I have the feeling you’re not nightstopping with anybody next week

Personally I love the balance of 2-3 nights away every week versus the rest of the week at home with the wife and kids.

I think I’d go mad if I was stuck at home every night. It’s always nice to have a change of scenery even if it’s just for 24-48 hrs, especially when it’s a miserable, cold, dark and wet winter in the U.K.
Plus being away makes me miss the family and look forward to seeing them again.

that seems an immature response and the feeling is probably mutual. If a colleague says he/she doesn't want to meet up, I totally understand that. While I liked meeting up with the crew on layovers, I knew it would make my rest and jetlag much worse, and usually the guys who always hit the town were useless zombies on the way home. Moreover, I hated the schlep of on blocks, wait ages for everyone to be ready, terminal or crew bus, shepherd crew towards a hotel shuttle that may or not be there, check in, find a room/bed that thousands of people have slept in, etc etc all times two, and all the while, so tired I want to puke. I ended up hating all that.

I think it’s quite a mature response to someone who spends so much effort telling us how little he likes his job.

I get your point about not always wanting to meet up and sometimes I do and sometimes I don’t depending on how my/our rest is going.

If you get to the hating it all stage then move on if that’s possible and if not don’t take it out on your colleagues.

All of which is slightly hijacking the thread for which I apologise.

Oh yes, I am!

deltahotel is spot on about meeting up or not when away. But I would not enjoy working together with anyone who hates the job so that their attitude is
However, this is going off topic. Apologies. So take up again before where we interrupted.

This thread is hilarious!

Just to confirm, different people like different things, appreciate the perks of different jobs to others, and have different priorities.... surely not!

Ok guys, this my dad is bigger than your dad, I have a bigger willy etc contest is pointless and ridiculous.

Yes I work for Jet2, very happy with the way we have been treated during these awful times. I am a happy bunny, mainly as I like the lifestyle and the ease of my job here. TUI has a lot of attractions for some people for different reasons, BA / Virgin the same.

What is becoming apparent in these unusual times are who the decent employers are. Who looks after their employees and which airlines are looking to take advantage of this situation to batter T @ Cs.

Lets all hope at the other side of this we all have a job that we are happy with and life can get back to some kind of normality.

Best job will be the one that exists in six months !

Amen to that! Most sensible post on this thread...

Let's hope they all exist still in 6 months, 12 months, 24 months.......

I’d like to first say I don’t work at any of the 3 airlines mentioned and I hope nobody take offence to me adding to this thread. I did work for Thomson for 3 years but was made redundant in the 2010 event. Last in, last out which I fully agree with. I totally enjoyed working there and would have never left. Great company back then, I don’t know about now but I still have friends there who are very happy. I also have friends working at Jet2 who are also happy. Ryanair, I don’t know anyone there.

With reference to the title of the thread, Jet2, Tui Or Ryanair, I would not work for Ryanair unless I had to, and chances are I wouldn’t bother unless it was financially beneficial to me and was at a base I could survive at. I think I would just not bother and go back to truck driving or working in the Far East on an Airbus which is what I’m current on at present.

So regarding Tui or Jet2

For me it would be all about lifestyle, income, job satisfaction, job security and basing.

I remember many years ago whilst working on the ramp before I qualified, I managed to organise a jumpseat observation flight with a Britannia base Captain. As they had an amazing colour scheme that gave the impression of a wonderful company to work for, I asked him what he thought of the new colour scheme that they were in the process of changing to, the light blue Thomson.co.uk colour scheme. His reply was he did not give a **** as long as his job, terms and conditions and lifestyle did not change. Initially I was shocked but many years later I now fully understand what he meant.

If I did work for BA, the prestige of saying I worked for BA means nothing to me. Who the hell wants to live anywhere near London and work out of LHR. If you’re from down that neck of the woods, then fair enough, but why would anyone want to move down there from their home area. For me only if it was the last option. Would I be ashamed to say I work for either Tui or Jet2, no I wouldn’t. I’d work for either but as we know, it depends on if you’re a FO or Captain who you would aim for. I would go from present Captain to FO at TUI if I had to, but if an opportunity of DEC at Jet2 was there, I would take that as a priority.

As for long haul. If you’re young and want to see the world, then happy for you, but when you get to the wrong side of 50, spending hours on end in a tin can to spend around 20 hours free time down route for a few beers and a steak is not glamorous at all. I’d rather be at home with family or in a pub with real friends. That’s my own personal preference. You want long haul ? crack on with it and very happy for you if you can get what you desire. Loads aimed for Virgin because they wanted long haul.

