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Ryanair in Copenhagen ... or not
Ryanair has presented what it calls its final word to the Danish cabin attendant and pilot unions: They have point blank refused to even entertain the idea of a collective agreement.
The unions have replied by announcing a conflict, which means all unionized cabin attendants and pilots in Denmark will be banned from taking up employment. It gets worse, much worse, for Ryanair though. All the major unions of CPH airport have pledged to back up the cabin attendant and pilot unions, and since every single handling, fueling and catering company in CPH is fully unionized, that means their aircraft might land and taxi to gate, but no ground handling at all will take place. This is assuming Ryanair will be able to find a handling agent at all; so far none of them are willing to meet the price point demanded by Ryanair. On the contrary, they have been advised what the prices are, take it or leave it. Reason being is rather simple: Their staff are unionized, and they are unable to turn a profit at the price RYR is offering due to the cost of labour. A ramp agents costs around USD 30/hour in CPH, inclusive of pension and social charges. Unfortunately for MoL, CPH is home to some of the best organized, and best financially padded, unions in Europe. The word from them is simple: They sign a collective agreement with their cabin attendants and pilots based in CPH, or they bugger off. As the signing of a collective agreement in CPH will have widespread ramifications for their entire European operation, it is highly unlikely Ryanair will succumb to the pressure. Ryanair plan to base 1 aircraft in CPH as of March, increasing to 4 aircraft during the course of 2015, all crewed with staff based in Denmark. |
Interesting, but can't see the Ryans being beaten, they have a bit of a history with union busting. The flight will be originated from other bases if militant activity gets too bad. Handlers will always find cheap immigrant labour to move the bags and rear steps....
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Having seen first hand the determination & "don't give a :mad: attitude of the ramp staff in CPH, I think FR may have finally met its match.
Sweating it out along with 186 others on a baking hot day whilst being told that if you don't shut down the APU you will have no baggage handling ( because the handlers don't want to wear the ear protection provided by their employer ) is both frustrating & strangely comforting at the same time. Vikings 1 Ryanair 0 would be my bet on the score. :ok: |
Just to add a bit of Danish levity:
I arrived in BLL one night and the loaders refused to work until I shut the APU down (I wanted to stay warm during a 20 minute turnaround). "Why" said I? "It makes too much noise and it says so in our rules" So, I shut the APU down and switched on the Brake Fans (which made more noise than the APU). That blew the whole union plan apart because there was nothing in their bits and pieces that mentioned Brake Fans and I pointed out that this was a matter of flight safety. I think I won the moral high ground that night. |
Handlers will always find cheap immigrant labour to move the bags and rear steps.... I think I won the moral high ground that night. |
I've no interest in leaping to thr defence of FR, however "it's too noisy and it's in our rules" is the most frustratingly disgraceful comment to be made by a person who works on the ramp of a commercial airport. What's next, tow aircraft to a point beyond earshot in order for them to start engines a depart? Have stealth arrivals onto stand? Make sure that baggage, fuel and catering trucks are noise monitored when under their own power? Wear ear defenders and do the job. Otherwise work elsewhere.
I can respect an airport having environmental constraints on the use of APUs, but ensure a GPU and the air conditioning cart is available on arrival. Simply telling me 'your' APU is too noisy and we have rules for ground staff' is pathetic. It's the very same people who fail to bring you a ground cart during an entire turnaround despite it being in the handling agent's contract that they must provide one. If they were sitting inside my aluminium tube experiencing soaring or indeed plummeting temperatures, what would be their primary concern at that stage? |
I've no interest in leaping to thr defence of FR, however "it's too noisy and it's in our rules" is the most frustratingly disgraceful comment to be made by a person who works on the ramp of a commercial airport. |
If is, however, their ears which will be suffering in the end My ears suffer with APUs too, if you don't like the noise machines make don't work with them?? |
It is Summer, it is hot (yep even in CPH ) & they don't want pesky ear defenders messing up their carefully coiffured Mullet. . . . it is very "Britain in the 70's" turn that off or we will stop working.
