PIC hours as Cruise/Relief Captain
Hello guys,
I've got a question for long hauls FOs pls..:rolleyes: When you fly in augmented flight crew, and your company standards is 1 Cpt and 2 or more FOs.. 1) are you defined as Cruise/Relief Captain or Senior First Officer? 2) can you log PIC flight time in your logbook for the time your Cpt is resting? |
P2, Relief Captain is FO qualified to sit on LHS for certain procedures not PIC. Record as P2.
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Doesn´t matter how you name it, Relief CPT or Senior FO, as long as you are qualified to sit in the left seat during cruise and its no PIC time, the CPT is still the PIC.
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How about Captain assigned for relief duty, ie. 2 Capt and 1 F/O crew?
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I suspect it would be the way we do on 2 capt/2 F/O sectors - one of the Capts is the designated commander for the sector (detailed on the roster), he/she signs all the paperwork, and he/she claims all the flight time as Commander/PIC/Captain. The "heavy" captain doesn't log any PIC time.
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In China most crews have 4 pilots and the Captains split the time ie 1/2 as PIC and 1/2 as Other time but it is highly questionable outside of China. Most CAAs only want you to log the PIC if you are the actual PIC assigned on the paperwork ie the Flight Authorization or Flight Release. Korean Airlines knows there are many shenanigans and con artists logging PIC so expect full validation by your company and CAA regarding your flight time. The FAA does not issue any such validation. My advice is be conservative and only log the time as PIC if you signed the paperwork and your name is listed on the release as the PIC otherwise you can be terminated at any time they find out you have fraudulently logged flight time. If you sit in the seat as a Relief Officer just log SIC.
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ok so..
what about an europen airline that has got this SOPs: "During the rest period of the Commander, the SIC assumes the responsability of the airplane, crew and passenger.. acting as PIC". the senior first officer becomes PIC. so... it depends from national authority right? |
What I see there MAAZ is "...acting as PiC"
There is only one pilot-in-command for a flight....surely? |
Flew for EK many moons ago in capacity of SFO. when we had 1 Capt 2 FOs or 2 CAPT 2FOs on the flight only One was the designated PIC on that flight. I spent many hours in the LHS during cruise never logged a single hour PIC.
The one who signs the paperwork is the PIC. |
It's not what authorities 'feel' or 'want' or how they 'see' things.
It's how the rules are written. Under FAA rules you can log PIC when you have a PIC type rating on the aircraft. So when the Capt is asleep in the bunk and you are "at the wheel" you can legally log PIC. So can the Capt, even asleep. Previous airline I worked for logged the PF legs as PIC in their records. So the FO as PF would be logged as PIC. However, this is not what they ask for on applications or in interviews. Then only your 4-stripe time is PIC. |
MAAZ
what about an europen airline that has got this SOPs..... FWIW our EASA'land airline words the relevant section of it's Ops manual in this manner: "A Captain or other suitably qualified pilot may temporarily act as PIC in flight during periods when the designated PIC is taking rest. He/she will remain under the overall authority of the designated PIC." (my emphasis). So certainly in our case there's a single, designated PIC who has overall authority for the entire flight (and then elsewhere in the ops manual it is made clear they are the only pilot who can log command/PIC hours for the sector). |
Middle European airline here, quite clear wording in our OM/A. "Seating position" in this case, the rest area for augmented crews is a blocked business seat, no bunks in our planes. During training the commander can be seated on the jump seat as well.
All flights shall be planned and carried out with a qualified commander. The commander is legally responsible for the operation of the aeroplane, irrespective of the seating position. |
Originally Posted by wiggy
(Post 9786913)
FWIW our EASA'land airline words the relevant section of it's Ops manual in this manner: "A Captain or other suitably qualified pilot may temporarily act as PIC in flight during periods when the designated PIC is taking rest. He/she will remain under the overall authority of the designated PIC." (my emphasis).
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The licencing authority sets out the rules for logging flight time, not the airline.
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What a complete mess and ample demonstration of why some people claim to have experience which they really don't possess.
How can a first officer EVER be PIC? In truth, he can't but that doesn't mean some pilots aren't claiming it. As alluded to above, the FAA have a daft regulation that says if you're qualified as a PIC on an aircraft then you can claim hours as a PIC and I've seen this in operation. When I've flown captain/captain with an FAA licensed pilot and the guy in the right seat is acting as PM and is NOT on any paperwork as PIC, he has claimed the hours as P1/PIC (whatever you want to call it), despite the fact that I was the PIC. In the same situation, I've claimed only P2 hours. Small wonder that some of our guys have exaggerated PIC experience with regulations like that. I am NOT blaming the pilots because that's what the FAA says but I am blaming the authorities that can't get their act together and sort out exactly what should and shouldn't be claimed. Surely it is ridiculous that two people can claim to be PIC on a flight. Throw into the ring the added complication of some authorities having command ratings and others having no such thing or the differences in interpretation of PICUS and it just makes a complete mess of the whole thing. If only there was an organisation that harmonised the way these things should be done :rolleyes: |
Under FAA rules of you hold a PIC type rating ( not an SIC only type rating) you can log PIC for the time you are the Pilot Flying.
