I'm thinking of ejecting. Any last hail Marys out there?
 

I have my hands on the ejection handles from this industry. Now, simple question. Is there a company out there that you would actually recommend? I can relocate but I want some kind of dignity. Management that keeps a promise, a salary that arrives on time, a roster that doesn't cause chronic fatigue and a sense om team work. Perhaps a flight deck where the discussion from briefing to shut down is not about worry over getting fired or rumours that the next salary will be cut in half. If all I get at the new job is a sweaty wad of currency then I'll take my chances as a stripper.

I'm current, over 7000hrs with 2500 Pic on medium jets.

Like I said, I could just as happily set the parking brake and walk away. It will have to be a career position or a new career. Many thanks.

Pull the handle.

I feel your pain. I pulled the handle at New Year. There is life after and you'll realise only then how wound up and fatigued you actually were. Have you presumably something to go to or something to pay the bills?

I miss the flying but not as much as I thought. I really miss my colleagues. However I have reprised family life and there's no substitute for that.

Best of luck to you.

I'am also considering it BUT i am afraid i will miss it. Also the money issue is a factor i am afraid of. For those who did, my deepest respect for you.

If you pull the ejection handle, you may end up like Goose....

Not necessarily , somethingclever has plenty of time to stabilize the ship, find the center of the envelope, choose a suitable location for landing then BOOM.....job done.

Electrician / Plumber / Ventilation technician. At least in Scandiland there is a shortage of skilled labour in these areas.
If I felt the need to jump ship, I would go for electrician or ventilation technician because in my line of work I have already been exposed to enough ****...

Been there but saw the light.

I was also very close to quitting this industry after just a year of landing my first paid job in 2012. I learnt to fly in my teens at the turn of the century and despite plans to go commercial in the early 2000s, I ended up in the technology industry as a contractor. I still take up the odd contract in between flying jobs till this day so never quite left the industry. In fact, I’m writing from the office PC right now. New flying position starts in a few months.

I also have a love/hate relationship with the tech industry. I love working with tech, I enjoy the diversity and the money is…(well, let’s just say it’s more than what a mid-level BA captain would clear at the end of the month), but honestly speaking, the industry is full of cowboys and wingers, particularly in management (and it's getting worse). If it’s one thing I can’t stand, it’s phonies and they are everywhere in IT (not just aviation :p). The IT environments’ of big companies are becoming hybrid pieces of junk that are incredibly difficult to support and develop as management continue to reduce cost by outsourcing to India where a monkey say, monkey-do attitude prevails and common sense is severely lacking. Added to that: The view is crap; I have to commute by train/tube daily and constantly have to take my work/thoughts home with me in preparation for the next day. That is no great life either I can assure you. As a result of the love/hate relationship, half the time the money is simply not worth the aggravation and I’ve frequently walked away from contracts before they expired just to get my sanity back.

When I landed my first commercial flying job, I was at the top of my game in my old industry and thus had to start off at the bottom of the pit. I was subjected to stupidity and inefficiencies the likes of which I didn’t think existed anywhere. How could the airline industry prosper with so much nonsense was my first thought. Everything from hiring practices through to training, the mind numbingly duplicative SOPs and receiving a pay check was a complete disaster. Where I flew, the skippers were mostly pyschos with zero personality and inability to comprehend that a 30 year old might actually know a thing or two about life despite being new to flying. I ran away from the place with no firm job offer from anyone else! It was at this point, I questioned all and found myself at a very low point in life. Luck changed, I then found a seasonal position which allowed me to fly in the summer and earn decent money doing what I used to do in the winter but there was never any guarantees of getting the right base. As such whenever I was away from home, I would be £1k out of pocket just to live in two places (family at home).

This year I believe I have finally found what appears to be the perfect job. It’s local, pay is above average for new FOs, perks are average to decent and it’s a perm contract from day one but with option to go part season. From what I’ve heard, I can expect around 650-700 hours per year and almost everyone is very happy to be there. Oh and working for a unionised company, never have done that! I am honestly looking forward to it all after all the hardship I’ve endured just to get a job in the land I call home! Sure, it has it’s down sides but everything in life does. You have to experience both sides to make the best decision. Of course, I cannot continue to be the same high rolling tech specialist I am when I’m not flying. However, I’ve just launched a new business idea that will enable me to keep a finger in the tech world pie, whilst making that little bit extra on the side of my permanent salary.

Sorry for my caustic comment earlier.

I'm a regional jet pilot, put up with all the :mad: and trauma that you describe, and put up with it for years. My ex colleagues are still putting up with it. I feel their pain.

But now, eesa happy time for me! And maybe it could be for you too.

Answer, simples. Leave the UK.