I turned it on 10 min before STD & was met with a torrent of abuse "But we won't be ready in 10min switch it off again". . . my reply that we could solve this particular dilemma by them working faster was probably not the highpoint of my feeble attempts at diplomacy. They are such sensitive souls the baggage guys in CPH, I am sure that they would be much more suited to working in a library, and am equally sure that they cannot be found on any Saturday night being deafened in some dive by music twice as loud as any APU, lubricated by one two many Carlsbergs. The only bright side is that they are a formidable foe for a company that has become used to walking over everyone . . . . not this time methinks. |
I fly to CPH a lot, I am from there and in the past I was a ground handler there as well.
So with this background, I think I am allowed to voice my opinion about baggage handlers in CPH these days: They are little :mad: with too big ego's for what they are worth!!! I agree with the poster above "if you don't like noise, don't work at an airport handling airplanes" :ugh: They are very frustrating people, and I had many rows with them over the years. I too turn on the brake fans when they become too high on their horses, in the hope they might some day turn to use common sense :yuk: However, I do support them in the fight against RYR, as this will affect their working conditions in the wrong direction as well if RYR are allowed to do their "business as usual". |
Ryanair åbner rute fra CPH til Stockholm
På pressemødet blev Aviator i øvrigt præsenteret som Ryanairs kommende handlingagent i Københavns Lufthavn. Which roughly translates to During the press conference Aviator was presented as the Ryanairs handling agent at CPH. |
I see that FR is harping on along their usual lines: "FR planes are Irish territory no matter where they are." All the while, our favourite Kjos claims that Norwegian planes in Spain fly under Spanish rules, even though they're registered in Norway. Funny how absolutely nobody, in the media or otherwise, picks up on this rather interesting tidbit... Two equally big destroyers of the airline industry with the same modus operandi justifying their ways of working around labour laws with two completely opposite explanations. One of them has got to be wrong, yet the legislators turn the other cheek to both.
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They are little :mad: with too big ego's for what they are worth!!! |
Guys, remember that few companies know this business as well as RYR does.
Personally, I'm sure of that they wouldn't wake the bear up, unless they were confident that they would be able to kill it, and have the furtrader pay them money for having the honour of selling the fur for them. |
FR damage control: If you won't join them- beat them!
Warning: Post from someone only type rated Citroën C3 !
May be moved or deleted as mods see fit! Yesterday FR commercial director David O’Brien and director of personnel Eddie Wilson held a press conference in connection with the launch of their CPH base. One B738 will initially be based in CPH from Mar 26th, starting services to Stockholm NYO. However IMO it looked more like an attempt to damage control the threats from a number of unions! David O’Brien confirmed that FR would not negotiate with Danish Unions. ‘We’re an Irish company flying Irish (registered) aircraft, and the Danish legislation has nothing to do with us. ..It is plain stupid if the handling people don’t drop their ideological crusade and welcome new jobs!” Etcetera! Eddie Wilson said that 10 pilots, all Danish have been recruited internally for the CPH base. They were in the process of recruiting 20 c/a, also internally.He told that a FO was paid approx. .DKK 40.000 pr. month and a captain DKK 62000, whereas a junior stewardess was paid approx.. 15500 DKK per month and a senior stewardess . 22.000 ( no idea whether amounts mentioned are basic or with ‘extras’ ). ROE: DKK 10 to the Pound! I won’t rule out that the ‘cockpit’ salary could impress some egalitarian minded Danes, but the pittance paid to the ‘cabin’ will not! Which is probably why mr. Wilson added that because of the cost of living in CPH FR was willing to increase the c/a pay! FYI: FR is quite a household name in BLL (Western Denmark), because they are the only option to a number of destinations, including LON.Maybe it’ll take more to please the Copenhagen-crowd, who are familiar with locos such as a.o. DY, U2, AB and have something to compare with! From a SLF point of view I’ll stick to the red nosed aircraft of my Northern neighbours if they go where I’m going! Servicewise they’re no different from SK! Maybe they’re looking for loopholes too, but I suppose that’s inevitable in this LoCo time and age. Things were certainly different during my time in the industry! |
I see that FR is harping on along their usual lines: "FR planes are Irish territory no matter where they are."
