Moon

I may be wrong but I think we might work for the same company !

A viable alternative, if you have a suitable type rating, is to go contracting.

Wish I'd done it years ago.

Now picking up nearly twice what I used to get with a well known Big Airline that Flys to Cities, no stress, enjoying the work and happier than I ever was at my previous organised slavery employer.

Had to learn to be a pilot again, which took a little while. BACF guys will understand.

It's not for everyone, but if it suits YOU, ya'll look back and wonder why you waited.....

:ok:

Interesting thread.

You always have to be careful in industries where they put you in a uniform. Usually, it means they are going to shaft you in some way: think security guards, armed forces, cabin crew, pilots.....

Do all those complaining of fatigue actually put in fatigue reports? That would be a start, (and I include myself in that). Fatigue when driving home is still fatigue caused by the rostering.

When I told my previous airline boss that working 6 on 2 off and starting on earlies, finishing on lates, was so fatiguing, he said you don't work that pattern as much as you think you do. (We did, so I left).

When I told my previous airline boss that working 6 on 2 off and starting on earlies, finishing on lates, was so fatiguing, he said you don't work that pattern as much as you think you do. (We did, so I left).

I once had a discussion with my C.P. We were rostered the minimum 8 days off per 28. It didn't matter if there was any work to do or not, only 8 days off. Sometime there were stupid days of positioning, single sector flight, taxi home. A very long day to achieve very little; but it had to be a duty day: or endless SBY's. I suggested that, as Ops worked 4 on 4 off with late & early shifts and a more restful duty roster; the more so considering they were not locked in a tiny box, the pilots might also deserve a shift pattern of days on/off.
"You don't work shifts. Case closed."

We did, so I left.

I too, had a similar experience.

At my first employer, Loganair, they were very easy about days off. If they didn't need you, they put you OFF.

However, that was in 1996......

After that, it was very much as described above, and with a very clear emphasis on how overpaid we all were.

I left.:p

I find it kind of funny that so many guys who have either quit the industry or are planning on it are still on pprune.

I read a lot of references to "hanging in there" for a big shiny jet and high salary, but honestly I would be careful. I would never try to quench a fellow aviator's passion but, if you are ready to walk away right now, you will be sick to your back teeth of the whole lifestyle in another 10 years if you stay..... long haul command or not. I am mid forties and working long haul for a very well respected carrier in Asia.......and I am done. At what should be the peak of my career, I have come to the tough realization that it is a mundane, thankless job with no scope for creativity, and it destroys any semblance of a normal family and/or social life. Now, it was all those things 20 years ago also, but with age comes perspective I suppose. For me it is time to let go and enjoy family and friends. I took a 2 year break a number of years ago. I know I will not miss it one bit.

Whatever you decide, best of luck.

Just pull the handle mate . . . enjoy that last blissful flight .

In 49 years of commercial aviation I was fired once, made redundant once, kicked out of one country during a revolution and saw three companies go belly up.
But I had a ball. No regrets about any of it, not even the financial losses (though they hurt at the time).
My last flight ended with the third bankruptcy, but I knew it was coming. Since then, I have not missed it one bit. I sleep much better knowing I don't have to tumble out of bed at o' dark thirty. I eat proper food and I choose to do as little or much with my day as the mood takes.
However, it is nice to remain associated via part time simulator work. But if someone offered me a flying gig, no way would I go back.

Bail Out, Eject?
 

Only YOU can make the choice.

After 35+ years in a very different profession, one much loved, the toxic overhead became too much. I bailed out years early simply because I could. Part of my thinking was that I could return within 3-4 years if I really missed it or truly needed to. Nuts! Pushing 64, I've been 'retired' since late '08, work harder that I ever have before, and would not go back at 2x the income. It worked for me and perfectly. For you, only you can decide. The only real advice that I can offer is pay attention to your feelings and QOL standards. If jumping it the right course, go for it.
Having a plan won't hurt, but if you have other skills or interests, use them. If you are seriously concerned about money, wait a few or five years, ,save like a chipmunk, cut expenses to the bone and reconsider... You sound a bit young, so you have better options than I did. Use them!
Many pilots or so committed that they cannot consider anything else. Most of the really smart ones always have a "Plan B" in their back pocket. (Loss of medical certificate, for example..) Make a "Plan B" and when able, consider again. Good luck!! If your Quality of Life (QOL) is not up to standards, make a plan to FIX IT. You do have choices...:D

There seems to be a worrying amount of guys on here saying how tired, knackered, dead-on-their-feet they are. I am not a pilot (yet) but will be starting training very shortly, and just wondered what makes people so tired?

