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-   -   Cadet opportunity on behalf of a friend.. (https://www.pprune.org/terms-endearment/604732-cadet-opportunity-behalf-friend.html)

ChrisE 28th Jan 2018 01:08

Cadet opportunity on behalf of a friend..
 
Evening chaps,

I understand this question may seem like it lacks intelligence or research, but I'm trying to help a friend who's graduated CTC and been shafted in the hold pool and been left without employment. Are there any opportunities out there bar the usual ones on Flight Deck Friend you'd be able to recommend? I realise positions are mostly filled in the UK now with the demise of Monarch, but if there are any guys on this forum with fingers in pies or connections in the right places with a good suggestion, please could you post your ideas below!

Also another question for guys still seeking their first F/O jobs (or recently obtained), what was your average wait for a position?

Thanks!

schweizer2 28th Jan 2018 07:29

Not quite sure how your friend would have been 'shafted', after all, I am sure somewhere in the contract it would say that CTC is not obliged to find him a job.

First job maybe a year, first jet job, 5 years to get to.

clamchowder 28th Jan 2018 08:20

Try Ryanair. There is an Irish JOC/ MCC Course that apparently has links with Ryanair, know a few guys who trained at flying clubs who got in quite quick after doing it.
Took me nearly 3 years to get a job. Made an application and within 2 weeks was told I'd passed and a week after that doing the type rating!
Keep licenses and medical current at all costs. Reading Flight mags and an hour flying VFR a month helped me keep my head in the game.
Good luck

MaverickPrime 28th Jan 2018 11:02

The poor sky gods at CTC aren’t getting jobs handed to them anymore? Welcome to the real world!

bex88 28th Jan 2018 13:37

Graduated 2008. Got a few knock backs, kept my licence current and gained a few contacts which I kept in contact with. Usual story no jobs, missed the only one going at a LOCO, got a hold pool place on a TP which came to nothing. Kept in touch with my contacts without being intrusive and after a ďwith the people who are available we are not looking to recruit low hour pilots this year but keep in touchĒ a phone call a few weeks later asking me to come to a sim test in two days time. I was given the opportunity and thankfully I was able to prove myself and was offered the job the next morning. All in all it was about two years. Flight school careers/placing had nothing to do with it. It amazes me still but it was networking and being ready for when they suddenly needed some pilots like yesterday. One thing is certain though, you have to go and get it because nobody is going to search you out. Good luck and keep yourself ready to work.

RexBanner 28th Jan 2018 14:57

Lucky escape if you ask me! On a serious note though I echo the comments above. Nobody is owed a job, get those feelers out and put in the spade work (networking). Thatís what most people have had to do in the past.

B73G 28th Jan 2018 15:06

CTC owes you nothing. Welcome to the real world. Your friend is no more entitled to a job a anyone else, just because they went to CTC.

People wait moments, people wait years. There's no such thing as luck, as a friend once said; "Luck is when preparation meets opportunity".

I do, empathise slightly, having friends in the same boat, but they're all working their socks off and keeping their heads down, applying to literally everyone they can, or moving into flight instruction. Maybe your friend should consider this?

Lexsis 28th Jan 2018 16:51


Originally Posted by Veltro (Post 10034156)
I heard a rumour that CTC sent 10 of their best students for an assessment to Wizz Air and they have all been sent back home.

Hahahaha, this made my day, no offence, I genuinely had a laugh when I read this. The pre-requirements aren't that high to be honest. So I don't necessarily want to call anyone the best of the best that CTC has to offer haha!

FlipFlapFlop 28th Jan 2018 17:14

Pick and choose who you listen to carefully. There are those that spit venom at the mention of CTC. They are not a popular outfit in the eyes of many having paid a significant part in the erosion of pilots terms and conditions.
The lucky few have fallen out of CTC (or other) into their first job in a shiny jet. Some had to wait a long time and frankly depends on market forces at the time.
I did get a job straight away (not from CTC) but they went bust within two years. That left me as a low hours pilot to fight with many for very few positions and had to make do with some real crap jobs in the meantime. Eventually had to quit the UK and spent years with Qatar. Not great. Now 10 years after qualifying I have a LHS job with a loco (although if a pool place with BA comes off I may decide to shift back to the right).
I think my main message is it is a tough world out there and the positive advice from others is spot on. Stay prepared, go for everything (and I mean everything) and develop a network of people who may one day help. Nothing will land on the plate if the plate is not there.
I understand it is difficult and worrying especially for those that have bank rolled a CTC course. But as others have said, CTC owe your friend nothing. They just don't say this when the starry eyed youngster signs on the dotted line.

