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BA to Virgin
Hi All, I’m currently a junior LH P2 at BA and can honestly say I’m really not happy with it. The people I fly with are great, but I find that the company is toxic and the rosters untenable. As it stands I’m looking to jump ship and Virgin seems like the obvious choice as I like doing LH. I’ve done a fair bit of research on life at Virgin, but as a lot less people are moaning about it on here, and I don’t know any other VS pilots, it’s quite hard for me to paint a full picture. Are there any VS pilots here that could clear some things up for me? (Even better if it’s someone who’s done a BA-VS move). In particular I’ve got the following q’s: 1: How are the rosters and what dictates taken a 3rd (and 4th?) pilot? I know about the 750 limit and rotating seniority, but not much more than that. 2: How is crew interaction? Is there an obvious FD/CC split or do people socialise and act as a whole crew 3: I’ve read rumours about a B pay scale, have these materialised and would I likely be recruited into it if so? 4: How easy is it to commute and how does staff travel work? and any other insights/info you can give would be greatly appreciated! ATB |
So you went from TUI 787 to BA 320 - are you after the holly grail of Aviation?
If I was VS i'd be thinking do I want you.... |
Originally Posted by GKOC41
(Post 10636866)
So you went from TUI 787 to BA 320 - are you after the holly grail of Aviation?
If I was VS i'd be thinking do I want you.... |
Originally Posted by GKOC41
(Post 10636866)
So you went from TUI 787 to BA 320 - are you after the holly grail of Aviation?
If I was VS i'd be thinking do I want you.... i too would be interested in an answer to the OP |
Originally Posted by GKOC41
(Post 10636866)
So you went from TUI 787 to BA 320 - are you after the holly grail of Aviation?
.. Leaving opinions about management aside :oh: the OP wouldn’t be the first person at BA considering looking for a Holy Grail, that probably being defined as an airline that doesn’t roster an under established pilot work force using JSS.... A lot of people are finding it pretty grim and from what I have heard some are considering their options, especially those newish joiners yet to be shackled to BA by increasing seniority. I reckon there will be more than a few paying attention to this thread. |
Originally Posted by wiggy
(Post 10636945)
He/she said they were...” LH”...i.e. Long haul.. Leaving opinions about management aside :oh: the OP wouldn’t be the first person at BA considering looking for a Holy Grail, that probably being defined as an airline that doesn’t roster an under established pilot work force using JSS.... A lot of people are finding it pretty grim and from what I have heard some are considering their options, especially those newish joiners yet to be shackled to BA by increasing seniority. I reckon there will be more than a few paying attention to this thread. Maybe he/she was offered LH then changed to 320? Any decent recruiter will ask the same questions as TUI gave that LH option on 787 also. |
Originally Posted by Twiglet1
(Post 10637114)
Maybe he/she was offered LH then changed to 320? Any decent recruiter will ask the same questions as TUI gave that LH option on 787 also.
Originally Posted by HardLanding1
(Post 10636824)
Hi All, I’m currently a junior LH P2 at BA and can honestly say I’m really not happy with it. The people I fly with are great, but I find that the company is toxic and the rosters untenable. As it stands I’m looking to jump ship and Virgin seems like the obvious choice as I like doing LH. |
Is there the ability to switch long haul fleets at VS? |
It’s what works best for you , I was similar to yourself and made the jump to Virgin and I’m happy with my choice . By no means is Virgin AMAZING but it does have some good perks and the 750hrs is definitely the golden egg ! If you don’t mind flying basically the same routes month after month then It’s not that bad |
Okay to clear some things up, although I’ve no idea why the assumption has been made: I haven’t gone from TUI 787 to BA A320 and I don’t see why it would make any difference if I had. I’m not after any holy grail. It’s just that I’ve joined BA, and I’ll happily admit, I probably did it with rose tinted glasses, and I’ve since found out that it doesn’t work for me at all, so I want to move, nothing more, nothing less. Wiggy has pretty much hit the nail on the head, it mostly comes down to JSS, and I know for sure I’m not the only one. |
Hardlanding, I’m in the same boat as you. Currently very junior on the a320 based out of Gatwick and looking at jumping ship to Virgin. You mention that most folk are fine to fly with. Whilst I agree with this statement, I can’t help but notice that it is very noticable when flying with a skipper who is ex easyJet, Monarch, TUI etc. The atmosphere and day just tends to be a little bit more relaxed and enjoyable. Just an observation I’ve personally made... How long does it take to for a Manchester base? Ive searched everywhere but can’t find an answer to this. Also, I’ve read recently that Virgin are looking to expand operations out of Manchester significantly and take a lot of the Thomas cook slots and that Virgin see MAN as their potential second hub? Also, I’m interested to know more about this pay B scale too? What is the current take home for a new FO approximately (as it stands not inc the B scale). A couple of example rosters for different fleets would be great to see too if available. Cheers in advance. Any help or info is much appreciated.