Please don't jump down my throat but I'm struggling to see how people can be so tired they had to pull over at road services 20 mins away from home after a shift as one poster mentioned. Surely you can't be that tired? I mean let's say you flew 900 hours a year, and doubled that for ground duties ect (I don't know exactly how much that would be but I can't see it being more than that) that's still 1800 hours per year, considerably less than many other professions that involve a lot of physical work also.

I can understand that early mornings are hard work, and certainly 12 hour days are very tiring but these are by no means unique to professional flying.

Again I'm not disputing that people are very tired, and I may well be completely missing the point as to the reasons why they are so please excuse my ignorance but if anyone could explain exactly what's causing it it would be very helpful, mainly to help me make an informed choice as to whether a professional pilot career is truly what I want.

rivet squeezer……

short answer to your conundrum is No, its not the right career choice. Guess that someone is about to stump up £110k to pay for your training. Then you will take a crap job paying nothing in the hope that one day it will get better. But every day that passes and with every additional new entrant who has paid for his seat the bean counters rub their hands harder and harder while they find new ways to make life that bit more intolerable than before.

When you grow up and have a few less hormones coursing through your body you will realise that after 20 years of 4.30 starts and 21.00 return for 3 days then 2 12.00 starts with 02.00 return can be a bit tiring. And that is if you are lucky enough to get a UK post.

In short, the first few weeks will be fine. It is fun for a bit and you are sitting in a shinny new jet and will have a new iPhone. But the T and Cs are only going one way and it won't be in your favour.

You must remember that some of us, would have woken up at 1230 am for a 3 am departure. Then there are those who leave at 9 pm for a night turn to India landing at 5 am. They often then sign on at 7 or 8 that same night of the arrival for a further night flight to the sub continent. Do up to 20 days of that a month and you have an A330 Captains roster.

You will find that you will also look like you have been buttboned by the monster that raped New York.

rivet squeezer, I would implore you to change your career if you haven't started and quit if you have, but I know that it's pointless.

So all I will say is best of luck. Save money. Go hog wild for the first year and #€% all the hostesses and get an M3 but after that, save ALL the money.

Repay your debts, save enough to live off of if you decide to leave and start figuring out something to study during cruise.

I give anyone starting today 1/500 chance of retiring as a pilot.

Myself I'm still thinking about leaving and I do have some options. Not sure just yet. And just to be clear, I have one of the desirable jobs in Europe.

Aviation isn't about "getting a job" it's about getting a good job. You can fly cargo out of Nigeria for 5 bucks and fall asleep to gun fire at night but is that a career? A life? Fewer and fewer good jobs and a steady stream of pilots willing to pay to get them.

Game. Set. Match.

Don't do it.

rivet squeezer - if you have to ask the question then the answer is No.

I've spent a lifetime in aviation and I wouldn't change it for the world. There are some very negative comments on here.

Yes there are hardships but that's the nature of the job: it's not 9-5 Monday to Friday, it's often early morning starts or late night finishes, you'll miss important dates and have to cancel on friends, and then there's the cost and how you're going to pay for the training. I know it's controversial to say but half the tiredness and fatigue is caused by individuals own lifestyles.

However the rewards are great: the views for one, it's never boring, the pay and conditions are generally very good (everyone on here complains but 100k+, where else are you going to earn that as captain in possibly in your early 30's). And if you just like to fly there is nothing else like it.

Like most jobs it's what you make it.

It's not all an 'easy' ride but if you're committed I'd say go for it; you don't sound to me as if you are.

JaxofMarlow...

