Is it really that bad?
 

For about 3 yrs I've been on Pprune and many of the things I hear about a pilots life is negative.

My main dream is to travel and the fact that I also love aviation. But with all the news and forums I have read I want to ask this question.

Is it really that bad?

Well.....
 

It's not as bad as it was before it was as bad as it is now.......

Day to day the nuts and bolts of the job can be very pleasant, rewarding and enjoyable.

Taken down to the bare bones nearly all commercial flying is basically 'shift work' which is well known to wear people out over time. The deeper problems can lie in the things behind the scenes, large financial burden, short term employment stability issues, a requirement to achieve at near as 100 percent of ability at all times coupled with shift work can make for a stressful old mix for what is basically a flesh and blood machine that is of course human IOS update 1.0 and only capable of so much.

It's a very expensive occupation there is no doubt. The risk burden is being pushed further onto the Pilot workforce; charging for training coupled with temporary/ fractional fixed term employment contracts. This happens in business of course when there is excess capacity and supply (look at air cargo at the minute!). The customer can pick and choose the terms and place greater 'risk' on the provider. In this case because there is an endless supply of keen people with desire to enter the profession. The airlines ever financially driven, successfully and insidiously shift what was previously their own burden further onto the employee or contractor. Unlike a business though, made up of many people, a Pilot has to carry that risk and burden on his todd which can make life quite a bumpy ride sometimes. This doesn't sit well with a job that requires clear thinking. It's been an area of focus on the industry for sometime now.

Just thoughts from myself, of course only my opinion. You'll perhaps hear some disagreement from the odd person sitting pretty in lovely jobs and good on them. But unfortunately a large amount of aircrew are not in that position.

The further you get from the UK, the better it gets. :ok:

Doesn't matter if you are pilot or anyone else, life was always bad for pessimist:O. I've chosen a life of pilot cos I never liked a life of some office worker. Seeing the cloud from above, flying into it, kiss landing on the RW is incomparable.

That's one of the many reasons I want to be a pilot!;):O

HumaidDaWorld, I personally would not recommend this career to anyone. I have young cousins and nephews who are interested and I constantly remind their parents to steer them away. Guys like you (clever, young, super keen) are plentiful. There will never be a shortage of your sort. The industry has finally realised this and hence we as pilots are being abused left, right and centre. I now fly only in the Summer because I make 3 x more money in the Winter doing my old job. There are only 2 or 3 proper career airlines left in the UK and competition to get into them is extremely high.

[QUOTE]Doesn't matter if you are pilot or anyone else, life was always bad for pessimist. I've chosen a life of pilot cos I never liked a life of some office worker. Seeing the cloud from above, flying into it, kiss landing on the RW is incomparable.[QUOTE]

You see. That's great but it's very blinkered and not the most emotionally mature approach to planning your career. I love flying, I started years ago when young myself. However, when you're in your 30s/40s being made redundant with a mortgage to pay, young children and facing a choice of paying yet more tens of thousands for a type rating to fly on a contract that is as short and bendy as a horticultural contract picking vegetables in the fens, or leaving the country for weeks on a shady 'commuting' contract that gives you 10 days off after 6 weeks away then calling yourself an optimist might help but, not in my experience or in the experience of many of my friends and colleagues in that situation.

It's this "slipped the surly bonds of Earth, danced the skies on laughter-silvered balls" kind of juvenile hog that powers the problem. As long as there are enough professional hobbiest short term thinking young guys/girls being wooed with wonderfully arrogant high brow agencies and Airlines offering Faustian deals, then it goes on. Certainly in the UK.

Hypothetically, imagine a bizarre world where due to some Orwellian rules on recruitment of flight crew, only mature folk in their mid 30s with a house and family were eligible. The job would not be in this state as people would be less bent on sacrificing everything to do it. Of course, air fares would be higher. Naturally that scenario is rubbish and can't happen. It would be a very bad ethos, as young entrants bring great qualities of trainability and enthusiasm. The low fare dam gates opened years ago and it's hard to put the water back. Now a lot of the companies are at it. Some good eggs don't don't abuse this yearning like Monarch and Virgin Atlantic. But as Super Pilot said, they are very few in number.

I would add to the original poster given you're just 16 years old, I think you're very wise and sensible to look beyond the immediate attraction ask yourself the wider questions. That approach will serve you well in whatever you do.