Is that not the case only when the doors are closed? Thus, during turn-round, doors open steps on the ground, they are subject to local laws. That was always my impression. |
Is that not the case only when the doors are closed? Thus, during turn-round, doors open steps on the ground, they are subject to local laws. That was always my impression.
I think even Ryanair have had to realize that now. New Ryanair contracts in European base has them paying the local social insurance. Meanwhile, the basic salary's been reduced insultingly low (to compensate). |
During the press conference Aviator was presented as the Ryanairs handling agent at CPH. Why Aviator sprung for Ryanair is pretty simple: They will lose their biggest customer (Norwegian) on the 1st of April, representing around 50% of their revenue, to Menzies Aviation. But, just to be clear, even if RYR has signed a ground handling agreement, the handling staff still won't touch a RYR aircraft unless they sign a collective agreement for their cockpit and cabin staff. Which they've said very clearly that they won't. |
But, just to be clear, even if RYR has signed a ground handling agreement, the handling staff still won't touch a RYR aircraft unless they sign a collective agreement for their cockpit and cabin staff. Which they've said very clearly that they won't.
This suggests that someone somewhere has a face to lose. Whose will it be? Who wants to keep it the more and who has more to lose? Could the worm be about to turn? How many episodes will this series have? |
Originally Posted by RAT 5
Is that not the case only when the doors are closed? Thus, during turn-round, doors open steps on the ground, they are subject to local laws. That was always my impression.
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Just to add a bit of Danish levity: I arrived in BLL one night and the loaders refused to work until I shut the APU down (I wanted to stay warm during a 20 minute turnaround). "Why" said I? "It makes too much noise and it says so in our rules" So, I shut the APU down and switched on the Brake Fans (which made more noise than the APU). That blew the whole union plan apart because there was nothing in their bits and pieces that mentioned Brake Fans and I pointed out that this was a matter of flight safety. I think I won the moral high ground that night. |
The losers here are both the airlines that have to pay more than they should for ground services and passengers, again having to pay more. No wonder there have been many airline failures with a principle base at Copenhagen!
I am all for Trade Unionism, but the world has changed and the successful unions move with the times. |
Yeah, boo hoo, the tickets may end up costing £30 instead of £20. Oh, the humanity!
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"Flight Personnel Union" (FPU) serves strike notice
English text - "Flight Personnel Union" (FPU) serves strike notice - 29 JAN:
FPU and Serviceforbundet issues Ryanair with a strike notice Danish text - Union takes right to negotiate on base to Labour Court - 03 FEB: LO - Konfliktvarsel mod Ryanair Translation by Google (+ a little help) LO is the Danish Central Labor Organization FPU is sub-org of Serviceforbundet Notice of conflict to Ryanair LO has today submitted a written complaint to the Labour Court to pre-approve any future conflict against the Irish discount airline Ryanair. The case is initiated while Serviceforbundet has announced conflict against Ryanair. - Ryanair claims that they are not covered by Danish legislation. The LO disagree because they have bases in Denmark. Ryanair has also said that they will meet any conflict with legal action. Therefore, we now ask the Labour Court in advance to validate the conflict warning of Serviceforbundet as legal, says LO's lawyer on the case, Peter Nisbeth. With declaratory relief is the LO's desire to resolve the matter as quickly as possible and preferably before 26 March 2015 when Ryanair starts a base in Copenhagen. Serviceforbundet serves strike notice. The letter from the LO to the Labour Court is handed