I clearly touched a nerve there and apologies for that but there's no need to try and patronise me with regards to my age! I may be fairly young but have been working since I left school at 16. I'm a licensed engineer now and work 2 days followed by 2 nights on shift, then usually do a couple of days overtime and have been doing this for years. Many times I have travelled to carry out AOG repairs and worked all through the night on the back of a 12 hour shift so trust me I know what tired is!

I did mention in my first post that I wasn't trying to say that it's not a tiring job, however I will say again it's not unique to aviation and there are many other jobs out there that are more tiring and pay considerably less. None of the replies to my post have really answered my question either. Nothing has suggested to me that the job of a pilot is more tiring than the one I already have. Perhaps I'm used to it now as long shifts are all I know but I still stand by my original post.

Stiglet...

Finally a positive post! Trust me I am committed, I mainly asked the question out of interest and try and perhaps make some people realise the grass isn't always greener. I agree with everything you have said in your post and that's exactly how I look at it. Maybe I will be on here in ten years time complaining about fatigue, maybe not...one thing's for sure it can't be any more fatiguing than the job I have now, but I'd bet it's a lot more enjoyable!

Don't say you weren't warned. Yep, we are all earning £100k + by the time we are 30. Laughing my tits off now.

You already have a career. Stick to it and fly for fun. Don't believe the hype selling you a place on a training course. Yes, there maybe a shortage, from the airlines point of view, of pilots who will fly for FA but how long are you going to be happy to do that ? There is massive downward pressure on pilots terms and conditions and now they have caught on to the fact that there is an endless supply of cheap labour the pressure will get worse. Only a matter of time before captains terms are attacked in the same way. You may be lucky and get the right seat from the outset and stick to it for your entire career - but if you do you will have to. Change company and you fall to the bottom again. Three redundancies in the last 9 years have taught me that. You then have to go somewhere your life style may not be compatible with - as I did - reluctantly dragging a wife and two kids to a sandpit for a few years. Back now, but £100k pa. No chance.

Tiredness and fatigue are issues - but they are not the main ones by a long way.

100k.... I wish, on my 5th company now and the best I have seen is 65k a couple of years ago, it is nearly half that now. And now I am paid in Euro I have taken a big hit with the recent rise in the Pound verse the Euro, losing about £500 a month on that gig..... If I could do something else I would but at the moment Im stuck with it but keeping my eyes wide open.

Your call really.

People talk of the "two buckets" when talking Middle east, but this is just as valid anywhere else. Fill the cash bucket enough and bail or carry the :mad: bucket as long as you can and bail.

It's simple really. Flying a career? No, not any more.

Stiglet has it right. Flying is not a job. It's not even a career. It's a vocation. If you come into it for any other reason than being unable to spend your few years here any other way, you've got it wrong.

I'm seeing too many people come into the profession for the wrong reasons. Yes, I did decide to stop flying, but that was after 32 years. And I'm still involved (part time) because it is all still so interesting. Some flying jobs pay a fortune, others are huge fun. Point is, YOU decide how you spend your life. If you don't really think flying is worth it, then stop.

Someone once said, "You can do whatever you want - provided you are prepared to make the necessary sacrifices". That applies.

This year three things happen for me, I am forty, I have clocked up 15 years UK low cost flying and I am going 50% part time.

In some ways that's a damning indictment of the sustainability of this job. In other ways it's a glorious compliment to the lifestyle options of this job.

Every profession outside of politics, media and sport has taken a big bite out of a :mad: sandwich in the last twenty years. Aviation is no different and beware of rose tinted spectacles and surveying greener grass in other fields.

Get busy living, or get busy dying.

Work abroad.
More money
Better flying
Treated better

Find the right job abroad.
Save money.
Buy property.
Retire early.

OR

Stay in comfort zone.
Pay high taxes together with high cost of living.
Save little if any money.
Rely on diminishing or non existent company pension.
Stay working until you drop.

Can I drop a hint of advice. Beware recommendations from the old hands talking about having had "a ball" or "just about to retire, no regrets, yes it was tiring but good money, go for it". That advice is now defunct. They joined in the era of different times and found themselves on the gravy train and high up the seniority/pay scales/ rostering agreements and have been shielded from the reality of finding themselves out on the street post redundancy seeing what it's like to start from scratch under today's terms, Those terms they enjoyed are just about to be overturned as they retire.

