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Originally Posted by hunterboy
(Post 10487232)
Having said that, I understand that on not a few occasions, fatigued pilots were subsequently questioned why they had logged onto crewlink and emaestro in the run up to calling in fatigued. That to me shows a complete unawareness of the issue. If I was to publish the DFCM’s name I’d probably get banned, but would have several thousand pilots nodding in recognition. hmmmm... When I went fatigued it was very easy and dealt with by one of our fantastic DFCMs (most of them are bloody good in my experience). I apologised and felt (wrongly I guess) as though I'd let the company down or dropped them in it some how to cover my roster. I was very impressed at the response I received and reassured that this was a daily occurrence and an extremely regular conversation. What wasn't so clever was the DFCM (no names mentioned) who picked it up a day or so later and explained how I'm fine now I've had 24 hours at home and would likely be ready for work as they're very short of FO's. When I said no I was subtly interrogated on my drives to work, rest management / arrangements between day trips and home life situation. It was disappointing to say the least when I was then asked at the end of the call to put it all in writing via email. Gave them both barrels on my email but smelt a rat.....so when I was back in I had a look in the system audit trail to find that my fatigue had been re classified. Never got to the bottom of what to but I insisted it was changed back. The trail went cold but suspect it was re categorised. Shame really, it's just masking the problems. Overall, a very very good experience initially but the follow up and company audit trail wasn't good at all. |
Originally Posted by VinRouge
(Post 10486831)
Is it not a problem partially of the workforces making though? If you have huge constraints placed on rostering by a seniority based system that has junior guys picking up multiple low credit trips, because those above them are picking out the highly credit dense stuff, leaving the scraps at the bottom?
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Originally Posted by 2 Whites 2 Reds
(Post 10487268)
hmmmm...
When I went fatigued it was very easy and dealt with by one of our fantastic DFCMs (most of them are bloody good in my experience). I apologised and felt (wrongly I guess) as though I'd let the company down or dropped them in it some how to cover my roster. I was very impressed at the response I received and reassured that this was a daily occurrence and an extremely regular conversation. What wasn't so clever was the DFCM (no names mentioned) who picked it up a day or so later and explained how I'm fine now I've had 24 hours at home and would likely be ready for work as they're very short of FO's. When I said no I was subtly interrogated on my drives to work, rest management / arrangements between day trips and home life situation. It was disappointing to say the least when I was then asked at the end of the call to put it all in writing via email. Gave them both barrels on my email but smelt a rat.....so when I was back in I had a look in the system audit trail to find that my fatigue had been re classified. Never got to the bottom of what to but I insisted it was changed back. The trail went cold but suspect it was re categorised. Shame really, it's just masking the problems. Overall, a very very good experience initially but the follow up and company audit trail wasn't good at all. One of the two UK AOC's with approved FRMS now get a sleep scientist (who has done work for AOC's and BALPA to maintain a good balance) to give "science of sleep" training to all their Crew, Crewing staff etc. It might help if BA put some of their Pilot Managers in touch? |
Originally Posted by wiggy
(Post 10486049)
As Toolong says it’s definitely “Fake News”, though in various forms it has been circulating for a few days. Don’t know why how or why it started and FWIW yours is the first version where it’s been tagged as being associated with a specific fleet. |
Originally Posted by red9
(Post 10487830)
For resignations read resignations in order to take early retirement if you wish. Not to move to another company. Just people disillusioned with JSS / Pensions / Morale etc
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Originally Posted by Jumbo2
(Post 10487898)
Don't believe all the rumours, the retirees are at the moment pretty much only 65 year olds pilots, a few from within the bubble who moved to an airline up North and around 20 junior pilots who joined KLM and Aer Lingus.
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Originally Posted by Jumbo2
(Post 10487898)
Don't believe all the rumours, the retirees are at the moment pretty much only 65 year olds pilots, a few from within the bubble who moved to an airline up North and around 20 junior pilots who joined KLM and Aer Lingus.
