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PIC hours as Cruise/Relief Captain

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PIC hours as Cruise/Relief Captain

Old 29th May 2017, 10:56
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PIC hours as Cruise/Relief Captain

Hello guys,
I've got a question for long hauls FOs pls..

When you fly in augmented flight crew, and your company standards is 1 Cpt and 2 or more FOs..
1) are you defined as Cruise/Relief Captain or Senior First Officer?
2) can you log PIC flight time in your logbook for the time your Cpt is resting?
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Old 29th May 2017, 12:14
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P2, Relief Captain is FO qualified to sit on LHS for certain procedures not PIC. Record as P2.
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Old 29th May 2017, 12:57
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EAM
 
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Doesn´t matter how you name it, Relief CPT or Senior FO, as long as you are qualified to sit in the left seat during cruise and its no PIC time, the CPT is still the PIC.
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Old 29th May 2017, 13:36
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How about Captain assigned for relief duty, ie. 2 Capt and 1 F/O crew?
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Old 29th May 2017, 14:21
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I suspect it would be the way we do on 2 capt/2 F/O sectors - one of the Capts is the designated commander for the sector (detailed on the roster), he/she signs all the paperwork, and he/she claims all the flight time as Commander/PIC/Captain. The "heavy" captain doesn't log any PIC time.
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Old 29th May 2017, 14:39
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In China most crews have 4 pilots and the Captains split the time ie 1/2 as PIC and 1/2 as Other time but it is highly questionable outside of China. Most CAAs only want you to log the PIC if you are the actual PIC assigned on the paperwork ie the Flight Authorization or Flight Release. Korean Airlines knows there are many shenanigans and con artists logging PIC so expect full validation by your company and CAA regarding your flight time. The FAA does not issue any such validation. My advice is be conservative and only log the time as PIC if you signed the paperwork and your name is listed on the release as the PIC otherwise you can be terminated at any time they find out you have fraudulently logged flight time. If you sit in the seat as a Relief Officer just log SIC.
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Old 29th May 2017, 22:26
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ok so..
what about an europen airline that has got this SOPs:

"During the rest period of the Commander, the SIC assumes the responsability of the airplane, crew and passenger.. acting as PIC".

the senior first officer becomes PIC.

so... it depends from national authority right?
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Old 30th May 2017, 03:01
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What I see there MAAZ is "...acting as PiC"
There is only one pilot-in-command for a flight....surely?
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Old 30th May 2017, 06:01
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Flew for EK many moons ago in capacity of SFO. when we had 1 Capt 2 FOs or 2 CAPT 2FOs on the flight only One was the designated PIC on that flight. I spent many hours in the LHS during cruise never logged a single hour PIC.

The one who signs the paperwork is the PIC.
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Old 30th May 2017, 06:12
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It's not what authorities 'feel' or 'want' or how they 'see' things.
It's how the rules are written.
Under FAA rules you can log PIC when you have a PIC type rating on the aircraft.
So when the Capt is asleep in the bunk and you are "at the wheel" you can legally log PIC.
So can the Capt, even asleep.
Previous airline I worked for logged the PF legs as PIC in their records.
So the FO as PF would be logged as PIC.

However, this is not what they ask for on applications or in interviews.
Then only your 4-stripe time is PIC.
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Old 30th May 2017, 06:16
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MAAZ

what about an europen airline that has got this SOPs.....
I agree with rubberdogpoo (!!!!), the word "acting" or "act" is probably of significance.

FWIW our EASA'land airline words the relevant section of it's Ops manual in this manner: "A Captain or other suitably qualified pilot may temporarily act as PIC in flight during periods when the designated PIC is taking rest. He/she will remain under the overall authority of the designated PIC." (my emphasis).

So certainly in our case there's a single, designated PIC who has overall authority for the entire flight (and then elsewhere in the ops manual it is made clear they are the only pilot who can log command/PIC hours for the sector).

Last edited by wiggy; 30th May 2017 at 08:15.
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Old 30th May 2017, 12:10
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Middle European airline here, quite clear wording in our OM/A. "Seating position" in this case, the rest area for augmented crews is a blocked business seat, no bunks in our planes. During training the commander can be seated on the jump seat as well.