So the Captain logs PIC for the entire duration of the flight including the time he is asleep. The FO will log PIC for the time he or she is the PF. It really is that simple. |
It may be "that simple", that's not particularly logical though is it? Two pilotS-in-command seems a bit odd. Who carries the can if something goes belly-up on the F/Os watch?
What is a SiC type-rating anyway? How would a type rating test differ from a "full" rating test? As Pontius suggests, it does muddy the waters somewhat when trying to compare apples with apples..... |
qualified as a PIC on an aircraft |
Under FAA rules of you hold a PIC type rating ( not an SIC only type rating) you can log PIC for the time you are the Pilot Flying........The FO will log PIC for the time he or she is the PF......It really is that simple |
Originally Posted by RubberDogPoop
(Post 9787848)
It may be "that simple", that's not particularly logical though is it? Two pilotS-in-command seems a bit odd. Who carries the can if something goes belly-up on the F/Os watch?
What is a SiC type-rating anyway? How would a type rating test differ from a "full" rating test? As Pontius suggests, it does muddy the waters somewhat when trying to compare apples with apples..... Anyway, when flying with an instructor both log PIC. When an applicant flies with an examiner both log PIC. Europe or the U.K. rather are the ones that muddy the water with PIC SPIC PICUS If you're qualified to fly the plane you log it as PIC when you're flying the plane. In FAA land. I'm bowing out. These discussions occur every 28 days ( or is it 30?) and always ends in the same drama. Look up your countries regs and save some bandwith. JHTFC |
These discussions occur every 28 days ( or is it 30?) and always ends in the same drama. I agree wholeheartedly, hence: If only there was an organisation that harmonised the way these things should be done |
Originally Posted by B2N2
(Post 9787869)
Under FAA there is such a thing as SIC type rating.
Anyway, when flying with an instructor both log PIC. When an applicant flies with an examiner both log PIC. What if you have an FO who was flying as a CPT in a previous company, maybe even on the same type, he then logs all is PF as PIC, come on you can't be serious with that. |
From the input it appears an FO in FAA world could end up with 1000s of PIC hrs on type without having done an upgrade course or be shown the the schedule as PIC? Really is la la land! In simple terms one pilot is designated Captain for the leg and if you don't hold the rank of Captain it should not be claimed as PIC.. The phrase PIC refers to more than just sitting in the chair, it is an authority given by the airline and a legal responsibility given by the licensing authority . The authority of the Commander is clearly written in airline OMA and doesn't mention transferring that authority just "tasks" if the. Commander is incapacitated etc.
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In simple terms one pilot is designated Captain for the leg and if you don't hold the rank of Captain it should not be claimed as PIC. I'm not sure how the FAA system is justifiable. How on earth can you have more than one pilot in command? |
Mountain:Molehill
Captain P1 FO P2 Also, designated 'in-command' pilot should remain in their normal / operating seat. They don't occupy the left seat just to be 'in-charge'. |
Everyone wants to be the Captain!
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Originally Posted by Akrapovic
(Post 9788192)
Mountain:Molehill
Captain P1 FO P2 Also, designated 'in-command' pilot should remain in their normal / operating seat. They don't occupy the left seat just to be 'in-charge'. |
Here, during the command course, the training captain is only the designated commander when he sits in an operating seat (i.e. RHS). When the training captain is on the jumpseat, the LHS pilot (i.e. the trainee) is the designated commander.
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Originally Posted by B2N2
(Post 9787869)
Under FAA there is such a thing as SIC type rating.
Anyway, when flying with an instructor both log PIC. When an applicant flies with an examiner both log PIC. Europe or the U.K. rather are the ones that muddy the water with PIC SPIC PICUS If you're qualified to fly the plane you log it as PIC when you're flying the plane. In FAA land. I'm bowing out. These discussions occur every 28 days ( or is it 30?) and always ends in the same drama. Look up your countries regs and save some bandwith. JHTFC For anyone that just wants to answer the question: I know there is an SiC rating, what differentiates a "SiC type rating" from a "PiC rating"? Who carries the can if something goes belly-up? Since you've further muddied the water, however, what countries allow a student pilot to log PiC alongside their instructor??? If the "applicant" fails his flight test with the examiner, do they both still log PiC? It's hard to imagine separating each category as per Europe, is an example of muddy water, when the FAA just lumps all of them in together! ad absurdism, can a Second Officer (yes, parts of the world have them) log PiC on a heavy jet that they hold a "full" type rating on - if they are PF? Is this, or was this the intent? Instead of feeling the need to defend the FAA and/or your country, the "...that's not particularly logical though is it?", was actually an (admittedly obtuse) attempt to engage your thoughts on the subject. It's not actually a "drama", just tangential development of a discussion... They may pop up every airac cycle, my cycle is more like 15 years and I'm constantly reminded why.... |
Look up your countries regs and save some bandwith. |
The 'sole manipulator' guff clearly only applies to single pilot aircraft
61.51e refers to two pilot aircraft in a separate paragraph. It requires that you be actual PIC, or on an approved PIC training program AND the actual PIC must sign your logbook to show instruction given. (IE: exactly what is known in EASA as PIC/us.) The bottom line is: If you're an FO then everything is SIC whether you flew it or not. |
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