I now get paid 7500/ month. No tax.
I do the same work, but less of it. I'm treated like a minor celeb. Have a lovely young GF, and have never been happier. I dread my visits to the UK.

If you are unhappy with your lot, do something about it.

You can't always have what you want. But sometimes, you get what you need.:ok:

I had a neighbor who was a cargo capt.

One day he pulled it, and bought a tip-top little flat in an old watermill transformed in 6 flats.

He lives in a wonderful valley, surrounded by a gentle river, in a touristic little town in the center of Europe, the owner pays him the basic salary of the country (1500€) and he is the manager of the lot.

Takes care of the bills, optimizes the oil consumption in winter in Excel, has a great family life.

Nobody (nearly) to report to.

What else should anyone need?

I didn't really understand him at that time. This was before I started my career in south east Asia.

Hear the Bang!
See em Fly.
Martin Baker rules the Sky...... :)

I might know of a decent company or two, but they're not hiring and might not do so for a while. How about instruction?

Have you considered any academic courses? You might find some possibilities in Scandinavia, if that's your turf.

I've heard stories of sick-of-the-job captains who got somewhat revitalised by some good old hands-on general aviation. I can really recommend gliders.

Best of luck.

as I come to the end of 2 weeks leave, I truly wish I could pull the handle as I know by the end of next week I'll be as knackered as I was 2 weeks ago!
Sadly too old, too unskilled for another job, mouths to feed and bills to pay, so I'll dream on and quietly envy those that have the balls and skills to enable them out of what has become a 2nd rate job. Oh, and I'm one of the lucky ones as far as employer is concerned.

If I could turn back time...
 

I gave up airline flying as a Captain in my thirties about fifteen years ago and I can honestly say that it was the best decision I ever made.

For the previous decade I was almost permanently tired, hassled and underpaid.

If I had my time again I certainly would not have put myself through all the stress and financial hardship that I suffered to gain my ATPL.

Initially I did miss the flying, however, that soon passed and now I would not return to professional flying under any circumstances.

Having followed the industry since I returned to my previous profession, I do feel sympathy for today's flightcrews.

Let me know if you find that new great job in the sky!!it ain't the sand pit for sure..Asia is trashed..and assuming you can breath without life support, you'll need a lung pump after 2 years..can I suggest Twin Otters in Vanuatu?..Atr in Tonga...Fly Africa?..corporate in Japan...may take your hand off that handle for a taste longer...

Slight thread creep here but, the worryingly frequent comment throughout this thread is that most who are still flying commercially are all "tired" and "knackered"! Not good is it. :(

I am in the same situation as macdo, I wish there was a way out but am too old and unskilled to find a job paying anything over minimum wage.

Good luck for the future I hope it all works out for you.

One RAF Tristar captain retiring at 55 decided he couldn't be bothered to learn about why exhaust valves are filled with sodium and other such non-essential rubbish, so he became a bus driver for the local Oxford bus company.

He was very happy with his new career, and as he pointed out, it wasn't much different. Just a lot less miles and a lot less fatigue.

I'd negotiate a part-time roster, or seasonal one. See how you feel then, both mentally & physically. 50% or 75% should be possible for any company. Indeed, is it not they case they have to show why they say No? Seasonal, with 75% in summer & 50% in winter might also work for you. It's not so all or nothing.
I empathise and spent my last 12 years at 50% the normal rate, but also I wasn't an employee. For those years it was very tolerable. The thought of full-time as an employee is not an option. That is both the disruptive working life-style and the common degrading work environment created by those at the top. Considering how far the technology has advanced and modernised it's a great mystery why the management style has reversed and now resembles that of middle ages 'Lord of the manor' with the forelock saluting peasants, or the mill owning robber barons of the 19th century. But we are not alone in this puddle of poo. Many industries now use 'zero hour contractors', much to the distaste of some UK MP's who spoke out about the practice. I note they didn't offer any solution or legislation, just condemnation. No doubt the share holding lobby would urge them to back off. All the EU labour employment legislation has not protected against such an explosion of abuse. One wonders just what they do all day long in the ivory towers of Brussels.

I can only empathise
 

I wish you well in your endeavours. Being an airline pilot was all I ever wanted to do from the age of 5, ended up in a well paid IT career and then decided to follow the dream in my early thirties. I was well paid and well rested in my old IT career and crucially I was off at the same time as my wife and child. I enjoyed my leisure time because I wasn't feeling completely exhausted after work and at weekends.

Eight years of regional/low cost aviation has been a variety of highs and lows - on a good day with an amiable colleague it's more enjoyable than my old IT life for sure, but the rosters are unbelievably fatiguing and it's my belief that the workload is detrimental to health, wellbeing, a family life and safety. I still don't earn what I earned as a lower level IT manager in 2002!!