Someone will disagree with me, but hey ho, before I’m called massively negative, right now I quite like it, the pay cheque is regular and stable, my roster doesn’t change and I have decent lifestyle control, would I recommend you join the bottom of any fleet on JSS, unless you’re 24 and single, or a realist who knows the score and is willing to put years in before you see fruits? Absolutely not. Even then, ask me in another five years time, if current trajectories of our T&Cs being assaulted continues, I probably wouldn’t recommend it full stop. Very very sad to have that as my honest opinion right now. |
Originally Posted by RHS
(Post 10488158)
Not true, I personally know of 3 in the Jet 2 hold pool (DEPs last 5 years mix of LHS/RHS), one to a private jet operator, one in the TUI hold pool and one in the Easy hold pool for DEC. Then there’s the two who left in January to Virgin off the 787, plus another who’s gone back to Ryanair. BA is 100% now a “if you’re from the SE and it suits your lifestyle”. Someone will disagree with me, but hey ho, before I’m called massively negative, right now I quite like it, the pay cheque is regular and stable, my roster doesn’t change and I have decent lifestyle control, would I recommend you join the bottom of any fleet on JSS, unless you’re 24 and single, or a realist who knows the score and is willing to put years in before you see fruits? Absolutely not. Even then, ask me in another five years time, if current trajectories of our T&Cs being assaulted continues, I probably wouldn’t recommend it full stop. Very very sad to have that as my honest opinion right now. My question being will the introduction if this system / general assault in Ts+Cs result in more career SFOs who refuse to be junior again? |
The insanity of seniority!
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The solution to this is to stay single! |
How do the pilots in US and other airlines that use seniority rostering systems manage to recruit pilots? |
Originally Posted by hunterboy
(Post 10488301)
How do the pilots in US and other airlines that use seniority rostering systems manage to recruit pilots? I don’t think BA has trouble getting people through the door mind you. The pass rate in their assessments can only be about 20% max maybe from start to finish... |
Hi Guys and Gals
If anyone could assist in providing some info I'd be most grateful. I'm a South African with British Passport (have lived in UK before), busy with my EASA ATPL (yes, I know the ins and outs with Brexit). Living in SA I really don't know a hell of a lot about BA in terms of what fleet you get put on, LH or SH, career progression and roster patterns, as well as the ability to commute and even what starting pay is, Unfortunately I don't know anyone at BA so figured this is best place to ask. Not quite sure what direction SA is going at the moment so thought it best to have a plan B in case things really go to the dogs! (seems like they are) Thank you! |
I understand there’s a certain amount of “doing your time” / earning your command etc but I struggle to see how one would enjoy the early years of their command having their well established home life totally ruined. Or am I missing something? Are the command lines somehow better? Edit: obviously I’m talking about the situation where you join RHS long haul, and wait the full time to swap to LHS. I suppose swapping to the 320 would improve things a bit with all the junior commands recently. |
Originally Posted by Busdriver01
(Post 10488171)
My query here is that even for a 24 year old with no real commitments (other than the fact most of their friends will likely work normal mon-fri jobs, which makes socialising with them a nightmare), is JSS in 17 years time (or whatever roster system is in place) going to be very desirable as a new captain? Ie you spend 5-10 years doing the rubbish lines because you’re junior, the enjoy the next half a decade at the top of the FO list for your fleet, picking and choosing the trips you want and not working weekends. You’re ready to take your command, age roughly 40 (which is when you more than likely will have commitments) and then just like that, you’re the most junior again. It takes until you’re 50 to regain any sort of relative seniority, all the while family are left for another weekend without you. My question being will the introduction if this system / general assault in Ts+Cs result in more career SFOs who refuse to be junior again? JSS has changed things in ways I don’t think as yet have been quite understood. Someone else points out US majors, but it’s a level playing field in that they are all seniority driven, they generally work less (certainly not 6x LH trips a month) which negates some of the negatives of juniority as at least you have a fair amount of time at home, and are paid a lot more. In the UK that certainly isn’t the case. Right now in BA it’s the perfect storm. We have a seniority driven system unlike any other carrier, working to the absolute limits of both industrial and legal rules, which makes the lifestyle pretty tough even for the most senior, combine that with juniority and it’s a nightmare. All the while actually not being paid anywhere near what other even European legacy carriers earn never mind Easy/Ryr/TUI/Jet2 all paying their SH skippers more than the majority of ours. |
