You're missing the point.

Without some kind of bidding system no-one will ever get anything they want
(time off or destinations) , whereas the company can roster as it likes to EASA limits.

It seems to me the modern world you refer to is zero hours contracts and no protection from ruthless employers.

I know which i'd rather have!

There are many the whole way up the seniority list who have not got what they bid for because they are in type freezes.

BA have always recruited DEP to LH, and generally held people to freezes. None of this should be a surprise. It's not like they're holding anyone back (on the 320) which I imagine BA would dearly like to.

What you're arguing for is zero freezes at all. ie: If someone junior (in this case it happens to be DEPs) get a move to a fleet you bid for then so should you regardless of any freeze. Not enjoying the 747 you bid for last year? Doesn't matter, you can bid onto the 380/777 anytime you like because someone junior but unfrozen got it.

Why is the engagement freeze a special case?

Secondly where is the sim and training pilot capacity going to come from for these extra few hundred A320 courses you just created? They're already outsourcing a fair chunk of the work to CTC as we don't have enough sims or IRE/TREmfor this level of movement.

For starters I do realize that different people have different problems, but here's mine: Since the email about no NTR 320 courses will be available went out yesterday I'm potentially stuck on a turboprop for a no future company earning barely half the entry level wage of a BA anything pilot even though I've had years and years in my company. Why? Because even though I'm high up the hold pool list I got leapfrogged by people with a rating (which I do understand), but more importantly by people with a rating who initially failed in different stages of the recruitment but got called back to retake just parts of it even though I worked hard and managed to pass everything straight off the bat...

I get that it's a cost thing and I get that it's a training capacity thing, but it sure feels more unfair and more of a problem than someone being :mad: off because of the fact that they were offered 320 and someone they know got straight in to LH. Perspective, people.... I'll be very disappointed for a while for sure since my career goal was about to be fulfilled, but hopefully the "this situation may, however, change" will come in to force sooner rather than later.

Oh bloody hell. Cry me a river :{

Ex-BMI Airbus guys leapfrogging frozen Airbus guys onto LH. Now we're talking unfair. But what can you do?

I think it is worth pausing for a moment and remember what BMI bought to the table-- 30 aircraft enabling the LGW 737 fleet to be replaced,new routes,but more importantly the daily slot increase (around 55),enabling BA to expand its long haul route structure,so much so that time to command has tumbled and BA taking on record numbers of Pilots securing everyones future.
The expansion is so great that company is struggling to crew flights on some days,and the Biblical size profits is reflecting this.

Maybe some ex-BMI guys are"Leapfrogging" onto long haul but that was the deal at the time( which BALPA agreed )of the take over,so without those BMI slots the Company would be stagnating.

Sometimes life is not always fair but in the big scheme of things a few "Leapfroggers" is a small blip in a life long career.

I guess there is a clue as to why so many people don't want the Airbus,and bid off it asap.

The ex-BMI guys were offered promotion from RHS to LHS in accordance with their relative seniority in BMI so an FO who was close to command in BMI would get his command in approximately the same time as if he had stayed in BMI.

As BMI was operating the A330 they were also granted alleviation for out of mainline seniority transfers to LH in accordance with their pilot percentage against main line. I think about 5%-7% allowed early transfer as they would have realistically expected to go to the 330 within BMI.

It's a little hard to grumble about what was, after all, agreed upon the acquisition.

Otto, I remember how it felt to be in the hold pool (albeit not for as long as some others) and sympathise with how you're feeling. That being said, your email confirming the outcome of the sim assessment which confirmed your entry into the hold pool, probably said something along the lines of "when matched with a position you will be contacted with the details of the available position". The key words being "when matched". I know it's hard, after my (relatively brief) time doggy paddling in the pool, I had absolutely no nails left and was desperate to get the magic call. But in the mean time, chin up and try to relax. Publicly grumbling about your tales of woe in the pool isn't helping.

We were all told, including you I'm sure, that there are jobs for everyone that passes the process. That remains true but the strain on the training department is enormous at the moment. Be patient and keep smiling.

ATB,

2W2R

Right, it's easy to be misunderstood sometimes I guess. I was not whining nor was I expecting much sympathy since I know there are plenty of people out there who would be more than happy to be in my position. What I was trying to explain was that for everyone complaining about how they are frozen on SH or someone leapfrogging them for a LH position there is a lot worse places to be. And from my point of view, they know how it is working in BA because they're already in BA and still they come on to the forum complaining while we ALL have to accept the BA way of handling things, even people being leapfrogged in the pool. I'm sorry if I came across as negative about my own situation (which I to a certain point am) but that has nothing to do with the BA hold pool rather my current employer. I am however a bit annoyed that people can fail the process and then get called back and then go before people who passed it the first time (although I do believe in second chances) but the post was really about "there's always someone that would do anything to be in your place". Hence the, different people have different problems part...

I hope we have no more misunderstandings and no more pathetic "boo hoo" comments as that isn't exactly productive even if I would have been whining... :ok:

....On a slightly different note!

Regarding the flight capacity test on day 2 (ECAM/NAV simulation) what do they ask for in terms of descent calculations (E.G. Miles from waypoint to TOD or Rate of descent to be level by waypoint)? I heard they don't give whole flight levels?