Cliff you think I'm by my age of 35 didn't make it up, I've got family-children are growing and maybe I wouldn't want my children to become pilots. Who knows what might come up, I'd be proud if at least one of them would become. If I went back in the days when I had that choice I'd choose it again to feel that first take off first flight first landing. The thread starting kid has a dream and we as professional pilots shouldn't break it. And UK is not the only place where pilots are needed or not needed:). You tried it and chose your way after all. Being a pilot is worth dreaming of. Good luck kid, you won't regret.

@HDW

it is very good and clever that you are asking this question. Even if you have a dream, it will not hurt to be realistic. When i was your age, i was also dreaming about being a pilot. Finally i managed the dream but after almost 6 years flying, i decided to leave this profession for a lot of reasons. I remember a poster saying: it is not because you love doing something, that it also needs to be a job. I agree, flying is fun, but if it is your job there are a lot of things, beside the fun factor, that comes into play.

You like travelling?? I would suggest to join the shipping industry. Always a lack of officers and well paid, and after done your years on sea, much more options regarding future perspectives.

Good luck whatever you choose!!:ok:

Ulugbek-pilot

My sincere apologies, I didn't mean to insuate you were juvenile in your approach and can see it does read like that which is incorrect of me.

My point was that I think the thinking can be quite blinkered when starting out young because flying is so alluring on the face of it. It's one thing as you know flying light aircraft and enjoying all those things but the career itself is changing and a choice to enter can bring many more ramifications.

At no point did I say to the original poster categorically not to do it or am I attempting to break his/her 'dream'. Cold honest sensible considerations are required when signing up to a career in flying. Its different if it was just flying for fun. Large loans and repayments are no respecter of dreams or age. When a 16 year old signs up to the army I doubt whether they just say 'don't worry about everything else you get to fire automatic weapons and dress up like Rambo, it's great fun'. They take pains to educate new entrants all areas of their chosen avenue, harsh bits and all.

I also didn't say the UK was the only area where this happens, I can only speak from experience of the UK and as I added it is only my opinion.

I've a couple of friends who are Officers in the UK Merchant Navy, they seem to like it. You're obviously away a lot but but all the training was paid for right from the start at college and there is real progression up the ranks.

All good talking points!

If you want to fly because you love flying then the other option is to get a good job and fly for pleasure. I have several friends in the airline industry and frankly on balance I'm glad I didn't do it.

As a private pilot I can go where I want, when I want with who I want. The flying is still (probably more) enjoyable as it is hands on piloting skills 100% of the time and you fly low and slow enough to take in the sights. It's surprising how many airline pilots also fly light aircraft. Why do you suppose that is?

However having said that, if you have a dream then go for it because if you don't you will always wonder 'what if?'

The invest 120k to earn 20k thread is quite relevant. The FAA 1500 ruling is interesting if not controversial to some people. UK used to have an unofficial system where sole experience did count and aided self balancing of terms, but of course it's changed a lot.

I know the UK market is different from the USA. I know many say regulation isn't the answer. Outside of flying in non safety critical industries it could be left to run its course and survival of the fittest philosophy left to do its thing with employees and employers. I can't see our regulator stepping in to referee this mess anytime soon as long as audits prove everything is safe on the face of it. Pretty damn obtuse of them.

If it were me I wouldn't bother just get a good Job and fly microlights about on weekends :O

Wouldn't want to do anything else but fly, even my big boring jet! But I certainly wouldn't want to start in this lark or be at the bottom of the ladder now!

Such a mixed bag. As someone near the beginning of their career my salary is higher than any of my mates from sixth form (doctors, engineers etc.), admittedly not as good as the old days but still good. Bear in mind whilst I reach my top earnings faster, in the long term they will probably earn more though.

Job security, yes well, the last few years have proved anyone anywhere can be stung. Even me, who as I previously mentioned is right at the start, well I've been laid off once already!

I think it's all about where you end up too. Some airlines are naturally better than others in all aspects. I won't go into that because these forums are full of posts about said airlines.

All I will say is for as much heartache and work it's taken to get where I am today, rewind 6 years and I would do it all again. Call me an optimist a pessimist a dreamer whatever, but I've always known I wanted to fly and the job has truly matched up to my expectations so far. Maybe at 35 I won't feel the same. But right now that's my thoughts.

If I had fully understood the financial risks I took back then I would have never done it. Back then I did not realize just how hard it was to get a foot through the door to the first couple of jobs before you have experience enough to really be able to compete for good jobs. Today that financial risk is WAAAY higher than back then. We also had no internet to educate ourselves about the industry in the same way as is possible today. Today there is no excuse not knowing exactly what you get yourself and your future family in to.