AIMINGHIGH123 28th Jan 2018 18:50

What others have said. Unless on a tagged scheme CTC owe your friend nothing.
I went modular and waited 4 years before my first job. Sent 100s of CVs, even kept a spreadsheet on dates applied people I spoke to, doors knocked on careers events etc etc. I even knocked on doors when I went on holidays.
Networking I have met a few guys/gals got jobs straight out of school both modular and CTC. Equally met a similar amount who have waited longer than me both CTC, modular, etc and I know of 2 guys from CTC who never made it. Gave up on searching and still had to pay off the 100k loan.
I went into this game accepting it might not happen and will write off my 40k training cost but will try my damn hardest. It paid off eventually.
People now sinking 100k+ with no plan is just crazy.

ChrisE 28th Jan 2018 22:49

Hi guys, thanks for all the responses - All of you seem to be heading in the same direction so I'll offer that as advice or link him to this post.

A few of you have asked how CTC have shafted him - basically he lost his medical in the early stages of ground-school because of an illness, recovered and subsequently missed the mark on a couple of exams, following on from that he had a serious illness in his family during the IR phase for which he requested time off as he wasn't in the right frame of mind to be flying (pretty good decision making in my eyes). However, whoever wrote his report at CTC said he lacked application, was lazy and not dedicated - which, quite obviously, has deterred any airline he's tried approaching to this point.

Of course I realise that hard work and perseverance are key to securing any desirable role, but he's only getting sniffs at pay to fly schemes at the moment which he's obviously steering well clear of. In terms of Ryanair, he applied, was told they were offering him an assessment day and then a few days later he got a rejection email! They now won't let him re-apply and haven't given feedback or a time when his application ban will be removed. Interesting what Clamchowder says about the Ryanair MCC/JOC, I'll pass this info on

Once again thanks a lot for your replies!

Deskjocky 29th Jan 2018 05:44

Whilst Im not a great fan of these cadet schemes, as these companies have been instrumental in driving the terms and conditions down in the industry for years, I do have sympathy with youngsters trying to break into the industry.

My advice is to look overseas, Africa is one with Botswana and Namibia being options and if he has any South African heritage and can get residence then He stands a fair shot of landing something with the charter operators. The locoís in SA are hoovering up literally every available pilot so slots at the bottom of the rung are there

VinRouge 29th Jan 2018 07:13

Africa has some very interesting flying to boot, with some pretty big expansions in some areas.

Pilot2/b 29th Jan 2018 07:55

Is this post actually a joke?
I thought Iíd heard it all until reading this. Trying to get a job for my friend from CTC. Someone needs a little more life experience if you ask me.
Maturity is extremely important in this business!

Skipname 29th Jan 2018 08:48


Originally Posted by B73G (Post 10034175)
There's no such thing as luck, as a friend once said; "Luck is when preparation meets opportunity".

I disagree with the notion that there is no luck and here is an example. When I was out of the flight school and looking for that first job I applied to all the jobs I could find, including Ryanair.

Ryanair invited all the guys from my class to the interview stage except me. I don't know why Ryanair didn't invite me, I passed all the ATPL exams with a high average and first pass on all the skill tests. I put that down to being unlucky. Last summer, 5 years later Ryanair did send me an email to ask me if I am still interested hahahah

Also a very good airline sent me an invite to an interview but their email went to my span folder and I saw it only after a week later when they sent me another email to tell me that all the dates were fully booked and that they will contact me some other time but they never did.

Cirrussy 29th Jan 2018 09:24

CTC and Jerez have pumped out some of the biggest guff I've ever had to fly with! Give me someone with a set of brains, a go-get attitude any day. To me, that means modular... Can't understand for the life of me why the recruiters continue to prefer an integrated student.

Pilot2/b 29th Jan 2018 10:21


Originally Posted by Cirrussy (Post 10034861)
CTC and Jerez have pumped out some of the biggest guff I've ever had to fly with! Give me someone with a set of brains, a go-get attitude any day. To me, that means modular... Can't understand for the life of me why the recruiters continue to prefer an integrated student.