Like many of you I'm tired of feeling knackered and feeling 'owned' by my employer, I am trying to go part time while also exploring quitting the rat race and starting a business - maybe a B&B or some kind of property investment/rental thing that means I can work at home, determine my own hours, be with my family e.g. when Daughter comes home from school, have time to exercise, read, relax - basically something that gives me a high quality of life in return for a modest income. As I work for a regional airline the money's not too hard to beat!!

If I knew then what I know now I'd have skipped the expenditure at Oxford and gone straight for the property investment and then taken a share in a Europa or something to toodle around in. Quite frankly I wouldn't miss the flying at all, the work life balance is appalling and the profession has gone down the tubes financially unlike IT, Consulting, medicine, law, accounting where you can still enjoy a very comfortable upper middle class lifestyle and stay in a country you want to live in.

Deep down you must realize that all this is unachievable. Pull the handle if you can.

Everyone I've known, including myself, who have jumped ship, gone part-time, or lost their medical and been forced to leave, have all been amazed at what an increase in quality of life they've achieved. They founds other means and realised that, even if the income was less, the better life style with family & friends & better health was worth more than whatever they lost in income. Sitting in an aluminium tube for 10 hours per day and ending up back where you started is hardly fun flying. Getting out of bed at 04.00 for 4 days, at home or some motel, is hardly fun flying. The days of lying on a beach for 4 days every week are over. Life is not a dry run rehearsal; go for it and enjoy it as best you can. Share some touring trips and aeros. Fly for fun, live for fun. They are not always the same thing.

Do you often ponder the potential safety implications of today's reality? How fatigue, internal and external stressors etc. can affect the margins?

Parts of the general public don't seem to appreciate it much when some pilots and others express their worries. They seem to assume that current regulations are adequate, and thus there is nothing to worry about. The fact that humans form an essential and vulnerable part of a larger and imperfect system seems to go right over their heads.

I have a friend who is a heart & lung surgeon; his wife is a gynaecological surgeon. Their stories about their rosters scares the living, or not, daylights out of me. They do not have an autopilot/autoland; they do not have check lists; they do not have a roster that allows protected sleep before major ops. They do a duty day and then 12 hours SBY: with a young family. An op can take 5-10 hrs and call out can be in the middle of the night, or just as you go to bed. It's frightening; and their dept's are as cash strapped as airines claim to be. Difference is the hospitals are not share-holder driven, but they are performance factor driven: comes to the same thing. The heart dept can only afford operations 4 days per week, because of funds. It is the greatest cause of death in some age groups. Not enough dosh, so die.
We are not alone. But money continues yet to wash its way around the financial system and markets. Bonuses are being paid to :mad:. Please! Priorities. Sometimes it makes me humble.

I must say I laugh at all the guys saying how knackered they are, I used to work 16 hour shifts on my feet back to back on less than 'minimum rest!!!' .....

Never had an easier job than flying for an airline, you all need a reality check.
Granted any job you have been doing for 20+ years will be tiring and there is no doubt it seems to be harder on the older guys, which I understand. But go out into the real world and see the dwindling T&C's across the board, and the next time you complain about doing 6 sectors think of the dispatchers and fuelers pulling 10-14 hour shifts on :mad: pay.

Go corporate if your sick of airlines, my friend (in his 40's for those who will inevitably lable me a young whippersnapper with no sense) flies for TAG and he absolutely loves it, 2 weeks on, 2 weeks off on 80K as an FO

Fuellers
 

I just wanted to comment on the poster who said he has to laugh at pilots saying how knackered they are - well it depends massively on what kind airline you fly for and what your sector lengths are. I fly for a regional - duty days are 8-11 hours, 4-6 flights a day (usually 4), roster pattern is 5 days on, 2 days off and I get up at 4.15am as many as 4 days in a row. As a right seat FO in my company with 7 years experience I learned recently that I earn LESS than the fuellers at Manchester - that's right the guy fuelling the plane makes more money than the guy flying it!! Mid to high £30's is what we earn and just bear in mind that a year 1 qualified train driver starts on £44k and I can assure you is far better protected in terms of rest breaks and days worked - they certainly aren't working 5 on 2 off I can assure you, and nor are the dispatchers, the fire crews, our own crewing dept, the engineers or anybody else. Try supporting a wife and kids on £35k in the South of England!!

You might have joined BA or Easyjet, you might be on £110k a year as an Easyjet Capt after 8 years with your 5/3 5/4 roster pattern but some of us are trapped on turboprops in the regionals or in Monarch in the right seat (which also pays £35k) where there has been restructuring and are working a heck of a lot harder for a lot less money.

Oh if somebody can send me a contact at TAG that sounds amazing!!