If you have a job that pays well, nice routes, you’re happy, job security and at a preferred base, then we have to be very grateful. Having to take a job in another part of the world can be stressful and demanding on a family, I know.

Regarding the above post reference we’re better than you ? I do actually know guys who have left each Tui for Jet2 and vice versa. It’s not all one way and good luck to them for their reasons.

Pay, happiness, lifestyle, base. Job security.

My thoughts are with all that have still not found a job since Monarch, TCX and Flybe’s demise, especially those with a totally waste of time rating and maybe outstanding loans ie MPLs.

Good luck to all crews in all UK companies during the coming months/year.

Very accurate! One thing though, if you do LH you can live wherever you want. Which is a great advantage I believe. I live 3 hours away from base, would never be able to do that on short haul. LH can be a great lifestyle, on part time even better.

“As for long haul. If you’re young and want to see the world, then happy for you, but when you get to the wrong side of 50, spending hours on end in a tin can to spend around 20 hours free time down route for a few beers and a steak is not glamorous at all.”

BP, speak for yourself! I’m the wrong side of 60 and the chance to get away (and my job) suddenly disappeared last September. Life is not so much of a beach any more.

Really sorry to hear that. I would have also done long haul had there been no other option. If an option, I’d rather not.

BP. I have no complaints and fortunate to have been an oldie when the edifice collapsed. Having got away with defying gravity for a brilliant 46 years, I was probably on borrowed time!

A thing to remember in this job is that gravity always wins! Our job is to ensure a 'score draw'.

(Off topic a bit again, with current situation the nightstopping is not quite so enjoyable right now. But I suppose it beats not nightstopping. Read that however you wish.)

Now confirmed TUI to fire 8000 in their organisation. Any preliminary idea how this will affect their pilots? I know TUI already got rid of several pilots who had started with them in march/april.

8000 is 12% of the Summer head count, more like 15% of the current Winter one. There is at the minute no plans to reduce pilot headcount however I personally am expecting it as we took on 100+ purely for this Summer which won’t be needed.

No body knows at the minute though as the airlines react to the needs of the holiday side of the business and they haven’t decided about future schedules yet. We may get away with no redundancies if Winter sun goes crazy... who knows

This by the way is just my opinion, I don’t have any insider knowledge.

As the dust is now settling after the first stages of the impact to the wider aviation community, the three airlines are, as it stands still in business. All three are now flying again in a fashion.

I cannot speak for Ryanair or Jet2, although I have friends at both I’ve never worked for either.

TUI I know first hand, have worked with the trade union, held a ballot on taking a pay and work cut for a period of time. The deal was agreed by Management and by BALPA then put to the vote. The vote had a good turn out and a high vote to accept the deal that had been thrashed out.

Its not a perfect place to be in any industry right now, not least the Aviation sector, but to my own mind the process shown by TUI although there are people within the mix who have genuine reason not to be fully happy with all of it, then generally speaking, TUI has been adult it’s been reasonably well communicated, and the problem of how to go forward has shown a fair amount of “shared ownership”

On a personal level I am happy to have played a part in keeping everyone who wants to be in a job in one. At least for now. Plenty more water and plenty more bridges to flow under.

Many years ago a very fine mentor of mine taught me never judge a person or an organisation when everything is scooting along nicely. It’s dead easy to look good as a person as a dept, as a manager, as a management team, as a board of directors and as an organisation when everything’s going well.

Better to make an analysis when it’s backs to the wall time. That’s when the hidden character shows. Good, bad, indifferent or indeed downright evil.

My opinion, TUI though not perfect in many ways have, upto now given a fairly good account of themselves and I’m proud to be part of that. And on a financial front although, as expected watching the pennies due restricted money flowing into the business until, best guess until next summer seemingly have a reasonably sensible financial plan going forward.

We can blow smoke up TUIs rear end all we like, the fact is 25% of their capacity is/was 3rd party which can be cut at a moments notice. If this wasn’t the case, don’t be fooled into thinking TUI would not have made redundancies.

I’m ex-TUI and look back fondly at my times there, but let’s not fool ourselves that they’ve avoided redundancies to be nice. Let’s not forget Project Transformation just a few years ago. It’s just happened to work out well there for both parties.

Airline management are the same everywhere, greedy and in it for themselves.