Originally Posted by HardLanding1
(Post 10636824)
Hi All, I’m currently a junior LH P2 at BA and can honestly say I’m really not happy with it. The people I fly with are great, but I find that the company is toxic and the rosters untenable. As it stands I’m looking to jump ship and Virgin seems like the obvious choice as I like doing LH. I’ve done a fair bit of research on life at Virgin, but as a lot less people are moaning about it on here, and I don’t know any other VS pilots, it’s quite hard for me to paint a full picture. Are there any VS pilots here that could clear some things up for me? (Even better if it’s someone who’s done a BA-VS move). In particular I’ve got the following q’s: 1: How are the rosters and what dictates taken a 3rd (and 4th?) pilot? I know about the 750 limit and rotating seniority, but not much more than that. 2: How is crew interaction? Is there an obvious FD/CC split or do people socialise and act as a whole crew 3: I’ve read rumours about a B pay scale, have these materialised and would I likely be recruited into it if so? 4: How easy is it to commute and how does staff travel work? and any other insights/info you can give would be greatly appreciated! ATB |
So trying to cut through the BS that has been spouted after Hardlanding1 asked a simple question.
750 hrs is the standard contract, part time may be available further down the road Third pilot on trips with Block time greater than 9hr 30min. 4th pilot evaporated years ago. If you are airbus qualified you will go airbus fleet, likewise Boeing. Airbus Fleet currently A333/A332 and A350 coming into service now. From approx 2021 all A330s being replaced with A330 Neo. Many people commute, but very dependent on which fleet and how many trips you have in a month. I commuted from North of M62 for 12 years, easier to do when you're younger! Staff travel after 6 months and too much to cover here! Boeing Fleet, A few 744s left, not sure how long they have got, rumours of extensions. Rest of the Fleet 787. 787s have the better long haul destinations with longer lay overs. Airbus shorter trips, generally one nighters but a few longer ones. A350 will have a mix of longer and shorter trips and we are planned to be single fleet A330/350, not sure yet how that will work out. FD/CC socially still good but not as mad as it used to be......probably a good thing! Compared with what I have heard 100% better than BA, but as I have never experienced BA I can't categorically comment. If you have less than 3000hrs you may start on a lower salary than last year due to the intro of 2 new lower pay scales. Not a B scale. No job is perfect, its horses for courses and this old horse has been quite happy for 16 years. Hope that helps and good luck. |
Originally Posted by 3wings
(Post 10637347)
So trying to cut through the BS that has been spouted after Hardlanding1 asked a simple question.