while Serviceforbundet warns of conflict against Ryanair because Ryanair firmly refused to enter into negotiations for an agreement with Serviceforbundet, via Flight Personnel Union (FPU) who organizes pilots and cabin crew. Ryanair has announced that the airline will start flights from Copenhagen Airport, March 26. - The very best would be to meet with Ryanair in order to enter into an agreement. Ryanair unfortunately categorically rejected this and therefore Serviceforbundet - fully in line with the Danish labor market model - serve notice of conflict, says Thilde Waast, chairman of the FPU. If Ryanair continues to refuse to enter into negotiations for a collective agreement, the main conflict may later be backed by a sympathy conflict from members of the LO unions. This means that members of an LO Federation do not perform tasks arising from or destined for the conflict-affected employer. It may mean that Ryanair cannot get luggage handling or refuel. The extent of sympathy will be coordinated between the federations. Fact Sheet on Ryanair - The Danish Model in practice Ryanair has announced that they establish a base in Kastrup Airport starting on 26. March 2015. Flight Personnel Union, which is part of the Serviceforbundet has agreements with other airlines based in Denmark. Serviceforbundet also wants an agreement with Ryanair. An agreement to ensure proper conditions for pilots and flight attendants on Ryanair bases in Denmark. Under EU rules on airtraffic, every crew member shall be assigned a home base. Here it starts and ends duty. The laws of the country where the home base is located are applicable to crew members. It is established, inter alia, by a Norwegian judgment on Ryanair (Norway follows the EU rules) and a Danish judgment on Sterling's bankruptcy. If you base in Copenhagen, it is therefore Danish law applicable. Tax is paid to Denmark. And Serviceforbundet has also signed agreements for other companies based in Denmark Ryanair has flatly rejected the union's desire for a collective agreement Serviceforbundet has announced a major conflict against Ryanair, from the company base starts up on March 26. The purpose of the Danish rules on conflict of notice is to establish a contractual arrangement and preferably before a conflict is started. Technically a main conflict is comprised of the strike and a blockade (which is not a physical barrier). This means that the members of Serviceforbundet may not accept employment in Ryanair, and those who are already employed go on strike. The blockade does not require any notice when Ryanair has refused to negotiate. The strike, in turn, requires notice equivalent to the members notice. If that's not enough to get the employer to the negotiating table, the main conflict may later be backed by a sympathy conflict from members of the LO unions. This means that members of a federation LO may not perform tasks arising from or destined for the conflict-affected employer. The extent of a sympathy conflict will be coordinated between the federations. Notice of sympathy strikes are served to the employer-associations, which have member companies that may have business with the employer. In Ryanair's case, it might be the act of luggage handling, check-in, or fuel. 2 notices of sympathy conflicts are served with 7 days apart - then the sympathy conflict to take effect. Finally, a sympathy conflict means that employees who are LO-members in Ryanair can be called out in sympathy strike Ryanair at a press conference stated that they will meet any blockade and conflict with legal action. Therefore, LO brought before the Industrial Court the claim that Ryanair must recognize that the notice of conflict is legal. The Labour Court in Denmark has the opportunity to handle cases of conflict legality urgently. The LO wish that the matter will be settled before March, 26, 2015, where the Ryanair base in Kastrup starts up. |
APU Noise & CPH
CPH was the first airport i ever flew to that had strict ground noise rules and what a difference it made doing the walk around you could hear birds signing.