It's time we get over the idea that some companies are 'nicer' than others. The single most valuable asset to any company is not as we would like to believe its people, but is in fact the company itself. When things go pear-shaped on a global scale like they are now any company will do whatever it needs to do to survive. Being nice isn't going to pay the bills.

Another idea we need to get over is that airline management are somehow worse than management in any other line of business. They're not. But they are there to serve the interests of the business, which is not necessarily the same as looking after the interests of the people working for the business.

Ps: I do not work in management (aviation or otherwise) and have no intension or desire to do so.

Even without the third party flights going ahead, we’re still going to be overcrewed at TUI for quite some time.

Having suffered no pilot redundancies at TUI has little to do with management being nice or not being nice.
It is down to a strong representation by its pilot Union and it’s current company council.
I’m sure that when negotiations started, our management would have almost certainly had Pilot redundancies up their sleeves, along with a whole host of other losses of T&C’s.

Thankfully the relationship between Balpa and our Pilot management is the best it's been in a while, therefore the Union was able to agree a package of measures which looked at a more longer term picture for the company, including a ‘12 month paid at 80% of basic’ voluntary severance scheme for 47 of the most senior pilots on the highest (20+) year pay scales, which along with other measures has resulted in zero redundancies.

The negotiations have focused the attention of management to the longer term picture of in-house re-growth, without the need to rely on expensive third party operations.

An accurate account as id see the recent developments/plans for the future at TUI

Just for clarity, as there seems to be some misunderstanding certainly with posters that followed my own just above - Id personally not made any reference to "niceness" - guilty however of feeling pleased Id been allowed the opportunity to play a small part in the decision made regarding peers careers. By virtue of the set up that is well described in "twogoodstarts" post above.

For sure all businesses are being forced to make some hard decisions presently, we all get that they will protect the business at all costs, which is absolutely right and just. However its equally clear that each business can accomplish this in different ways. that's a function of their current financial situation/future plan/resilience and a very large slice of company and departmental culture whether it has any inclusive or team ethos to making those big decisions.

Recruitment will return one day and hopefully when we do eventually return to some semblance of a notion of normality, then the cream of the crop use information freely available here and now about how companies react under pressure in relation to employees to decide where they prioritise their target airline of choice - different strokes for different folks and all that...

So theres a reasonably balanced warts and all account so far at TUI as it stands twixt the first phases of COVID and prior the winter increase in the virus.

Second hand info so can’t confirm its veracity, but it seems that Jet2 management have threatened the pilots there with further redundancies if they don’t immediately sign up to huge, non time limited pay cuts.

£70k for a 737/757/A321 captain: the new normal. Terms and conditions will never recover from this.

Just to add a bit more perspective to the above. Jet2 communicated a need for redundancies and a pay cut from August - December some time ago now. This has been stalled and not yet agreed by BALPA, much to the displeasure of many who feel that whilst the redundancies are awful, it is an industry problem and not a snipe for the sake of it by Jet2 management. The company has since communicated that as the proposed period of pay reduction has now begun without any agreement, further delay could damage the effect of this cost saving measure and could have repercussions.

Whilst I can absolutely not speak for everyone, I know a fair proportion of my local colleagues share the same view as me, in that the company deserve a little bit of faith in these challenging times and that BALPA are actually jeopardising more jobs by stalling and asking for cast iron guarantees which I am not sure are reasonable given the current global situation.

As stated above, Jet2 have taken the decision to cut Pilot pay to 70% until the end of the year. At the moment they are massively over crewed and will be even more so in the winter. The company have worked out that this, coupled with the 102 redundancies, is what they need to do in order to survive with a reasonable cash balance until next summer. In the big scheme of things, keeping crews on 70% pay whilst most are at home I think is pretty generous. It’s unfortunate for the 102, but I understand most joined this winter in anticipation of a bumper summer season. No doubt they will be welcomed back when things pick up. Jet2 Ts and Cs have improved immeasurably over the last few years and I have no doubt that pay will return to previous levels when the finances allow. Let the Company manage the situation. Unfortunately BALPA demanding a fixed date when pay will return to normal is not very helpful. There are too many variables including potential further lockdowns or quarantine arrangements. BALPA demanding things in the current climate may well result in further job losses; oh the irony!

I haven’t had any such “Threat”. I have read a communication distributed by BALPA that indicates that delays to the current deal might result in increased costs and therefore further job losses. Whilst the cuts are disappointing, and the redundancies are very sad for those being let go, I fail to see how any airline could offer to give a date when pay will go back to previous levels.