Couldnít agree more, very well said....

RudderTrimZero 29th Jan 2018 10:40

Primera Air will be taking on lots of cadets soon as they are running out of options to crew for their massive expansion plans. I don't know the channel through which they are getting them or which flight school they have a relationship with (if any) but get in touch with Mountain High aviation agency.

Warning. CTC will have a good reason for not finding your friend employment, especially in this current environment of jobs galore. It really hasn't been this good since I started out 20 years ago. Whether that be due to performance, or as is more common these days amongst kids, their own attitude and conduct only you or he will truly know.

What I will say is that the quality of cadets (not the training) even from the great sausage factories is not what it used to be. The astronaut like selection/assessment process seems unable to weed out those with serious attitude problems and unworthy behavioral traits. On the hand, it's good at weeding out people with mature personalities who might pose a challenge to the status quo. At my last airline we had a whole bunch of showoffs, please-me types who were only interested in selfies and making go-pro videos, and even downright psychotic liars who were universally hated for the amount of BS they would invent. Most of them from CTC. Seems the psych tests are not interested in maturity and life experience.

Good luck

PA28161 29th Jan 2018 10:47

Just curious but why are you posting this and not your friend; is he not capable of explaining his own situation? Are you and your friend one and the same person?:rolleyes:

PA28161 29th Jan 2018 10:50


Originally Posted by Cirrussy (Post 10034861)
CTC and Jerez have pumped out some of the biggest guff I've ever had to fly with! Give me someone with a set of brains, a go-get attitude any day. To me, that means modular... Can't understand for the life of me why the recruiters continue to prefer an integrated student.

I couldn't agree more; well said Cirrussy

Trossie 29th Jan 2018 11:34


Originally Posted by PA28161 (Post 10034961)
Just curious but why are you posting this and not your friend; is he not capable of explaining his own situation? Are you and your friend one and the same person?:rolleyes:

Probably a very accurate post!

CTC got you a licence. From now on it's up to you. Not all aeroplanes are over 50 tons with two big jets engines under the wings. There are lots of turbo-prop jobs out there.

... what was your average wait for a position?
Probably in those circles at the moment "How soon can you start?"

But then, if you are too snooty to get a turbo-prop job and add some real experience to your C.V., may you wallow in debt for a whole lot longer.

Cirrussy 29th Jan 2018 11:36

Thanks.

With respect to RudderTrimZero's comments, I would also have to agree.

If for no other reason than "great company in the cockpit" (and there ARE many more reasons) I would choose a modular FO any day.

Other reasons inlcude:

Self-confidence (not to be confused with arrogance - a trait from CTC, etc)
A personality (which gets you further than your CTC wings, in my book)
Wider variety of experience (different aircraft types, different weather)
Exposure to a variety of training techniques
Appreciate the value of money
Appreciate the value of a job
Appreciate the value of doing a job they enjoy
Previous career could be of use (e.g. engineering)
Likely to be a grown up
Less inclined for selfies

Sometimes if I arrive into the car park at work a little earlier than planned, I enjoy a few minutes of peace before setting off for the crew room. I often catch a fresh CTC graduate dawdling with significant swagger, sunglasses on, mobile in one hand, jacket unbuttoned. If nothing else, CTC definitely teach them to look the part... And it boils my pish!

As you can probably tell, I have no strong opinions on this subject!

ChrisE 29th Jan 2018 12:18


Originally Posted by PA28161 (Post 10034961)
Just curious but why are you posting this and not your friend; is he not capable of explaining his own situation? Are you and your friend one and the same person?:rolleyes:

No, I'm quite happy in my charter airline thanks very much. Nobody likes to see friends or family downbeat so I'm doing everything I can to help him. I'm sure if the shoe was on the other foot you'd do the same if you were a good friend. 3 years of rejection emails is likely to dampen anybodies spirit so I'm trying to get advice from fellow pilots who might've been through something similar.

Quite simply all I'm asking for is advice on potential opportunities, no matter how obscure (because he's not one of those CTC lads that expects the world and thinks anything under a CFM56 is beneath him). I didn't come onto this forum for opinionated views on CTC, because believe me, as an ex CTC guy myself, I too can't stand them as an organisation.

magicmick 29th Jan 2018 12:19

Great posts RudderTrimZero and Cirrussy, itís a shame more senior hiring people donít share your opinions. Though as a self confident, adult modular trained individual with a previous engineering career, an appreciation of the value of money and of a job plus no inclination for selfies or social media then I would agree with you both.