There is simply no justification for running an APU on turn around provided stable ground power (mains ideally) is available, if your down in Spain and it super warm then conditioned ground air should be available falling that, yes run the APU for passenger/crew convenience if your airline permits, some don't !! i gather? Ditto if it super cold, ground handlers have to work directly under the APU's and yes they have ear defenders, but they can be a safety risk in cutting off a very important sense i.e. hearing things. The worst ramp noise i can ever recall was in LBA we were on the airbridge and at one side was a bmi Embraer, the APU was noisier than the engines and on the other side a couple of stands away was a BRAL J31/41 powering back of stand that sounded like a thousand chain saws, after that i alway picked the sector that kept me in cockpit at LBA, the ramp guys there must be deaf by now |
Just to add a bit of levity:
I am absolutely not surprised but a lot of you tree-huggers out there have missed my main point. Where I mentioned that the fact that we did a 20 minute turn round seems to have gone through one ear and out of the other. Even in those days, APUs were allowed at even the most restricted airfields, for 5 minutes after blocks in and then 10 minutes before blocks out. (Except in exceptional circumstances). Ergo; on a 20 minute turnaround, we are actually only talking about a 5 minute gap in between the two parameters. I am amazed that the loaders even noticed. I certainly didn't because I was a bit busy and forgot to start my stopwatch. |
I spent three years working in diesel and steamship engine rooms where, in order to communicate with the fireman or other engineer, our heads had to be almost touching (Hold the sailor jokes). Turbo Diesel - nuff sed; steam turbine roar from the main gearbox and buzz like packs from the turbo feed pump.
We were not issued with ear defenders. You won't be surprised that I'm not greatly exercised by the loaders with ear defenders having to put up with an APU running for five minutes. |
There is something quite uplifting in the fact that you two are no longer relevant.
Now, how about getting back to the topic of the thread instead of reminiscing about your past reenactments of upstairs/downstairs. |
It is such a shame so many of us are so bloody rude. Must be part of the training!
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Lack of . . . . . training/class/education :*
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KBPsen wrote:
There is something quite uplifting in the fact that you two are no longer relevant. |
When that day comes ground crews are going to miss me as I don't play silly games for the sake of my ego.
I'll miss them too as they are willing to fight on our side despite us never reciprocating. In many ways a loader has a lot more integrity than those who feel they are above them. |
JaxofMarlow,
It is such a shame so many of us are so bloody rude. Must be part of the training! Basil of Marlow - perhaps we pass walking our dogs ;) |
Basil - could be. My long departed old man was ex military/BEA(Viscount/Vanguard/Trident).
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Interesting set of reactions here, given the implications.
Some have turned this into a ramp worker bashfest, ignoring the fact it will up to those ramp workers to force Ryanair to sign a collective agreement for its flying crews based in CPH. If Ryanair chooses not to, they will not be handled in CPH. If they chose to sign, that will open the floodgates for everyone currently employed by Ryanair, or any other airline on similar terms. In so many words, pilots and cabin crew have proved unable or unwilling to force collective bargaining on Ryanair, and the battleground will instead be on the ramp, by ramp workers, in CPH. Yet all some of you have done, is taking the opportunity to have a go at these guys, for advising you to follow the rules on running an APU FFS! The worst enemy of a pilot is not, it would seem, a Michael O'Leary type, but rather pilots themselves. You should be ashamed of yourself. |
Yep. Not much solidarity to be seen around these parts nowadays. RYR guys should be happy that someone is willing to stand up for them.
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But will they stand up to Ryanair?
Their company just lost their biggest contract, not serving Ryanair might well mean bankruptcy for their company. I applaud them in their action, but fear resolve might fail in the face of unemployment while defending someone else's right to a collective agreement. Will the CPH based Ryanair crew join their strike? |
JaxofMarlow, I was Viscount but Glasgow based.
Never had any complaints about the APU ;) |
Re the OP:
The word from them is simple: They sign a collective agreement with their cabin attendants and pilots based in CPH, or they bugger off. |
And no base seems to be Ryanairs solution.
On a press conference today (12 FEB 2015) Edward Wilson, Director of Personnel and In-flight, announced that Ryanair will drop the CPH base but nevertheless open 8 routes to CPH beginning March 18, a week earlier than initially announced. Also today Danish newspaper AVISEN.DK wrote that Ryanair surprisingly had accepted a meeting with the union, FPU, though not to negotiate an agreement. http://www.flyvebranchen.dk/nyheder/...ease-from-fpu/ |
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