750 hrs is the standard contract, part time may be available further down the road Third pilot on trips with Block time greater than 9hr 30min. 4th pilot evaporated years ago. If you are airbus qualified you will go airbus fleet, likewise Boeing. Airbus Fleet currently A333/A332 and A350 coming into service now. From approx 2021 all A330s being replaced with A330 Neo. Many people commute, but very dependent on which fleet and how many trips you have in a month. I commuted from North of M62 for 12 years, easier to do when you're younger! Staff travel after 6 months and too much to cover here! Boeing Fleet, A few 744s left, not sure how long they have got, rumours of extensions. Rest of the Fleet 787. 787s have the better long haul destinations with longer lay overs. Airbus shorter trips, generally one nighters but a few longer ones. A350 will have a mix of longer and shorter trips and we are planned to be single fleet A330/350, not sure yet how that will work out. FD/CC socially still good but not as mad as it used to be......probably a good thing! Compared with what I have heard 100% better than BA, but as I have never experienced BA I can't categorically comment. If you have less than 3000hrs you may start on a lower salary than last year due to the intro of 2 new lower pay scales. Not a B scale. No job is perfect, its horses for courses and this old horse has been quite happy for 16 years. Hope that helps and good luck. |
Same boat as the OP and looking to move ASAP. BA have lost me with the actions they took against us during the strike. Now I treat it as a purely transactional relationship - come in fly the ridiculous 6 trips a month and go home. Nothing else. It’s a toxic atmosphere and it won’t change anytime soon. A real shame. |
Originally Posted by 3wings
(Post 10637347)
So trying to cut through the BS that has been spouted after Hardlanding1 asked a simple question.
750 hrs is the standard contract, part time may be available further down the road Third pilot on trips with Block time greater than 9hr 30min. 4th pilot evaporated years ago. If you are airbus qualified you will go airbus fleet, likewise Boeing. Airbus Fleet currently A333/A332 and A350 coming into service now. From approx 2021 all A330s being replaced with A330 Neo. Many people commute, but very dependent on which fleet and how many trips you have in a month. I commuted from North of M62 for 12 years, easier to do when you're younger! Staff travel after 6 months and too much to cover here! Boeing Fleet, A few 744s left, not sure how long they have got, rumours of extensions. Rest of the Fleet 787. 787s have the better long haul destinations with longer lay overs. Airbus shorter trips, generally one nighters but a few longer ones. A350 will have a mix of longer and shorter trips and we are planned to be single fleet A330/350, not sure yet how that will work out. FD/CC socially still good but not as mad as it used to be......probably a good thing! Compared with what I have heard 100% better than BA, but as I have never experienced BA I can't categorically comment. If you have less than 3000hrs you may start on a lower salary than last year due to the intro of 2 new lower pay scales. Not a B scale. No job is perfect, its horses for courses and this old horse has been quite happy for 16 years. Hope that helps and good luck. |
Quite a few unhappy pilots at BA, many looking for a way out. That would be unheard of 20 years ago.
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LHS 320, exhausted and fed up. I consider leaving but keep on doing nothing. As the time passes it gets harder to leave. If you are going to jump then do it now. Don’t end up stuck through fear of leaving for something else. Hopefully the “relationship reset” will help.........:rolleyes: JSS is a disaster, easily working 15% more with exhausting trip constructions of 6 day blocks of early starts. All I ask for is a max 5 day block and in the last two months all my blocks are 6 days. Jet2 DEC A321........ |
Originally Posted by bex88
(Post 10637833)
LHS 320, exhausted and fed up. I consider leaving but keep on doing nothing. As the time passes it gets harder to leave. If you are going to jump then do it now. Don’t end up stuck through fear of leaving for something else. Hopefully the “relationship reset” will help.........:rolleyes: JSS is a disaster, easily working 15% more with exhausting trip constructions of 6 day blocks of early starts. All I ask for is a max 5 day block and in the last two months all my blocks are 6 days. Jet2 DEC A321........ I've got a couple of mates waiting to start at VS who were caught up in the demise of TCX and I have to say it's becoming very very tempting before I get stuck with the golden handcuffs at Big Airways. Bex - I was a very happy bunny at J2! Give it serious thought and if you have any questions feel free to PM me. |
Originally Posted by HardLanding1
(Post 10637626)
Thanks that's exactly the answer I was looking for, cheers for your help.
