PPRuNe Forums - PIC hours as Cruise/Relief Captain

PPRuNe Forums (https://www.pprune.org/)

- Terms and Endearment (https://www.pprune.org/terms-endearment-38/)

- - PIC hours as Cruise/Relief Captain (https://www.pprune.org/terms-endearment/595230-pic-hours-cruise-relief-captain.html)

Quote:

These discussions occur every 28 days ( or is it 30?) and always ends in the same drama.

:)

I agree wholeheartedly, hence:

Quote:

If only there was an organisation that harmonised the way these things should be done

Quote:

Originally Posted by B2N2 (Post 9787869)

Under FAA there is such a thing as SIC type rating.
Anyway, when flying with an instructor both log PIC.
When an applicant flies with an examiner both log PIC.

There is only ONE PIC on an a/c and he is usually nominated by the company.
What if you have an FO who was flying as a CPT in a previous company, maybe even on the same type, he then logs all is PF as PIC, come on you can't be serious with that.

From the input it appears an FO in FAA world could end up with 1000s of PIC hrs on type without having done an upgrade course or be shown the the schedule as PIC? Really is la la land! In simple terms one pilot is designated Captain for the leg and if you don't hold the rank of Captain it should not be claimed as PIC.. The phrase PIC refers to more than just sitting in the chair, it is an authority given by the airline and a legal responsibility given by the licensing authority . The authority of the Commander is clearly written in airline OMA and doesn't mention transferring that authority just "tasks" if the. Commander is incapacitated etc.

Quote:

In simple terms one pilot is designated Captain for the leg and if you don't hold the rank of Captain it should not be claimed as PIC.

One pilot is designated Commander for the flight or series of flights. Captain is a company rank; Commander carries a legal definition.

I'm not sure how the FAA system is justifiable. How on earth can you have more than one pilot in command?

Mountain:Molehill

Captain P1
FO P2

Also, designated 'in-command' pilot should remain in their normal / operating seat. They don't occupy the left seat just to be 'in-charge'.

Everyone wants to be the Captain!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akrapovic (Post 9788192)

Mountain:Molehill

Captain P1
FO P2

Also, designated 'in-command' pilot should remain in their normal / operating seat. They don't occupy the left seat just to be 'in-charge'.

I would argue that is actually not the intended aim of the EASA regulation. Yes, there can only one commander per flight, however, no, he doesn't have to be in the operating seat. For example for a large part of a command course the commander will sit on the jump seat, while the trainee sits in the left seat.

Here, during the command course, the training captain is only the designated commander when he sits in an operating seat (i.e. RHS). When the training captain is on the jumpseat, the LHS pilot (i.e. the trainee) is the designated commander.

Quote:

Originally Posted by B2N2 (Post 9787869)

Under FAA there is such a thing as SIC type rating.
Anyway, when flying with an instructor both log PIC.
When an applicant flies with an examiner both log PIC.

Europe or the U.K. rather are the ones that muddy the water with
PIC
SPIC
PICUS

If you're qualified to fly the plane you log it as PIC when you're flying the plane.
In FAA land.
I'm bowing out.
These discussions occur every 28 days ( or is it 30?) and always ends in the same drama.
Look up your countries regs and save some bandwith.
JHTFC

Cool, take a genuine question, take offence (or is that offense according to the FAA), and take off.
For anyone that just wants to answer the question: I know there is an SiC rating, what differentiates a "SiC type rating" from a "PiC rating"?

Who carries the can if something goes belly-up?

Since you've further muddied the water, however, what countries allow a student pilot to log PiC alongside their instructor???

If the "applicant" fails his flight test with the examiner, do they both still log PiC?

It's hard to imagine separating each category as per Europe, is an example of muddy water, when the FAA just lumps all of them in together!
ad absurdism, can a Second Officer (yes, parts of the world have them) log PiC on a heavy jet that they hold a "full" type rating on - if they are PF? Is this, or was this the intent?

Instead of feeling the need to defend the FAA and/or your country, the "...that's not particularly logical though is it?", was actually an (admittedly obtuse) attempt to engage your thoughts on the subject. It's not actually a "drama", just tangential development of a discussion...

They may pop up every airac cycle, my cycle is more like 15 years and I'm constantly reminded why....

Quote:

Look up your countries regs and save some bandwith.

In every country where I have flown, on their register, then the only PIC, who can log PIC, is the nominated captain who has the authority to sign for the aeroplane, both tech log and load sheet and that authority is only given to a fully qualified captain, on a multi crew aeroplane that qualification involves passing a command course. I would be very surprised if the FAA was any different as there is the legal aspect to be considered too and a type rated qualified FO, appointed as such, cannot be held responsible as PIC.

The 'sole manipulator' guff clearly only applies to single pilot aircraft

61.51e refers to two pilot aircraft in a separate paragraph. It requires that you be actual PIC, or on an approved PIC training program AND the actual PIC must sign your logbook to show instruction given. (IE: exactly what is known in EASA as PIC/us.)
The bottom line is: If you're an FO then everything is SIC whether you flew it or not.