You really want to fly? Try the military or if you are 25 or younger (and European passport holder) try getting in to BA's or Lufthansa's cadet schemes, or whatever they call hem these days. Not speaking German and failing the DLR test will rule out Lufthansa. While trying these routes, get yourself a proper education to fall back on.

A military career is abviously going to be very different depending on which country you were born in but at least you are not going to pay for your training and there are quite a few non-flying career options to continue your career, both inside and outside the armed forces. BA and Lufthansa are big companies that are likely to be around for some time in one form or another. Start at 22 and you'll have your first command (and more importantly a decent pay) by the time you're 35.

CP

Its still a good life so long as you accept (and ignore) the fact that it is degraded from the heady years between 1950 and 1990, when there was a heady wiff of the exotic about anything to do with aviation and those who were involved in it.
Air travel is now as mundane as a bowel movement for the passengers and staff, so recalibrate what you expect from a career in flying and you won't be disappointed. It is now effectively a technical shift work job, akin to many others. The barrier to entry is mostly financial which you can either live with or not. Luck and timing will play their part in dictating whether you end up in a better or not so good job. Subsequently, with time and reasonable diligence you will end up a Captain with a very reasonable salary and hopefully a pension at the end of it all.
Personally, I would view a 40 year career with a LoCo as hell. To avoid insanity I would try to plan a career which takes advantage of the good things aviation has to offer. So, maybe a few years with a LoCo to get some experience, then perhaps a move to the ME or FE, but with an exit plan. Then maybe a few years doing some quality contract work (when the kids are older and you are more mobile), finishing off with a couple of years tooling round in a regional jet just to top up the pension income. Finally, retirement and a share in a nice little light a/c (or a yacht) and a holiday home somewhere exotic.
Many options are out there which will make aviation an interesting and rewarding life, even if the romance of being a pilot has largely gone. But, the happiest pilots I have met are the ones who have had a varied worklife.
All IMHO, of course!

Good post by Macdo and reality from john_smith...

So, to sum up HumaidDaWorld;
COMPROMISE...COMPROMISE...COMPROMISE...at every step of the way!

My main dream is to travel and the fact that I also love aviation.

Get a well paid job that gives you a balanced challenging life; balance of work and social. Go on long-haul holidays in business class: join a flying club, perhaps a flying group and then go and fun fly. Even gliding; paragliding or paramotoring. Do some aeros. Every time you leave the ground is a flying contraption it will be fun and because you chose to do so.

PILOT SHORTAGE PROPAGANDA
 

THE AIRLINE CREATED PILOT SHORTAGE MYTH
In case you missed the impossible-to-ignore, cut-to-the-chase conclusion, the pilot shortage is another nasty side effect of the airline's industry race to the bottom of everything from employee wages and benefits to passenger service and comfort.
There's countless young guys waiting in the wings with a shiny new licence willing to work for next to nothing, a situation which is perfect for the airlines who ultimately will be more than happy to have the co-pilots fly for free and the captains on half their present income. This is their ultimate aim.

The flight schools also want everyone to believe in the mythical pilot shortage. Too many new pilots on the market means cheap wage dogs.
In 5 years with my current employer (cough), I have seen first officer salaries literally halved. HALVED. In five years.
ONE HUNDRED AND FIFTY THOUSAND EURO DEBT AND 23,000 euro salary.

This is happening in the states also.
See this article..........

How miserly airlines created their own pilot shortage - Phoenix Business Journal

It depends where u work!! pprune seems to be full of people at the :mad: end of aviation working for average operators to average airports. There are lots of aviators at the other end of the spectrum who have amazing careers. Do you think they can be bothered contributing to most of the threads on here about whiz or ryan?

In my case it's amazing, I'm living the dream, In jan I had a week in Thailand and a week in Barbados, I'm currently sitting on a lounger in Jamaica waiting for beer o'clock and the view/crew is pretty good too.

And that's the wonderful variation of this career! Personally, done all that DC has described and can't think of anything worse, now I love been at home every-night in rural England!

Other mans grass and all that...

Enjoy your Red Stripe!

Well my statement was meant more as general one, start early and you'll be ok. As to the 23 years to command that's not what I hear from my friends in BA but then again, hard to know exact numbers as there are so many variables.