All flights shall be planned and carried out with a qualified commander. The commander is legally responsible for the operation of the aeroplane, irrespective of the seating position.
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Old 30th May 2017, 20:46
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Originally Posted by wiggy View Post
FWIW our EASA'land airline words the relevant section of it's Ops manual in this manner: "A Captain or other suitably qualified pilot may temporarily act as PIC in flight during periods when the designated PIC is taking rest. He/she will remain under the overall authority of the designated PIC." (my emphasis).
so, in your airline, when you act as PIC why you cannot log that flight time as PIC? ... as many airlines do?
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Old 30th May 2017, 21:18
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The licencing authority sets out the rules for logging flight time, not the airline.
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Old 30th May 2017, 22:19
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What a complete mess and ample demonstration of why some people claim to have experience which they really don't possess.

How can a first officer EVER be PIC? In truth, he can't but that doesn't mean some pilots aren't claiming it. As alluded to above, the FAA have a daft regulation that says if you're qualified as a PIC on an aircraft then you can claim hours as a PIC and I've seen this in operation. When I've flown captain/captain with an FAA licensed pilot and the guy in the right seat is acting as PM and is NOT on any paperwork as PIC, he has claimed the hours as P1/PIC (whatever you want to call it), despite the fact that I was the PIC. In the same situation, I've claimed only P2 hours. Small wonder that some of our guys have exaggerated PIC experience with regulations like that. I am NOT blaming the pilots because that's what the FAA says but I am blaming the authorities that can't get their act together and sort out exactly what should and shouldn't be claimed. Surely it is ridiculous that two people can claim to be PIC on a flight. Throw into the ring the added complication of some authorities having command ratings and others having no such thing or the differences in interpretation of PICUS and it just makes a complete mess of the whole thing.

If only there was an organisation that harmonised the way these things should be done
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Old 30th May 2017, 23:14
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Under FAA rules of you hold a PIC type rating ( not an SIC only type rating) you can log PIC for the time you are the Pilot Flying.
So the Captain logs PIC for the entire duration of the flight including the time he is asleep.
The FO will log PIC for the time he or she is the PF.
It really is that simple.
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Old 31st May 2017, 01:35
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It may be "that simple", that's not particularly logical though is it? Two pilotS-in-command seems a bit odd. Who carries the can if something goes belly-up on the F/Os watch?
What is a SiC type-rating anyway? How would a type rating test differ from a "full" rating test?

As Pontius suggests, it does muddy the waters somewhat when trying to compare apples with apples.....
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Old 31st May 2017, 01:38
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qualified as a PIC on an aircraft
for me that would include a command course successfully completed. Under the FAA ruling, to me, that is still P1(U/S) since there is a captain on board and as soon as any abnormal/emergency situation arises the Captain will be woken up.
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Old 31st May 2017, 02:08
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Under FAA rules of you hold a PIC type rating ( not an SIC only type rating) you can log PIC for the time you are the Pilot Flying........The FO will log PIC for the time he or she is the PF......It really is that simple
Well, it is simple but (a)it means that I'm sitting next to someone who claims to have X 000 hours as PIC when they've got nothing of the sort and (b)it means I'm sitting next to another captain and he's claiming PIC hours from the right seat, when I'm the actual PIC in the left seat. Absolute bloody nonsense, no matter how simple.
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Old 31st May 2017, 02:08
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Originally Posted by RubberDogPoop View Post
It may be "that simple", that's not particularly logical though is it? Two pilotS-in-command seems a bit odd. Who carries the can if something goes belly-up on the F/Os watch?
What is a SiC type-rating anyway? How would a type rating test differ from a "full" rating test?

As Pontius suggests, it does muddy the waters somewhat when trying to compare apples with apples.....
Under FAA there is such a thing as SIC type rating.
Anyway, when flying with an instructor both log PIC.
When an applicant flies with an examiner both log PIC.

Europe or the U.K. rather are the ones that muddy the water with
PIC
SPIC
PICUS

If you're qualified to fly the plane you log it as PIC when you're flying the plane.
In FAA land.
I'm bowing out.
These discussions occur every 28 days ( or is it 30?) and always ends in the same drama.
Look up your countries regs and save some bandwith.
JHTFC

Last edited by B2N2; 31st May 2017 at 04:31.
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