Everyone can tell you about what it was like in the past or how it is now but no one (we'd all like to know) can tell you what it will be like during your career time. A clue is its heading one way rather quickly. We're now at levels where trains drivers pull in more than a lot of pilots and have better hours and pensions, or contracts. Monarch, BA. They've all had changes the last year. Don't fool yourself thinking it will stop there. Fine, if the Job costs you nowt to get in but it doesn't.

And yes it's very fatiguing. I've done seriously long hours of manual labor in a past life and although felt tired, never knew what true fatigue was. I thought I did in an arrogant way as I had experienced hard graft but little did I know how :mad: by a train you could feel after years of airline flying, I've done short, medium and long haul and it all takes it out of you. Maybe not in the old days when you had decent rest but with min rest and shifts/ night turns/stress/family pressures it all takes its toll.

Cliff Secord

Well said, be nice if IFALPA actually conducted a study to show this and hopefully find a solution to turn it around.

More and more i meet pilots who want to quit their job for something else. Most of them are experienced people who already lived their dream and now facing the backside of this medal....and i am one of them.

I feel that the whole pilot job is an unnatural job. You always have to work day and night, facing jet lags, not having a normal social life, working at high altitudes etc. Something against mother nature ( i dont how call this). We all have our roots and are somehow always attached to this. The older we get, the more pronounced it is. I recently found a nice place to stay in my surroundings where i used to grow up as a youngster. I know the area, having my friends there, can speak my mother language.....i am feeling at home. Moving somewhere else, leaving (again) everything behind just for the sake of flying is also getting harder and harder. I was really demotivated because of this, even if the new aircraft was an A320. And i believe if you want to stay in flying business, there is no other choice. It is asking for sacrifices. I recently refused 3 jobs offers because i had to move again. People call me crazy but hey, they are not pilots. And to be honest, still i do not regret with my choice. I know already that i will quit my flying job within the 1.5 year. (Hopefully i find something else). The only thing i am afraid of is my salary. I never thought i would be saying this but i hope soon for a very stable regular life. This is not a negative comment on the pilotjob but more a realistic one.

Rivet

The differance between tiredness and fatigue is worth researching. Sure, you are working shifts and long hours now; however, when you go home to sleep it is in your own bed and more importantly, your own time zone. This is not to be underestimated. Many times I've arrived in a hotel shattered, yet unable to actually get a decent kip because of that pesky circadian rthyhm. ( again, worth a Google as this will determine your life if you go for it).
Believe me when I say I have also worked for a living before flying, but tiredness after crossing several time zones is A tiredness like no other.
Although on a positive note, I enjoy the job and wouldn't want to do Anything else. I can sleep on the plane well which makes a huge differance on long haul. The pay is very good, and I get plenty of time off at home and downroute. I do however work for BA on a legacy contract.
Good luck with whatever your choose.

Well it just goes to show what a personal choice it is. I do agree aviation and the job is now different. It is what it is and yes the conditions have changed. Do you want to look back in 10 years time and think 'if only'.

From your tag you're young, live in the UK, maybe single and have a good solid qualification which you could fall back on. Do you have access to funds that you 'might' be gambling with? By the state of your progress you do.

If you go down this route undoubtably the first few years will be tough. The new boys on the block seem to think that it was always so easy for everyone - no it certainly wasn't. Some did have an easier ride than others but it was by no means everyone, I'm now reaping the rewards of a long, hard fought career. You make of the job what you want and if it's really what you want you can't get it anywhere else. Most other jobs that give this level of satisfaction and reward are also hard to start with; anything that's worthwhile often is. Those in the job will continue to fight for better T&C and some headway is being made even if it's only giving more options.

Sometimes there's a glut of pilots, sometimes a shortage; your options will depend on which it is when you qualify.

I also wish you good luck whatever you choose.

I don't see terms improving in Europe. Why would they anyway. Interesting just reading the Monarch thread. Cadets starting on 21k part time contracts. Try servicing a debt on that.