I have relatives in both BA LH and VS.] Definitely less hours flown in VS and friendly operation, pay OK. Time to Command far less in VS, vs BA LH Only downside I have heard from them, is acute roster instability in VS vs rock steady rosters in BA which only change with requests or agreement. A330/A340 fleet every rostered trip in Nov changed, usually at last minute to a JFK n/s or Lagos. 5 Atlantic crossings in 24 days. Probably caused by 787 engine troubles and extended unplanned A340 use until Summer 2020. (Apparently few Airbus pilots are A340 rated, so get stuck with JFK and Lagos) Presumably rosters will improve with A350 introduction. |
Originally Posted by bex88
(Post 10637833)
LHS 320, exhausted and fed up. I consider leaving but keep on doing nothing. As the time passes it gets harder to leave. If you are going to jump then do it now. Don’t end up stuck through fear of leaving for something else. Hopefully the “relationship reset” will help.........:rolleyes: JSS is a disaster, easily working 15% more with exhausting trip constructions of 6 day blocks of early starts. All I ask for is a max 5 day block and in the last two months all my blocks are 6 days. Jet2 DEC A321........ Just under 600 hours LHS this year at one of the rapidly growing bases, thanks to decent leave bids. Back home every night and everyone is a pleasure to work with. It’s not perfect but striving to improve things for the pilot workforce. |
How many days off at home each month for a long haul junior FO (say first 5 years) at VS versus BA?
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This is all if you can get a response from zenon!
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Can somebody please explain the situation with the Manchester base and future expansion out of Manchester? Also what’s the take home pay for year 1 on current pay scale? Cheers folks. |
Originally Posted by bex88
(Post 10637833)
LHS 320, exhausted and fed up. I consider leaving but keep on doing nothing. As the time passes it gets harder to leave. If you are going to jump then do it now. Don’t end up stuck through fear of leaving for something else. Hopefully the “relationship reset” will help.........:rolleyes: JSS is a disaster, easily working 15% more with exhausting trip constructions of 6 day blocks of early starts. All I ask for is a max 5 day block and in the last two months all my blocks are 6 days. Jet2 DEC A321........ |
Originally Posted by funkyt111
(Post 10638933)
Can somebody please explain the situation with the Manchester base and future expansion out of Manchester? Also what’s the take home pay for year 1 on current pay scale? Cheers folks. |
Originally Posted by DCT_ELSIR
(Post 10639316)
I'm also very interested in the answers to both of these questions. Thanks for any info.
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Stable checked..........Ibid will let you see all the rosters. Rolling total for the year is 820hr, up from around 700. Just look for the roster full of 6 day blocks. All early with one report after 6am so it’s legal. The volume of work is no more than anyone else it is just how the work is awarded. You will hear people complain about a lack of weekends off, I actually find I get more weekends off under JSS than bid line. I don’t even ask for them. The variety of flying is better too. Why it can’t follow a simple max five days on and awards 6 days on every block for the last two months I cannot explain. ”biddable roster” is a recruitment point BA make. When you tell the system that it can award all work and it still pushes you into fall back you do not have a biddable roster. |
Is there any reason BA short haul couldn’t be rostered more like the locos? Ie max. 5 days on, followed by 3 or 4 days off? Other than, of course, the company wanting to get more work out of you.., |
Loco style fixed rostering kind of works because there is no seniority, and everyone gets the same, more or less, and flights are crammed into the 5 on, in an optimised but fairly random fashion. Not sure how seniority would feed in - 5/5 for the top, and 5/2 for the bottom?!
