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-   -   easyJet Lisbon pilots announcing 5 days of strike (https://www.pprune.org/terms-endearment/528879-easyjet-lisbon-pilots-announcing-5-days-strike.html)

Aluminium shuffler 5th Dec 2013 07:47

Having worked for a few locos, and knowing plenty of people in both the main EU rivals and many other EU airlines too, I can honestly say they they aren't of any specific type. They are just like other airlines' pilots. Some very ill-informed people will suggest that loco pilots are in some way inferior, but if that were the case, why would the legacy carriers be so keen on recruiting them? I can't see an inferior class of pilot dealing with so many NPAs on to postage stamp sized contaminated runways with next to no company support and so much time pressure not coming a cropper; the conditions that they operate in without any significant statistical incident blip shows they are mostly very capable indeed.

As for their attitudes and them letting the industry slide, some people do not have the luxury of sitting unemployed until the plumb jobs open up for them, and if they did they'd be so far out of currency that they'd be unemployable. You have to take the jobs that are available, and you can't dictate terms from outside. Some also put family before job satisfaction, and would rather work for an unpleasant employer or for lower salaries than leave their family, and I count myself amongst those.

So, should those individuals be barred from trying to improve their lot? Of course not. And by improving conditions at one of the locos, other rivals will have to up their game to compete, and ultimately so will the legacy carriers. So rather than condemning these guys, they should be applauded and encouraged.

Lord Spandex Masher 5th Dec 2013 08:19


Originally Posted by WHYEYEMAN (Post 8187589)
As someone who flies with these 'spoilt rich kids' with little or no flying ability,...I have only had to say 'I have control' 3 times and 2 of those times were with senior FO's who worked their way up through the ranks so to speak.

In nearly twenty years of not flying with spoilt rich kids I have had to say "I have control" precisely zero times.

WHYEYEMAN 5th Dec 2013 23:46

But to be fair, the Airbus can be a little trickier than turboprops and barbie-jets. :E

Lord Spandex Masher 6th Dec 2013 10:22

You've never flown a Q400 then:ok:

RexBanner 6th Dec 2013 13:49

Amen to that LordSpandexMaster, I've recently moved from Q400 to A320 and the difficulty in handling the latter compared to the former is quite staggering. In a good way.

FANS 6th Dec 2013 14:02


Debatable. I would be happy to put their hand flying skills up against just about any North American pilot who has worked his way up rather than flight school to airliner
Today, you don't need to be ace with 20-20 uncorrected vision, lightning reflexes, perfect co-ordination etc etc. Therefore, the supply of people is much greater, and it's impacted upon the price 20 years after the introduction of the A320.

WHYEYEMAN 7th Dec 2013 09:55

Seriously though, if that is the case then I am genuinely looking forward to flying with some of your ex-colleagues. :ok:

justagigolo77 8th Dec 2013 17:53

@FANS,

Nope, handflying skills are useless, inexperienced 250 hr super star airline f/o's could handle this no problem and know when to say enough?

http://www.pprune.org/spectators-bal...ham-today.html

These are 2 of the newest aircraft types being flown and very automated. The first one is a 777, same type as Asiana in SFO, no? (flown by people with no other experience but airliner "button pushing"), the second is the same type as the Colgan KBUF crash, no? (Also piloted by low time direct airline crew member). There are 2 very direct examples of how experience, saves lives!!

Alexander de Meerkat 8th Dec 2013 18:23

justagiglio77 - given that you have never flown, and are never likely to fly, either a Boeing or an Airbus, I am not sure you are really in a position to criticise any of their pilots. Going around from unstable approaches is a key skill of any commercial airline pilot, and anyone who does so is commended in my airline rather than criticised. I realise in the 'can do' world of GA where you live and dwell (which coincidentally has a 5 times greater accident rate than commercial aviation) that is not how things work. Nonetheless, we can be assured you are a very talented chap, because you have told us so. The stats are very interesting:

Accident statistics

captplaystation 8th Dec 2013 19:01

Think we are veering away from the point here.

I am guessing LIS based pilots either were

A - Portugese & happy to find a job at home

B - Chose the base to get a quick command

C - got sent there when the (very- for employees ) lucrative MAD base was closed.

Correct me if I am wrong, but, in any case, life in LIS is not so cheap (certainly the tax bill) so, it is normal that these guys want to be renumerated on a similar level to other bases. . . so much for 1 happy family :hmm: I hope other bases do what they (legally ) can to help them achieve parity with those doing the same job for the same company. . . END OF.