I don’t know if this information is of any use but purely as a point of interest, in the last seven years, recruitment (and the bmi takeover) has been such that just over one third of BA pilots today have been in the company for seven years or less. If you’d joined straight after the takeover, this is where you could be today in approximate percentage terms from the top of each list: Gatwick Airbus: Captain 65%, FO <5% Heathrow Airbus: Captain 95%, FO 10-15% 747 FO 50-55% 777 FO 65-70% 787 FO 60-65% A380 FO 80-85% As the A350 is a new, and growing, fleet no meaningful data will be available for quite some time. This information is a statistical snapshot and should not be taken to mean that if you join now, this is what you can achieve in seven years. |
Originally Posted by RHS
(Post 10488496)
Certainly career SFO is what I’m thinking of doing. I have the advantage that I was able to join young from elsewhere. But yes, realistically I’ll still be 40 odd by the time I’m senior enough for any sort of lifestyle in the LHS. JSS has changed things in ways I don’t think as yet have been quite understood. Someone else points out US majors, but it’s a level playing field in that they are all seniority driven, they generally work less (certainly not 6x LH trips a month) which negates some of the negatives of juniority as at least you have a fair amount of time at home, and are paid a lot more. In the UK that certainly isn’t the case. Right now in BA it’s the perfect storm. We have a seniority driven system unlike any other carrier, working to the absolute limits of both industrial and legal rules, which makes the lifestyle pretty tough even for the most senior, combine that with juniority and it’s a nightmare. All the while actually not being paid anywhere near what other even European legacy carriers earn never mind Easy/Ryr/TUI/Jet2 all paying their SH skippers more than the majority of ours. I fly for a British loco, A320, which has reasonable financial security so long term will likely survive. I’m 23 and have an ATPL. Command at my current job could be as early as 2.5/3 years from now - 26 years old. If that happens I’ll be earning £140k. On one hand I think that opportunity is too good to miss - get all of my debt paid off, buy a house and be mortgage free relatively early in in life. Then the opportunity to go part time is readily available, just in time for the midlife crisis. On the other hand I think maybe I shouldn’t get suckered in by the golden handcuffs - I’m young and single and should probably go and try long haul (if I can get in of course). What are peoples thoughts? Accept that for the next 10 years I’d be living a junior long haul life, then be senior, then get command and be junior again, and not earn as much in the process, (also who knows what long haul lifestyle will actually be like in 15 years time - think min rest down route everywhere...) or take the golden handcuffs, earn far more for the next 18 years (I’ve done the numbers, 18 years is the minimum for BA to overtake where I am atm) and then go part time and enjoy life with my family, seeing the world in my own time with the people I want to? |
You’re planning waaay to far ahead. One thing is for sure, if I was to do the exact same thing for the next 20/30 years I would not be a happy captain to fly with! |
Originally Posted by bringbackthe80s
(Post 10488949)
You’re planning waaay to far ahead. One thing is for sure, if I was to do the exact same thing for the next 20/30 years I would not be a happy captain to fly with! |
Stay at EZY if they offer you SH. Its not worth 'getting on the seniority list'. Im 80ish percent on the 777 list but doesn't mean anything for at least another 4 years. Thats assuming I get LH when my freeze up- which there is no guarantee of- especially given number of DEP LH recently. Like you say - what will LH look like in 6/7/8 years when you get there. If the hotels they are forcing on us are any indication, its not very nice.
The lifestyle is better at EZY, I had more days off, enjoyed it more and do wish I had stayed. I made the decision to accept SH, Ive learnt to live with it and will stay put unless I can find a better option. Call their bluff, they realise nobody wants SH, so are trying to offer to anyone they can to get bums on seats. We are desperately short already and it's only June. Don't come here for SH, you will regret it. BA are years behind on what is acceptable rostering- single days off, six day blocks e.t.c and you'll be kicking yourself for not waiting maybe another year or two (if it came to having to re-apply) for LH. Get a command, enjoy the cash. If LH comes your way, go for it. Friends that have gotten DEP LH love it. Don't give up orange life for BA short haul. Not worth it. (IMHO) |
You need to be about a third of the way up the list on any fleet to start having reasonable control (i.e. days off or trips of choice, not both).