If you find yourself stuck on the skid row of the new wave of employment practice it's easy to see why finding an alternative career path is considered. Pilots are trained to be balanced and have plan B and C. So it makes sense if the job is affecting your life and family to re consider alternatives. Being told to suck it up from people on legacy terms that will not exist for too long is irrational and lacks appreciation for the reality for some people in this career.

Hmm, sorry Cliff, but IMHO pilots were trained to think outside the box and plan accordingly. It seems to me that the current generation of magenta line P2F/P4T pilots would make the average nazi proud: "Befehl ist Befehl" (orders are orders) is the motto that has taken over from the "safety first" mentality.

When your employer, rubber-stamped by the hopelessly incompetent authorities, shouts "JUMP!" then the only things you as a pilot have to ask are; "how high, how long and what's minimum rest?"

Just like the financial services industry nearly collapsed in 2008 due to 'self-regulation,' this of course is a crash waiting to happen but the airlines and authorities don't care because they have given themselves a 'stay out of jail card' in the form of "pilot error." The only 'authority' you have left as a pilot is to accept the blame if, God forbid, it all goes horribly wrong one day.

Having suffered from a serious bout of insomnia myself, I can only say that I now fully understand how chronic sleep deprivation (read: fatigue!) can be such an effective torture method, and that this very convenient side-effect from the EASA FTL's will turn the entire pilot workforce into docile lambs.

I've tried it all; flying turbo prop commuters, low cost and now long haul. The deflationary Tsunami of ever lower T&C's and ever more lethal FTL's is continuing it's devastating path, and from a 40 year old pilot's perspective there just does not seem to be any more high ground left to escape to.

There is only one escape left: GET OUT WHILE YOU STILL CAN, and leave the industry to the dumb idiots paying for 500 hours on a 737.

I'm not saying it's perfect and I deplore the pay for a type rating situation but when you join these days you know what you're getting into. There are very few options out there to have all your training paid for; for most at best you will have to fund your initial training. If you want to jump directly into an airline you'll just have to 'suck it up' and take the hit with your finances until you gain experience; that's the way it's gone and that's the way we've let it go. I feel more sorry for those with experience who are now stuck in a rut when cadets jump them in the queue for the jets (if that's what they want).

The improving conditions I refer to relate more to options such as: P/T, fixed roster patterns, parental leave, company share schemes and pensions none of which were offered in my first airline and most of which have been gained in the last few years. Then there's the ops support we now have which is routinely taken forgranted. Money isn't always the biggest issue. At least as an FO the only way is up and the financial rewards are unquestionably very reasonable when you reach captain - whether they stay that way is anyones guess.

So for the poster who was considering leaving here are differing views and for the one considering joining a lot to mull over. No one is forced to join so why is there so much angst going on; I don't hear it so much in other professions, at least not to this extent? Compared to the rest of the population we have it good.

I can't believe the comments I am reading on here. Honestly what planet do you guys live in?

Have you had a look at the real world outside of aviation? Ever spoke to an architect, lawyer or even better a plumber or builder. Do you realize the lack of jobs we are facing?

I speak for myself, and I can promise you there is nothing else I'd be able to do on even 1/4th of the salary. From what I read on here it seems like everyone can get another job lined up quickly and live a wounderful stable life. Lucky you. For the rest of us, toughen up and get on with it until you get a nice part time if that's what you want, or you're in for a tough surprise out there. Just sayin'.

Yes, I talk to plenty of 'real world' people, and when you factor out the prestige from being a pilot then there is little left of your argument. Lack of jobs? You mean like the lack of pilot jobs that those present 500 hour P2F pilots are facing? Just try to project the downward pressure on FTL's and T&C's forward 10-20 years and think about what the world will look like. :\

You do have somewhat of a point in that more and more jobs get outsourced and that everybody has to work hard(er) for a living, but for some pilots the lack of lifestyle, social life and the cumulative effect of fatigue and jet-lag just aren't worth it anymore. Some people only live to fly and limit themselves to looking inside the box when it comes to earning money, while others take a critical look at past, present and future and think: "where is this all going?" "is this really worth it?" and "can I do something else in life?"

I find that most people who are the least critical of the aviation business are the ones that have the smallest social life and least number of activities and hobbies and are the most caught up in the rat race of buying a bigger house, a bigger car and keeping up with the neighbours.