DC, most your post is correct, there are lots of shabby jobs in aviation, with people desperate to move on. It is a realistic expectation that the first job you get post training may be one of these, but like everyone did 30 years ago trugging around in a Chieftain that had so many faults it was a miracle that you got to destination, you bide your time and move on when the opportunity arises. I think many of the gripes on pprune are from people who thought this was a one way ticket to an easy life, which it is not. Over the years there has been periodic attacks on the life in every airline going, remember when VS put the 747 classic fleet and its pilots out the door? VS was not flavour of the month for years. Ever spent the evening in the bar with a bunch of BA pilots? They could winge on forever about how awful their lot is! And actually, even the BA guys do have a point, nothing is as good as it was. Bottom of the seniority list, on a different contract and a bidline system does not make for happy bunnies.
I differ with you on your last point, I'm glad you are having an amazing time and I hope you can remember those times if the going gets tough for you. I enjoy the same lifestyle as you, but, that same lifestyle would have been absolute hell when I had a young wife and family back at home. Which was the precise point of my original post, you have to try and tailor your job and life so they don't clash and that is the way to enjoy a career as a pilot.
Enjoy the beach!

Be careful what you wish for!

Airline flying is a very different beast to 20 years ago, and people still haven't twigged that. The problem is that it'll get worse.

That said, as a 20 something year old it's hard to dissuade them when the other option is desk work of some sort!

How miserly airlines created their own pilot shortage - Phoenix Business Journal

So beautifully stated.

Hey man,

I can tell you a bit from the inside. I flew for a LCC and quit, and changed career... Glad i did it sooner, because most of guys are stucked.
An advice, if you really want to try, get a degree first !! It is a MUST.

Bear in mind, a pilot has just a big "driving license" which can be revocated at anytime. You miss an altitude level, or you descent without clearance and you are screwed.
So, get a degree and have some skills other than piloting.

I tell you that because, I did not get a degree...and changing career after a pilot career is quite a challenge ! Yeah you know VOR, GPS, you know ILS approach, something that nobody cares in the other world on ground.

- Your dream is to travel ?
It was mine too. Believe me, I traveled less than most of my friends actually who have a normal job. Isn't it Ironic ? (or pathetic ?)
Most of the time I saw runways, aprons and cockpit. Yes in a LCC you do not have time to get out of the cockpit that much. Just enough time to pee and take the next flight plans, weather, notams. 30min of turn around is very short. (an tiring with time).
Maybe you think "oh, we can travel on our days OFF " . Hum...yes...but when you are OFF, honestly, you do not want to be in a plane or wait at the airport anymore. Being OFF means, doing something completely different. Stay at home and relax, doing sport etc.

The thing is don't confuse Travel and travel. A pilot's job is to carry people from A to B. The management does not pay you to Travel.
If you manage to land in a right seat, it will be for sure, a LCC.
So, if you sleep in another city, believe me, the firsts things you will do :
Shower and Sleep. Because you will have to enough fit for the next flight !

If you like to travel, the best thing is to do it during your real days OFF.
A pilot does not travel... no no no no and NO. It's quite an illusion.
Play flight simulator on your Computer, and you get pretty much the same feeling. You land, and you take off again...4 times each day.

- You love aviation. Of course. I would say that 99% of us, all the pilot, loved or love aviation. We all started with that in mind. :)

But, just to clarify one thing :
Loving something, does not mean to do it as a professionnal. You really should make the difference.
To avoid any disappointments, you should just like it. that's it.

Pilot is not a job, it's a lifestyle.
If you like to live as a bohemian, go for it. I would say it's a bit a nice job for youngs. But you approach 30, you really starts to think differently.
That's why, I told you : get a BACK UP PLAN.

Because, being stucked in a lifestyle that you dislike after a while, you will really feel like depressed. Maybe that's why we see negative comments on forums.

Be smart !

Any human being want to control his life a minimum. Being a pilot you don't control that much. You are a tool for the management.
You're young it's ok. But in case of change, be prepared.

Today I am lot happier with recreationnal flight on beside my new job. When I was in Asia, I did not have time to fly as hobby. But anyway, there were no flying clubs !! so...no choice... and I can tell I really missed it.

Bad or not, you will judge yourself (I hope for you), it's your life.

Would I recommend this career ? No...if it was free, yes why not. But considering the cost of training and the investment return, definetly no...especially with the career evolution now. Climing the ladder is harder and harder. Most fo the guys start in a LCC and will end up in a....LCC or in another job. Because 40 years in a LCC ? no way ! unless being a robot lol.

Great question... answered by lots of well-informed posters giving their honest opinions in an attempt to fully answer the young man's desire for guidance... this is what Prune is all about.... not a place to air sour grapes or score points off others as is what happens most of the time... well done all !

Interesting Comments
 

Some honest interesting comments here.

I did the pilot career thing flying private jets first and then for 5 different airlines.
Over 15 years I saw the hours per month worked triple and the money stay the same. I then looked at colleagues that had gone off to fly long-haul and become Chief pilots and they were a nervous wreck. However, a few friends managed to find a good job flying a rich guys private jet 120-150 hrs a year and pocketing nice money.