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Originally Posted by hunterboy
(Post 10488301)
How do the pilots in US and other airlines that use seniority rostering systems manage to recruit pilots? Depending on a number of factors (seniority being paramount among them), you can end the month with no pay credit, or up to triple your monthly guarantee. Even within a fleet, there's significant variation in the pay and time off that each pilot gets, which will depend on his/her goals for the month. |
Originally Posted by MikeAlpha320
(Post 10488976)
Stay at EZY if they offer you SH. Its not worth 'getting on the seniority list'. Im 80ish percent on the 777 list but doesn't mean anything for at least another 4 years. Thats assuming I get LH when my freeze up- which there is no guarantee of- especially given number of DEP LH recently. Like you say - what will LH look like in 6/7/8 years when you get there. If the hotels they are forcing on us are any indication, its not very nice.
The lifestyle is better at EZY, I had more days off, enjoyed it more and do wish I had stayed. I made the decision to accept SH, Ive learnt to live with it and will stay put unless I can find a better option. Call their bluff, they realise nobody wants SH, so are trying to offer to anyone they can to get bums on seats. We are desperately short already and it's only June. Don't come here for SH, you will regret it. BA are years behind on what is acceptable rostering- single days off, six day blocks e.t.c and you'll be kicking yourself for not waiting maybe another year or two (if it came to having to re-apply) for LH. Get a command, enjoy the cash. If LH comes your way, go for it. Friends that have gotten DEP LH love it. Don't give up orange life for BA short haul. Not worth it. (IMHO) For me personally the good thing about BA is that there is no fixed roster pattern and you can do with your roster what you prefer. I like to work long blocks with little days off in between so in return I get longer blocks off as well. Saying BA is lightyears behind with rostering is a bit like the discussion on Yammer where a FO had a massive go at crew food and particularly the cold breakfast on SH which he deemed an inappropriate breakfast because HE didn't like it. |
Yes, the general consensus does seem to be that if I were to be offered SH, to say no and stay where I am. If I were to be offered LH, to probably take it and go in with my eyes wide open. |
Originally Posted by Heisenb3rg
(Post 10489164)
Yes, the general consensus does seem to be that if I were to be offered SH, to say no and stay where I am. If I were to be offered LH, to probably take it and go in with my eyes wide open. |
Bid hasn't even closed yet- why don't we look at what people have actually bid for when its published? We all say/do different things.
Those you mention finishing their freezes now joined at the start of a huge recruitment drive, with new numbers they must be sitting around 3300-3500. We are now up to around 4300 on the MSL. Are you telling me you think there will be a similar amount of movement in the next 5 years? When BA have made cost cutting an absolute priority, why would they pay for another course? Just because your freeze is up doesn't entitle you to a course. With all the LH DEP where is the capacity for moving from airbus to long haul going to come from? It is not that I 'don't like' BA's rostering. Why is it that Norweigan/Ryanair both work 5/4 , EZY work 5/4/5/3 and have significant protections on random roster? Yet I can, and do, 6 days on 1 day off. My roster pattern for June is 4/2/5/2/6/1/6. Please tell me where the long block off is in there? I appreciate the ability to bunch work together, but we shouldn't be rostered these crazy patterns. It is not safe. IF you want to bunch your work together and have more time off elsewhere, great. But it should be our choice. Joining now you will not see the movement of 'all these pilots' you know that enjoy SH so much they want to stay. Sitting top 20% on a list after 4 years is unheard of, and under JSS, you pick and choose your work. That wont be the case for anyone joining now. If you enjoy spending your weekends sat in pret in T5 waiting for aeroplanes by all means accept a short haul offer. If you have a life outside of work, think very carefully before you give up what you have. Grass greener? :ok: |
Originally Posted by MikeAlpha320
(Post 10489191)
My roster pattern for June is 4/2/5/2/6/1/6. Please tell me where the long block off is in there?
