and out and operate an EASA reg aircraft on a UK licence, then it seems it matters very little what the TCA says anyway.

Still seems a precarious way to run a large business. I know for a fact the French impounded a G-Reg cargo airframe that was operating point to point in France, and this was before Brexit. Cost an exuberant fee to settle too....Be amazed if they weren’t waiting to pounce again.

So yes, it may well prove to be very interesting....

Contact Approach

Not to the politicians who take these decisions!!!

@DS. I may be mistaken but you seem to have thing about how DHK goes about it’s business - any particular reason? For me if the regulators are ok with it then so am I. If they ever change that, then I guess we’ll deal with it then.

I’m not aware of EASA reg being crewed by UK licences.

The CTA gives the right to to live and work in Ireland, not through Ireland in other countries in the EU. Any operator trying to circumvent EU law by using the CTA as a trojan horse will be dealt with, Ryanair has been under scrutiny for violating EU employment laws already, as a repeat offender authorities can't wait to add a couple big fines on their account. But what matters is pilots may also get the shortest end of the stick.
With that said it would have been prudent to grandfather in all professional qualifications that were issued during EU membership. Unfortunately this concept didn't make the final agreement, other professions are struggling too: https://www.archdaily.com/959569/uk-...llowing-brexit

I see from your posts that your ATPL exams is your main concern, I do hope they are working on these "ground certificates" and they'll get the proper acknowledgement, on every side. In the event that there's a huge runup and they need to find every single pilot pronto, you can bet on it, that common sense will return to them quickly.

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....9a8d975652.jpg
Just to highlight it still happens...

German jobs for German people by stealth. The French do it too.

Most operators across Europe do that.

Wrong, it says German speakers. There are many people who are not from Germany, but who speak German. Same goes for French. The inability of being multilingual doesn’t warrant accusations of only hiring certain nationalities.

there are many Italians who live in the Piemonte or Lombardy area that either work for German companies or commute to Austria or Switzerland. Maybe you didn’t realize, but the north of Italy is full of German manufacturing.

To indulgence further in your ignorance, besides German speaking countries as Switzerland and Austria, there are many Dutch, Luxembourg,Belgian, Polish and Scandinavians that do speak German.

Maybe odd for you, but a large portion of the European citizens speak more than English as a second tongue.

And?
If I ran a company I'd like to hire who I want to hire

As a matter of fact, German is an official language in a couple of regions in Italy, including the one I live in.

lilpilot, thank you for the reply. I was referring to the fact there may be jobs in Ireland which UK citizens are no longer eligible to apply for as their UK EASA licence (valid for life at time of issue) has been rescinded and replaced with a UK licence, not a back-door into living and working elsewhere in the EU. Additionally there are jobs around the world, outside of the EU territorially, which require EASa licences.

To clarify, my main concern is for those who have completed EASA ground examinations and flight tests before 1/1/21 (in any EASA state), and were issued a valid for life EASA licence, but who now have ended up with a UK licence and are unable to get an EASA licence without re-doing it all. This includes those who always had a UK EASA licence, and those who transferred SOLI to a UK EASA licence, often as a condition of employment.

The ability to SOLI out of the UK before 1/1/21 wasn't particularly useful for those working in the UK who would then potentially not be able to sit their next LPC unless their company had EASA licensed examiners and equipment, and would then not be able to fly until they applied for a received their UK licence (after 1/4/21 and with no timescales given).

Added to that is the fact that non-UK EASA licence holders who gained their licences before 1/1/21, doing identical tests and training, can fly in the UK until the end of 2022 using their EASA licences, and gain a UK licence with no additional training or testing. And then the icing on the cake of certain operators demanding EASA licences for UK based roles.

Life is not fair I guess, and while the politicians responsible for this won't be losing any sleep, it has successfully divided us professional aviators who have no real recourse as our regulators are just doing what they are told by the lawmakers.