I'm surprised BA hasn't completely split SH away from the seniority list, even away from BA all together, because it would be a hell of a lot easier to run it if it were like easy or Ryanair. |
For what it’s worth, as I didn’t understand it coming from a different airline where our allowances and pay was all paid together...VS yr 1 £4250 a month net but you wont use your net pay towards allowances like my previous airlines. Usually around $800 a month in allowances (assuming 3 trips a month on 787. Tax free.) which are loaded onto your virgin card for each trip as you depart. I usually, unintentionally, save about a quarter of that. No idea how BA works. |
Originally Posted by pudoc
(Post 10639929)
For what it’s worth, as I didn’t understand it coming from a different airline where our allowances and pay was all paid together...VS yr 1 £4250 a month net but you wont use your net pay towards allowances like my previous airlines. Usually around $800 a month in allowances (assuming 3 trips a month on 787. Tax free.) which are loaded onto your virgin card for each trip as you depart. I usually, unintentionally, save about a quarter of that. No idea how BA works. What is is your average layover down route? Good social? |
Originally Posted by Riskybis
(Post 10639544)
with the full 6% (15% return from company) on my year one salary i was taking home around £4200 , this doesn’t change that much as it is fixed flight pay , I don’t know anything about the Manchester plans that’s great thanks. But there is a Manchester base right? Do you know how long it takes to get a MAN base? Cheers |
Originally Posted by funkyt111
(Post 10640196)
that’s great thanks. But there is a Manchester base right? Do you know how long it takes to get a MAN base? Cheers to be honest I’m not sure really how seniority works , I understand that you can be in either A,B or C group which makes it fair for bids etc... if you are brand new . Although VS bid system is pretty useless Layover length is very much fleet dependent , on the airbus it’s usually bucket and spade routes (Caribbean , Lagos etc) and usually min rest . 787 does more of the business routes like LA, SFO , PVG and they are 2 nighters and the occasional 3 nighter . Lots of thing are changing with the 350 and further Trent 1000 engine problems . |
Originally Posted by VinRouge
(Post 10640079)
Is it true that VS operate rotating seniority? How does that work? What is is your average layover down route? Good social? Rotating seniority...when you join you'll be put into bid group A B or C. Rotates every month. Month 1 the bid priority will be ABC, month 2 BCA, month 3 CAB. Your position in the group is based on date of joining. A new guy will be bottom of their bid group, but for his/her bid they will have the 'acting seniority' as if they were in the top 1/3rd of pilots every 3 months and will only be at the bottom of all pilots once every 3 months too. The result is that guys with less than 6 months service can have Xmas off if their group was top for December bidding, but very senior guys may end up working Xmas if their group is bottom. A senior pilot who is top of the middle bid group may have had a chance of getting their bid whereas a new pilot at the bottom of the same group probably won't, so overall seniority still has a role. Applies for roster bids and leave (leave slightly different in how the groups rotate), normal seniority rules for commands etc. It's a fair system, everyone gets some form of life and I've never heard anyone complain about it. |
Remember with BA you are likely to bear the full force of JSS juniority several times over your career: joining, going long haul, even changing LH fleets, gaining a command etc. It is common for pilots to choose to remain in the right hand seat to maximise lifestyle. The rotating seniority system at Virgin considerably reduces the seniority gradient. It is wrong to suggest that “your turn will come” at BA, its all about (the luck of) timing, many will not become senior LH captains even after 30 years on the BA seniority list, in fact many will never ever be senior LH skippers. |
Absolutely right Pickled. I joined BA at 35, the exact point that was my personal cutoff. Consequently to that I doubt I will ever break the top 1000 of the MSL, there’s just too many people senior to me and younger than me. It’s arguable to say that I might possibly achieve ten years of a Long Haul command (if I was lucky) but given that most of that time I would be amongst the most junior trash I’m leaning towards spending the entirety of my career in the RHS and at least benefitting from some seniority that way. If you want the full scope of a fulfilling career and enjoying seniority for a decent length of time in both seats in SH and LH then BA is a young man’s game, arguably over the age of about 28/29 it could already be too late. |
My biggest concern for Virgin over BA is probably the routes, the network doesn’t seem to be that big anymore. Can any airbus guys comment on this? With a long career still ahead of me I’m slightly worried I would get bored of doing the same 15 or so LH routes over and over again.
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Now here is a radical idea BA. Seniority based on date of joining. Seniority as a captain based on when you passed your command course. Simples......:oh: |
Originally Posted by bex88
(Post 10640711)
Now here is a radical idea BA. Seniority based on date of joining. Seniority as a captain based on when you passed your command course. Simples......:oh: |
It would encourage people to take commands as they become available. It would solve the short haul P1 issue and potentially free up a more natural progression. That or leave it as it is and make long haul commands all Not suitable for first command. |
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