You really have to learn how to bid under JSS if you are a few years (2+) in and that is what you get. Your view and my view differ pretty much 180 degrees on seniority and joining on SH. As I said lots of times before, joining SH at least you climb the seniority ladder while joining on LH you will not climb and could even go back on the seniority ladder for at least 5 years. Having worked at non seniority airlines before, seeing how seniority works at BA it keeps things fair and very transparent. It also has the added benefit that we don’t have direct entry captains and if people join as LH FO by the time the more senior SH pilots joins the fleet they will enjoy more roster satisfaction. |
I suppose my question is, do the perceived benefits of the more varied career at BA outweigh the potential negative aspects of a seniority based airline? Especially at the back end of the recruitment cycle we’ve just seen? Also, for those who have flown both SH and LH, is long haul really that much better? People always say that flying round Europe for 30 years would be boring but is flying round the world constantly jet lagged and staying in the same hotels actually that much better once the honeymoon period has worn off? |
Especially at the back end of the recruitment cycle we’ve just seen? |
Originally Posted by VinRouge
(Post 10489284)
what gives you the idea we are at the back end? OK maybe not back end, but they have certainly recruited heavily for the last year and a half so joining now would put you behind a large group of people. |
Originally Posted by Heisenb3rg
(Post 10489304)
OK maybe not back end, but they have certainly recruited heavily for the last year and a half so joining now would put you behind a large group of people.
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Originally Posted by VinRouge
(Post 10489313)
The forecast retirement bulge is huge. This is before any moves toward early retirement and an increasing trend for aspirational and RtR part time is accounted for. Not to mention new 350, 4x777-300 and starting delivery of 30+ 777-9 over the next 5 years. One thing is for sure, mobility up the MSL is not stopping any time soon. |
Originally Posted by RexBanner
(Post 10489331)
Agreed. MikeAlpha320, you’re a little too doom and gloom even for my tastes and believe me that’s saying something!! In response to your statement about not necessarily being entitled to a course once your freeze is up that is absolutely incorrect (as long as you have required seniority for the position of course). P&P rules agreed with Balpa, BA can only recruit a DEP to a LH position if the pilots who otherwise would have moved to these positions are frozen, if there are sufficient numbers of unfrozen people then no long haul DEP. Obviously there are caveats to that rule where in recent years BA have been able to demonstrate a lack of training capacity and therefore could recruit direct onto long haul ahead of unfrozen bidders. This hasn’t happened to a huge amount of pilots and those it has happened to have been given Waif status and been compensated with long haul pay and then moved the next training year. Unless there’s another Black Swan Event the numbers aren’t going to stop for the foreseeable. Passover pay only applies to commands out of seniority, and even then it’s on a one for one basis; and not to every single passed over pilot. |
I was under the impression that the individuals concerned had been given pass over pay. Given that was second hand information I could be wrong but, in any case, the rest of the info is all correct. |
You aren't entitled to a course if there are no courses going! Not saying DEP will be recruited ahead of you- just that if it all slows down you don't automatically have the right to move.
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Originally Posted by Percula
(Post 10489260)
I've been in the SH hold pool for 3 months so far. Any ideas on when courses might start being offered?
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BA can only recruit a DEP to a LH position if the pilots who otherwise would have moved to these positions are frozen |
Alright then Right Engine. You give me the number of how many unfrozen pilots that have actually been denied moves to Long Haul from Short Haul as a result of Long Haul DEP. The number is miniscule in the greater scheme of things. More or less everybody in recent years has been getting their move after 5 years, if not a little bit less than that, one Airbus pilot I know moved in the final year of her freeze to the 777 after only 3 and a bit years due to joining in December of the first training year. I’m only trying to point this out because some people are posting some very overly negative and misleading stuff about joining on the airbus and the risks associated with that. I’ve crunched the numbers and right now everything is pointing to me being on a Long Haul course in early 2021 having joined early 2016 (and possibly next year if enough people above me decide to stay as senior P2 on the Airbus due JSS). That’s exactly as advertised when I joined the company. (And MikeAlpha320 I take your point about courses not necessarily being available but, even with a slowdown that’s unlikely right now due to the large retirement numbers due in 2020/21). |
Rex, why do you think there are a large number of retirements due in 2020/21? VinRouge wrote something similar above "the forecast retirement bulge is huge." I hope that you are both right, but the retirement due to age prediction that I saw had about 100 retirements per year until 2029, when it increases to around 200. The data behind that forecast is quite old, but senior pilots date of birth hasn't changed.
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Originally Posted by Pickled
(Post 10489827)
Rex, why do you think there are a large number of retirements due in 2020/21? VinRouge wrote something similar above "the forecast retirement bulge is huge." I hope that you are both right, but the retirement due to age prediction that I saw had about 100 retirements per year until 2029, when it increases to around 200. The data behind that forecast is quite old, but senior pilots date of birth hasn't changed.
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