Anyone on here been through recently who knows the answer?

chazzypuk11,

If I remember correctly, you could be at FL227 and asked to descend to FL193 to be level in exactly 3 minutes or level by a waypoint. The flight test is ok, but be prepared to come back with an answer quickly otherwise it'll descend for you and you could miss something else that's important.

This is on day 1 though.

With the greatest of respect, that is the BA way. They understand cost and little else. "Fair" is not of any relevance to them.

Misery
 

What about the BEA takeover of Northeast. Some people think that was jolly unfair but then there was the BA takeover of BCAL & then there's Danair. Perhaps you should all study history. Life is never fair to everyone, so get on with your life. Be grateful for what is offered & if you don't like it, don't join!

Many individuals have submitted themselves to an exacting succession of assessments recently for BA pilot recruitment. They have been given the chat: "jobs for everyone who makes the grade". They have duly done as they were bid and made the grade. They have then been told that they will need to enter the hold pool until they can be allocated TR courses and they have cheerfully agreed and exercised an appropriate degree of patience, understanding the 'unprecedented' recruitment requirements.

These people have shown good faith, however BA are now executing a reverse-ferret, conducting emergency expectation management. Meanwhile people with the right ticket, many of whom, frankly, didn't 'make the grade' first time round are getting in ahead of them.

There are of course good, commercial reasons for BA to do this. When you are cancelling flights due to lack of pilots you of course have to make harsh choices. But I'm not pleased to hear hold-poolers getting told to suck it up. They were made promises that aren't being fulfilled and are definitely getting seen off here.

The point is not that it is unfair. It is.

The point is this is how BA now operates. It is a money-making subsidiary of a giant corporate monolith (IAG), a monolith whose only interest is that its subsidiaries are profitable. IAG is largely uninterested in how those profits are generated. Emotion does not even compute. If you think it's likely to be much different once you're in, you may want to look elsewhere.

BA will recruit whoever is the most cost-effective for them. End of discussion. :sad:

I didn't write that to have a go at BA (I did say I understood their current policy) or indeed those who got a second go, day 1 assessment is indeed pretty arbitrary. I just don't like some of the dismissive comments against the hold-poolers who have a point and wish to express it on here - I mean, where else are they going to vent?!

I have to completely disagree with plastic.

It's not about being lucky or not. If a company opens its recruitment and that enables people to apply, typed or not, then if they pass that process and are made aware throughout that their is a job for them, then that's the end of it. Why is that lucky? That's the industry.... It's about timing. This issue of 'call backs' jumping ahead is a contentious one. If you pass first, second or third time, you deserve to get in. Ultimately 'business need' trumps it all and BA like any other business has to balance things.

Nothing externally has, as far as I am aware, reduced the requirement for pilots, just that the goal posts have changed. That's life and occurs in every industry. We have to be resilient and appreciate this is the industry we chose to enter knowing how volatile it can be. Hold poolers (like me) will wait patiently and see how things develop. I am of the opinion that they will need non typed pilots, just that the wait will be longer.

I am however amazed at some of the comments on this forum. We are all in this together. We have all been through the mill at some stage so I think respect for all is required. BA needs pilots, priorities have altered and capacity is maxed out, but let's all try and respect each other's circumstances and appreciate that if you decide to go through the process and pass, irrespective of your background then, you hope that you will end up in BA and I'm sure those in recruitment will hope that is the case too.

I understand Father Jack. But we all have our own troubles. What about those guys sat in the pool who are desperate for a long haul position - giving up the chance of an imminent command at easyJet to apply for BA purely because they want the lifestyle that long haul brings them - only to now receive an email saying that despite the fact there's actually a "significant number" of long haul vacancies, you're not likely to get one because you're A320 rated!

Cue five years stuck on short haul with the very real chance of being stuck again in five years time whilst DEP's are recruited to long haul ahead of them!

Now imagine how this reads to the Flybe/Eastern guy just desperate to get off turboprops!

Plastic787

When you applied for BA you understood it was for the baby bus, during which time circumstance has changed and now there is a need for long haul pilots.

I'm afraid timing is everything in this industry but surly you must be grateful to get the BA gig?

If you are so desperate for long haul why don't you apply to Air tanker? They are looking for pilots and flying long haul!

A320baby, you are completely missing my point. The non type rated guys in the pool were applying for an A320 position too, not a long haul one. Yet they are now in the frame for a long haul slot whereas the A320 rated are somehow not eligible. The point being these things are inherently unfair, so the moaning should take place somewhere else.

Moan all you want, it's all about capacity.

To release a current BA A320 pilot from SH to LH involves the LH conversion course and then a SH course for his DEP replacement into SH.

A DEP LH requires a LH conversion course.

One less course in a system where simulators, trainers and capacity are at maximum.

Join when you can, put up with SH, move over to LH and find yourself already further up the list than if you transferred today.

Conversion courses cost A LOT of money and, in the current climate where capacity is severely limited on certain fleets, cost is king over internal bidders I'm afraid. IAG thus BA will go for the cheapest option.