As such I do not expect preference for modular over the lantern jawed integrated sky gods but a level(ler) playing field would be nice.

Officer Kite 29th Jan 2018 13:32

awful levels of bitterness on here, good grief!

flash8 29th Jan 2018 15:00

Just goes to show how low we have fallen the last few years or so.

Self improver, instructing, turboprop, first (often clockwork) jet... the old days when you showed your determination and not your wallet.

Anybody literally with £100K spare cash to burn now can be RHS of a 737/A320, button twiddling magenta line clowns with a facebook fan base, and no aptitude? Don't worry... just throw more cash (training) at it... oh yes Kos should have been a warning.

MaverickPrime 29th Jan 2018 15:54

From interviews and events I’ve attended in the past, I can assert that some of the people recruiting these sky gods from CTC et al are of the same ilk.

a350pilots 29th Jan 2018 16:33


Stocious 29th Jan 2018 16:34

Cirrussy

:ugh:

I can't begin to describe my consternation at all of that nonsense and general preconceptions, but CTC being blamed for uniform standards in other airlines now? The mind boggles.

Cirrussy 29th Jan 2018 16:41

Speechless...!

Cirrussy 29th Jan 2018 16:45


Originally Posted by Stocious (Post 10035323)
:ugh:

I can't begin to describe my consternation at all of that nonsense and general preconceptions, but CTC being blamed for uniform standards in other airlines now? The mind boggles.

Another delicate little flower from CTC finds him/herself offended by a bit of straight talking. Cute.

FlipFlapFlop 29th Jan 2018 16:54

Sorry ChrisE, assumed you were not in the aviation industry from your original post. Are you saying now that your friend has been in a hold pool for 3 years following CTC qualification ?

Stocious 29th Jan 2018 17:08


Originally Posted by Cirrussy (Post 10035336)
Another delicate little flower from CTC finds him/herself offended by a bit of straight talking. Cute.

Rude. If you knew of my background prior to CTC (strangely, a lot of us do have them) you'd realise I'm not exactly a 'delicate little flower'.

Just goes to show that despite the many ways into this job, :mad: can come from all avenues.

Lexsis 29th Jan 2018 17:39

Quite a few keyboard heroes in this thread, keep it going guys, Im having some more popcorn while reading this.

Someone just asking advice/doing some networking for a friend, and just look how some people are replying....

Edit: That must have been one of the bigger cringeworthy videos I have seen in a while...

Contact Approach 29th Jan 2018 17:52

That video made my eyes bleed.

Cirrussy 29th Jan 2018 17:53

Stocious, I apologise. I'm being antagonistic, and I do realise that you aren't all a bad bunch!

Unfortunately, a natural pilot will be a natural pilot no matter where they learn to fly. A Mummy's boy with £100k to blow straight after school will most likely go to the big training establishments (and sadly go on to get a job).

The elephant in the room, however, is that the original poster's mate went to CTC and isn't getting jobs. Maybe he's just not up to it? Maybe he's an unlikeable character in interview? As has been stated already, you might have a licence but there's no entitlement to a job.

Officer Kite 29th Jan 2018 17:56

Joey Essex is becoming a pilot!?

Anyway ... "As far as I know, you can't start ground school until you're 18 years old, however ..." - WRONG!

Whats the point in giving out info if your info is wrong.

flash8 29th Jan 2018 17:59


That video made my eyes bleed.
And that isn't even representative of the whole rotten ethos!

This is what happens when the whole thing becomes marketing, with aptitude and ability not even a close second to cash, failed your IR? No problem.... more dosh please.

Sorry I was raised the old way, and whilst might be considered a dinosaur it was only twenty years ago everything was completely different, at least then the cadetships that existed (BA) took good quality motivated candidates with aptitude and all this CTC (and others) money "route" didn't thankfully exist.

And wtf is that "uniform"?

Pilot2/b 29th Jan 2018 19:25

CTC student plugging Bristol GS study material.
You canít make this up!

SFCC 29th Jan 2018 19:56

I'd not let that youth do a PA until he'd grasped how to say words with 'th' in them properly.


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