Just sayin' but despite EU directives, almost no company offers good part-time solutions anymore. Most companies only offer part-time during the (s)lower parts of the business cycle like during the winter months, but so far I have never worked for a company that will, in writing, give me part time, unless they can cancel it within a few months. In my present company many pilots want part-time, but the company just refuses to give it.

Fact is, most companies do NOT want happy well rested part-time pilots, they just want to mob you away by working you to death so that they can replace you with a fresh and cheaper pilot.

...and with my last comment we've come full circle again, as people have had enough of the mobbing, enough of the fatigue, enough of the lack of part-time, enough of the total lack of social life and lifestyle and simply want OUT!

Good thread.
This industry is very very unforgivable.

Some interesting comments here for sure and a few seem to be genuinely trying to give advice, which certainly gives food for thought and is much appreciated.

However...

For me, becoming a professional pilot is something I can honestly say, "it's all I've ever wanted to do." It's something I feel I have to do and if I don't I'll severely regret it once I'm too old. Not because I want to walk through the terminal with my aviators on followed by a string a hosties fighting over who's going to sit on my knee in the flight deck. Or for the money for that matter (if I can make what I earn now I'd be happy). It's because I have a genuine passion for aircraft and aviation. An appreciation of the technology and engineering. An utter sense of awe being at the controls of a Tobago TB-10.

I'm not going to pay the ridiculous Oxford or CTC prices to get my licence and certainly don't believe the :mad: they spout about a pilot shortage. I'm not going to get into mortgage size debt over it or put my parents house on the line. I've set myself up to be able to fund the training myself and have a back-up career I could easily go back to if flying doesn't work out.

I'm sure many of you felt the same way I do and I'm not saying you now hate your job because you got into it for the wrong reasons. Maybe I'll feel the same as many of you guys on here in ten years time. Maybe not.

One thing's for sure. If I do I certainly won't continue as life's too short to hate your career that much and it certainly can't be healthy. One thing I've learnt during my fairly short career though is that the ones who moan the loudest have been there the longest and will never move on, so it can't be that bad :}

...........and as automation continues its inevitable path.

RHS.....internship only or minimal pay.

LHS T's & C's similar to train driver at best.

Surely that's obvious ?

Will two people be required in on the flight deck in 20 years ?

I see, so BCal, Dan Air, Laker, Air Europe, Air Wales, to name just five, never happened then? Youthful arrogance once more to the fore, I fear. :rolleyes:

I jacked it in as soon as my mortgage was paid off and although at first I missed airline flying soon decided that I would do CPL/IR/MEP training but after about six years even that became tedious.


Now running a property rental business life consists of dog walking in the morning and business stuff in the afternoon and although not rich we get by.


Would I recommend flying as a career - emphatically NO. It isn't worth getting into debt plus considering the FTL scheme is changing and T,s and C,s getting worse makes for an unhappy life and more importantly an unhappy wife.


What would I do now - get a PPL and group share then fly when and where I want on my terms.

Plainly I'm in the minority on this forum in enjoying my career and loving flying; even after all these years it is obviously a true vocation for me and yes I've been lucky. I can understand you don't want to look back in years to come with any regrets at not having tried when it's something you've always wanted to do.

I have one last thought for you, it's not meant as a suggestion but just something for you to consider if you are determined to become a commercial pilot. There are lots of different types of flying jobs out there, airline flying being but one. It sounds as if you are well prepared and have done your research well and I commend your attitude.

The observation is this: you have discounted going to Oxford or CTC for obvious reasons however, regretably, it is becoming very difficult to take the improves route into the major airlines as most of the larger airlines predominantly take their new pilots from these schools.

john smith - I don't think he's been nieve; I think he's thought this through and done his research. He's done what so many on this forum have recommended before and got himself a good qualification/trade that he can fall back on if things don't turn out. These days people do change careers more than they did in the past so why should this be any more difficult. I would suggest the vast majority of the working population hate their job and in fact proportionally less in aviation. His desire to be a pilot appears to be for all the right reasons so why should he want to stop or hate the job as you suggest so many of us do? He's had a job in aviation so he understands the environment and the work ethic involved.