Aluminium shuffler 8th Dec 2013 19:02

Jig - Asiana pilots were experienced, as were the Birmingham Al A300 guys, the TK AMS Capt and observer, the Colgan, SW excursions and nosewheel guys, the American Cali and the Atlas guys who landed at the wrong airport. Stop flogging a dead horse.

justagigolo77 8th Dec 2013 19:06

Playstation is correct, however shuffler, pushing buttons and cruising for hours and hours while reading the newspaper or eating your crew meal is NOT experience! All the examples I mentioned were these types of crews, inexperienced in basic skills!

captplaystation 8th Dec 2013 19:27

justagigolo77,

honestly, I pretty much agree/respect all the things you are saying, but. . .wrong thread mate := I think it is important to stay " on topic", this is a rather serious thread related to divide & conquer, which you possibly know (even from a distance) is what is screwing this profession for anyone working in Europe.. . . even if you include the "mighty" Lufthansa (via Eurowings)

Crew experience/competency are a whole other thread, but, respectfully, not on this one . Ta :ok:

justagigolo77 8th Dec 2013 21:04

Yes I do agree Capt, my apologies. The thread did morph and I'm sure that's the reason another thread was started.

On Topic, there will be a lot more said if we see a large pilot group roll over and bend over the barrel with the reasoning "well if I don't, someone else will". That is the most ludicrous justification for accepting any reduced conditions. Stick together, no doubt, but this should have never happened in the first place had selfish pilots and greedy companies not allowed it to happen.

stiglet 9th Dec 2013 09:04

As far as the company were concerned LIS was started and always intended as a lower cost base. All the employees and outsiders in the know knew that. Some opted for all sorts of reasons to take the job at LIS in full knowlegde of the situation/contract. Once the positions were filled the company had their wish.

There is no real justification now in demanding equality with other bases. By all means fight like everyone else to improve T&C but don't expect parity with the other countries now. Notwithstanding that both sides have to honour the signed contracts. If the company are breaking any part of the contract I can understand the strike call; if not I cannot see the justification for a strike. The only thing that will improve the T&C now are supply and demand; if there are no pilots willing to take the jobs in LIS as the need arises the offer will improve.

kungfu panda 11th Dec 2013 09:31

Stiglet your post requires me to restrain my anger.

Easyjet, Ryanair, Wizz etc. have CEO's and Management who have been amongst the most manipulative in recent business history, they have exploited loopholes in the laws of different countries within the EU and have entirely disregarded the spirit of the Law. The Airline industry is the only industry which allows for this kind of exploitation.

I do not know the history of Easyjet in Madrid or in Lisbon, but it appears to me that closing the base in Madrid and opening a base in Lisbon was another method of manipulating the EU laws to benefit Easy shareholders and was to the detriment of Pilots and their families who had moved to their base in Madrid. They were then probably offered a take it or leave it offer in Lisbon, which of course they had to take because they need to support their families.

Throughout europe over the last 200 years our grandparents and great grandparents have fought for the right to negotiate with employers in a collective bargaining unit for the best possible terms that we can achieve. In attempting to improve our life and that of our family we have the right to withdraw our Labor within the guidelines of the law. This is a right under all Laws within Europe.

It appears to me that the Pilots based in Lisbon have very ligitimate reasons to strike, they have been coersed into signing an entirely unfair contract, that does not meet company standard.

For better paid colleagues to come in from another base to break the strike is unforgivable. It is equivalent to stealing from your own family.

I know that you talk about supply and demand and I am not a socialist but pure capitalism in it's extreme gives all the money to very few people and leaves everybody else without. We are entitled to use our power to strike as a means to maintain the balance.

Xulu 11th Dec 2013 10:00

Ummm, those that will get called off standby on Christmas morning, to position to Lisbon to operate earlies on Boxing Day are selfish?

Really?? :ugh:

The company don't care, as long as the flights still go. So why should UK pilots pay the price, and be demonised at the same time?

stiglet 11th Dec 2013 11:10

Xulu - UK pilots are obligued to 'pay the price' as we are constrained by our contracts and UK law regardless of our views on the strike action. To refuse would render us liable to breaking our contracts and therefore in jeopardy of disciplinary action.

kungfu panda 11th Dec 2013 11:25

What a wonderful Christmas present you guys are prepared to give your Lisbon based colleagues (who are sticking their necks out far further than the English guys dare), break their ligitimate industrial action.

I personally believe that to do that would be beneath contempt, but look after no.1, I know.....:D

stiglet 11th Dec 2013 11:53

kunfu panda - companies are here for the benefit of shareholders not pilots. The closeure of MAD was purley a commercial decision. Noone was offerred a 'take it or leave it' offer to move to LIS. When MAD was closed they were offerred choices of bases in the network and I understand a very satisfactory financial package. I don't know how many if any opted for LIS.

Of course we all have the right to negotiate our terms and conditions and, within the law take industrial action. No one was 'coersed' into signing 'an entirely unfair contract' they knew exactly what the contract was and they took it, if they want to renegotiate their contract that is up to them. Whether either side has broken the terms of their contract has yet to be established. As for colleagues to be accussed of strike breaking is unfair as we are constrained by our contracts. If the company ask us to fly we are obligued to comply as, I believe, we are not permitted (under UK law) to take secondary action in support of the LIS pilots. As an employee my loyalties are split between my company and my colleagues and indeed the passengers who untimately pay my wages. I have been in the company a long time and as far as employers go I have found easyJet to be very fair.

Whether you believe any contract is good or bad is subjective as it takes so many personal factors into account. Objectively this contract is generally considered poor in relation to the other easyJet contracts however regarding the industry as a whole none of us are badly paid.


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