I have always had a knack for business so I have managed to combine my love for flying with business and now sell and lease aircraft.

Would I suggest a pilot career to a young person? Well, as you know qualifying will cost you in region of £120K and the ROI is not very good. However, if you have the money and are young and REALLY want to give it a go... If you have a family it will be tough on them, this is why many pilots end up divorced. The guys doing well are usually single. However, if you manage to join a company like Lufthansa or British Airways you will end up with a good balance.

It all depends what you are looking for in life.

A good way forward if you can manage it would be
Get an education to degree level
Get life skills
Get employable skills outside aviation
Avoid paying top dollar for your flight training
Avoid the LCCs like the plague if you can

I was lucky to career change and remain in my previous career part time as well as flying big shiny jets (my previous career pays much better than the Locos)

Having a degree and life/work skills outside aviation keeps you out of the trap of been totally dependent on the industry

Doing both part time could help not become too downhearted with either, ironically you could find you would tend to miss the one your not doing.

As with the other fantastic advice on this thread my advice would definetely be:

Get a degree get life skills first have something else. Train as economically as you can, avoid the larger debt

I would offer second advice of:

Avoid paying top whack at a FTO and going straight into the RHS of a brand spanking new jet with no back up plan a relatively low wage and big training debt. Working a mad lifestyle ruining roster for a company that doesnt actually look after you or care for you

The sensible person would not clamour for this situation. And this is exactly the situation that many are falling into. Be smart. Dont get sucked into the hype or the marketing spiel,

Good luck - if you take the right approach it can still be the best job in the world, it seems you are doing the right research from the outset and there is some genuine and excellent advice on this thread

Personally I'd add the caveat " but only of you can get in on the current T&Cs". At at least one of those airlines some in management are licking their lips at the leverage the new EASA regulations will give them to fundamentally alter work patterns and lifestyles forever, and not for the better.

I really wish I could "gift" youngsters the career I had - 12 years pulling the wings off government hardware and then a quarter of a century :uhoh: on Long Haul....but I can't :(

The only advice I can give these days is do lots of research, don't believe the FTO's shiny brochures, and above all don't get into a silly amount of debt trying to "live the dream"...

(Edit to add: Seems I've set a few alarm bells ringing. I do not wish to be unnecessarily alarmist but IMHO prospective newbies need to be aware that even the seemingly "gold standard" airlines will be unable to maintain their current T&Cs given current commercial pressures and legislative changes).

Working for a LCC is a bit of a drudge and it would be fair to say that none of my colleagues think that they are "living the dream". For most it is a means to an end, it pays off the loan and keeps food on the table. The mind bending monotony of 4 sector days helps to numb us out of any inkling that we are enjoying what we do for a living.

Bearing in mind that it is a pretty average way of making a living, I am somewhat mystified as to why people would want to pay a large amount of money in order to do it.

Most of the new...ish guys at my base view it as a better alternative to an office job, but as a lifestyle, erm.... it's shift work, boring, dirty and tiring.

I can always understand why people would want to do it, and there are lots of worse jobs out there.

It's when people get confused with the lifestyle of a 1980s BA LH Captain, and think that's what they're signing up for. A very different world, and one that will continue downwards as the aircraft become increasingly modernised.

The flip side of the objectively good advice about asking around and doing good research is this: if you are having to think that hard about it then, no don't do it. Go into I.T. or accountancy, or something.
On the other hand if you really, really want to fly aircraft for a living, then nothing else will make you happy.
I've been doing nothing else for over 20 years in a mix of G.A. and SH. Some jobs better than others, but overall the best move I ever made (career-wise, anyway...).
So the question kind of answers itself.

A very good point by 16024, but please don' t then complain about £$

Flying big jets long haul can be superlative, especially if you're homeless, single, no kids, no baggage, and no ambitions of a family life. :ooh:

I think that depends on the rostering...if you've got some element of control (so you can at least attempt to avoid working every weekend/holiday/), have some decent trip constructions/destinations - not just a perpetual string of three day trips back and forth across the pond, and your contract means you don't have to aim to fly the CAA/EASA maximum every month then you can have some quality time at home not feeling like a zombie.....OTOH if you're not that lucky it can be very unpleasant..and yes, antisocial.

Wiggy speaks from the top of the tree. As he admits, for new joiners it's going to be a whole lot different, especially when loco and legacy T&Cs effectively merge (or meet at the loco end).

Answer : YES