Oceanic815

Just for balance and in no way a poke at you. But I think you would be less sanguine if you were currently in line to be canned, especially since most of the 102 are looking at their 2nd redundancy within a year. More to the point,BALPA is there working in your best interests and will be only too aware of the risks involved in asking for too much. Look at how a sensible industrial negotiation has mitigated the threat (so far) at TUI and how poorly unrepresented pilots have fared at Emirates. I'm not saying that J2 management are saints or monsters, but you never needed good representation more than you need it now.

Macdo
No offence taken and I accept everyone will have their own view on BALPA. I really do feel for the 102, especially those facing a double redundancy. But as I understand it nearly half the pilots in the company are surplus to requirements this summer, and that was before the Spanish situation. Most of the 102 have not completed line training so unfortunately they were the easiest option. With regard to BALPA knowing the risks of overplaying their hand, the correspondence from them that I have seen (as a non member) seems very aggressive. Jet2 management have never been a fan of any union and BALPA demanding things in the current climate is really not going to help that. If we were back to a full flying schedule then that would be different. For another view, imagine how I would feel if I was made redundant, as a result of increased company costs due to the actions of a union I’m not even a member of!

The company management are the only ones who know the full implication of various actions on the balance sheet. My personal view is to let them get on with it without added distractions, and hopefully we can welcome back some of the 102 next year.

Whilst I have the utmost sympathy with Jet2 management having to make savings for the overall good of the business, I do find it frustrating that it appears that they have not entertained any sort of mitigation. Sensible suggestions from BALPA including sabbaticals, unpaid leave, part time, sharing the burden by a further pay cuts (not just of the 102 but of the entire workforce) appear to have been totally ignored. Almost a “we know better attitude”. I’m aware that it could be said the same of BALPA, insisting they know better too, however BALPA surely will have more expertise by their very nature. Management certainly don’t need to take the advice or assistance offered but to throw it aside without explanation is neither helpful nor professional. These are unprecedented times and I would have thought the assistance of a professional organisation like BALPA would have been of huge benefit.

I agree with many above that to ‘poke the bear‘ at this stage is risky so I would also leave well alone however once this is all over I really do hope that the BALPA team and the management can reflect on how things could have been done much much better for the benefit of everyone....

The 102 pilots, among many others are now being thrown out to a saturated market and I am truly saddened that nothing could have been done to save even a few of them. IMHO the only hope is that when things do improve Jet2 will recruit heavily once again and they’ll be asking those they let go back in first...

For a bit of balance to the company cheerleading that has been posted above and is prevalent in all of the company whatsapp groups let me share some cold reality to the Jet2 'deal'....

1. Its not a deal, a deal requires negotiation, of which there was none on the companies part as they refused to engage
2. People found out through a company email to a Balpa rep, a union of which most are not a member, why some of colleagues got paid less last month than others, a fact the company promised wouldn't be the case
3. The 'deal' has a higher pay cut with no end in sight than any of the actual deals agreed at TUI, RYR and BA, not to mention the loss of all bonuses for the previous year in which we made a healthy profit.
4. The 'deal' has a way higher percentage of redundancies of the pilot workforce than BA, TUI and RYR

The pilot bodies response: Why are BALPA trying to negotiate improvements on this awesome deal?!

​Caveat to include Balpa don't help themselves with some of the idiotic Q & A they published recently.
​​​​​

Whitemonk has nailed it. The naivety among many of the pilots at Jet2 has amazed me.

Naivety, combined with ambivalence and a sprinkling of fear of rocking the boat.

There are many who aren't very happy with where things are going. I for one am disappointed that the company has basically put their fingers in their ears during their meetings with Balpa and called it "consultation". Regardless of the company finances, it's just plain wrong.

But, what can the pilot workforce do? Go on strike? We have mortgages to pay, families to feed. With the economy and job market as it is, what alternative do we have than to put up and shut up for the time being?

So no more #Jet2cares banners on social media? :E

Flying Wild

As always and as you state, somewhere near the middle lies the truth.

Banana Joe

🤣 I roll my eyes every time I see one!

Oh, they care alright. About the bottom line...

I guess you get what you pay for. If Jet2 was as unionised as say TUI, things might have been different. But for the sake of £50 a month you’ll never know.

or unionised like Thomas Cook was, and we all know how that went.

I’m not an expert in corporate finance, but I’m pretty sure that the rampant uncontrolled debt and catastrophic mismanagement at Thomas Cook was slightly more of a factor in its insolvency than the pilots being unionised.