For anyone considering part-time working with their existing company, may I offer a word of caution. I went 75% with my airline last year - thirty days on roster, ten days off, having previously been flying 800 hrs plus with a mix of short/medium/longhaul. So far, I find myself flying at a rate which will produce 700 hrs this year and I am sure you can do the sums as well as I. Balpa believes the reduction of flying hours should be proportionate, the Company believes it has the right to roster up to FTL limits and of course they are about to change in the wrong direction. The roster machine now produces a schedule of long duty days/nights to maximise my productivity, no short days other than the odd ski flight. Net result, by the middle of my on-roster period, the old problem of tiredness raises its ugly head again and I find myself counting the days down until my next off-roster block.

My life-style has improved but not to the extent I had hoped for when I signed up for the deal.

Best regards from the world of the one-eyed teddy bear............

Yes...welcome to the new world order...try 900 HR rosters..min rest down route, min rest back home...then layer on being marginalised, a work to rule roster, a hatred of the coal face from management, bad air and ever reducing so called, benefits....

The grass on the other side of the fence is greener mostly because most of the contributors to this thread are painting it that way.

Thirty years ago I was in a big engineering company and like all UK industry it treated any one who got their hands dirty like S**t.

Going flying was much better in terms of the way I was regarded and the pay was not bad ...... Better than engineering !

There is no doubt that you can make better money than flying but the stresses are different, commuting on the tube, hours stuck in traffic, having your prices undercut by cheap immigrant labour, the VAT man Etc Etc..................

When I come home none of this stuff is nagging at the back of my mind.......I just shut the hangar doors.

Pull the Handel and you could get what you want but my guess is that you are just going to exchange one type of stress for another.

80k a year, let's all go to Tag!!

how about norwegian, aaaaahahahahahahaha

We have quite a few pilots on 75 and 50% contracts. The common comment for all I have spoken to is 'wish I had done it years ago'.
The other common thread in these conversations is that mostly they are in their late 50's or early 60's. Twenty years ago all these people would have been retired, but for various reasons have to or want to carry on and the mind maybe willing, but the flesh struggles to cope. It's well documented that shift work and night work reduce your life span.

I've previously been working relatively long shifts on my feet (with a good deal of carrying, running, climbing and so on) as unskilled labour in a poor work environment with lacking resources. The job turned into an unconventional effort to compensate for the shortcomings of local management. Minimum salary, poor terms. Things improved dramatically only after a corporate intervention.

It was an experience, to say the least. But I fail to see any rationale to use that experience to somehow justify deteriorating terms and conditions in commercial aviation, especially in light of the safety aspect. I don't expect golden salaries/pension/insurance compared to other industries in the same country, but I do expect professional treatment and a sound respect for margins.

Don't worry the bean counters are on to it!

Many years ago fuellers were employed by the oil co's and t&c's were great, but now all fuellers are employed by contracting companies and slowly but surely the t&c's are being eroded.

Just a couple of weeks ago I saw an advert for fuelling staff for one of the contractor companies at MAN, it was £15 per hour zero hours contract.

It seems we're all in a race to the bottom with t&c's

I think you'll find some of the old contract pursers at BA earn more than new contact Fo's!
and I personally knew a BA baggage handler at BA 15 years ago who was on nearly twice my wage as a new Tp FO!
By and large these are exceptions to the rule, but you have to laugh sometimes!

Upgrade
 

Upgrade to Capt gives a basic of about £61k I think which is respectable but still only barely comparable to some of the better FO jobs on jets.

Try something exotic. Nothing to lose if you want to quit anyway. Asia or Africa etc., anything outside your comfort zone.

I left Europe about 10 years ago. While I have my days, most certainly would not become a pilot again in the first place, in general no regrets about the move.

These are the people why I'm also thinking more and more about pulling the handle. Too many naive and brainwashed idiots in this profession who want to serve their own head on a plate to management in a desperate effort to appease them. Too many idiots who can't think 10-20 years into the future.

Maybe this particular form of Stockholm Syndrome is a side-effect of this much talked about Aerotoxic Syndrome? :ugh:

What to do?
 

As a A380 captain for one of the three Middle East Bigs, I must say that life is definitely very good.

It's a long way to the top, but once there, it's time to enjoy the good life...
Don't give up guys. There definitely are good gigs out there!

I too have had it with this industry and am actively looking at ways to leave, as said a long history with aviation makes starting a new career daunting especially with a family.

I recently posted this on another forum regarding declining conditions, mainstream jobs don't suffer the same continual degradation simply because people pack up and leave, something that rarely happens for aircrew, so while all jobs may be under attack seniority brings a whole other level of abuse.

If you can bang out, good luck just come back to let us know that it's possible.:ok: