Having worked for a few locos, and knowing plenty of people in both the main EU rivals and many other EU airlines too, I can honestly say they they aren't of any specific type. They are just like other airlines' pilots. Some very ill-informed people will suggest that loco pilots are in some way inferior, but if that were the case, why would the legacy carriers be so keen on recruiting them? I can't see an inferior class of pilot dealing with so many NPAs on to postage stamp sized contaminated runways with next to no company support and so much time pressure not coming a cropper; the conditions that they operate in without any significant statistical incident blip shows they are mostly very capable indeed.

As for their attitudes and them letting the industry slide, some people do not have the luxury of sitting unemployed until the plumb jobs open up for them, and if they did they'd be so far out of currency that they'd be unemployable. You have to take the jobs that are available, and you can't dictate terms from outside. Some also put family before job satisfaction, and would rather work for an unpleasant employer or for lower salaries than leave their family, and I count myself amongst those.

So, should those individuals be barred from trying to improve their lot? Of course not. And by improving conditions at one of the locos, other rivals will have to up their game to compete, and ultimately so will the legacy carriers. So rather than condemning these guys, they should be applauded and encouraged.

In nearly twenty years of not flying with spoilt rich kids I have had to say "I have control" precisely zero times.

But to be fair, the Airbus can be a little trickier than turboprops and barbie-jets. :E

You've never flown a Q400 then:ok:

Amen to that LordSpandexMaster, I've recently moved from Q400 to A320 and the difficulty in handling the latter compared to the former is quite staggering. In a good way.

Today, you don't need to be ace with 20-20 uncorrected vision, lightning reflexes, perfect co-ordination etc etc. Therefore, the supply of people is much greater, and it's impacted upon the price 20 years after the introduction of the A320.

Seriously though, if that is the case then I am genuinely looking forward to flying with some of your ex-colleagues. :ok:

@FANS,

Nope, handflying skills are useless, inexperienced 250 hr super star airline f/o's could handle this no problem and know when to say enough?

http://www.pprune.org/spectators-bal...ham-today.html

These are 2 of the newest aircraft types being flown and very automated. The first one is a 777, same type as Asiana in SFO, no? (flown by people with no other experience but airliner "button pushing"), the second is the same type as the Colgan KBUF crash, no? (Also piloted by low time direct airline crew member). There are 2 very direct examples of how experience, saves lives!!

justagiglio77 - given that you have never flown, and are never likely to fly, either a Boeing or an Airbus, I am not sure you are really in a position to criticise any of their pilots. Going around from unstable approaches is a key skill of any commercial airline pilot, and anyone who does so is commended in my airline rather than criticised. I realise in the 'can do' world of GA where you live and dwell (which coincidentally has a 5 times greater accident rate than commercial aviation) that is not how things work. Nonetheless, we can be assured you are a very talented chap, because you have told us so. The stats are very interesting:

Accident statistics

Think we are veering away from the point here.

I am guessing LIS based pilots either were

A - Portugese & happy to find a job at home

B - Chose the base to get a quick command

C - got sent there when the (very- for employees ) lucrative MAD base was closed.

Correct me if I am wrong, but, in any case, life in LIS is not so cheap (certainly the tax bill) so, it is normal that these guys want to be renumerated on a similar level to other bases. . . so much for 1 happy family :hmm: I hope other bases do what they (legally ) can to help them achieve parity with those doing the same job for the same company. . . END OF.

Jig - Asiana pilots were experienced, as were the Birmingham Al A300 guys, the TK AMS Capt and observer, the Colgan, SW excursions and nosewheel guys, the American Cali and the Atlas guys who landed at the wrong airport. Stop flogging a dead horse.

Playstation is correct, however shuffler, pushing buttons and cruising for hours and hours while reading the newspaper or eating your crew meal is NOT experience! All the examples I mentioned were these types of crews, inexperienced in basic skills!

justagigolo77,

honestly, I pretty much agree/respect all the things you are saying, but. . .wrong thread mate := I think it is important to stay " on topic", this is a rather serious thread related to divide & conquer, which you possibly know (even from a distance) is what is screwing this profession for anyone working in Europe.. . . even if you include the "mighty" Lufthansa (via Eurowings)

Crew experience/competency are a whole other thread, but, respectfully, not on this one . Ta :ok:

Yes I do agree Capt, my apologies. The thread did morph and I'm sure that's the reason another thread was started.

On Topic, there will be a lot more said if we see a large pilot group roll over and bend over the barrel with the reasoning "well if I don't, someone else will". That is the most ludicrous justification for accepting any reduced conditions. Stick together, no doubt, but this should have never happened in the first place had selfish pilots and greedy companies not allowed it to happen.

As far as the company were concerned LIS was started and always intended as a lower cost base. All the employees and outsiders in the know knew that. Some opted for all sorts of reasons to take the job at LIS in full knowlegde of the situation/contract. Once the positions were filled the company had their wish.

There is no real justification now in demanding equality with other bases. By all means fight like everyone else to improve T&C but don't expect parity with the other countries now. Notwithstanding that both sides have to honour the signed contracts. If the company are breaking any part of the contract I can understand the strike call; if not I cannot see the justification for a strike. The only thing that will improve the T&C now are supply and demand; if there are no pilots willing to take the jobs in LIS as the need arises the offer will improve.

Stiglet your post requires me to restrain my anger.

Easyjet, Ryanair, Wizz etc. have CEO's and Management who have been amongst the most manipulative in recent business history, they have exploited loopholes in the laws of different countries within the EU and have entirely disregarded the spirit of the Law. The Airline industry is the only industry which allows for this kind of exploitation.

I do not know the history of Easyjet in Madrid or in Lisbon, but it appears to me that closing the base in Madrid and opening a base in Lisbon was another method of manipulating the EU laws to benefit Easy shareholders and was to the detriment of Pilots and their families who had moved to their base in Madrid. They were then probably offered a take it or leave it offer in Lisbon, which of course they had to take because they need to support their families.

Throughout europe over the last 200 years our grandparents and great grandparents have fought for the right to negotiate with employers in a collective bargaining unit for the best possible terms that we can achieve. In attempting to improve our life and that of our family we have the right to withdraw our Labor within the guidelines of the law. This is a right under all Laws within Europe.

It appears to me that the Pilots based in Lisbon have very ligitimate reasons to strike, they have been coersed into signing an entirely unfair contract, that does not meet company standard.

For better paid colleagues to come in from another base to break the strike is unforgivable. It is equivalent to stealing from your own family.

I know that you talk about supply and demand and I am not a socialist but pure capitalism in it's extreme gives all the money to very few people and leaves everybody else without. We are entitled to use our power to strike as a means to maintain the balance.

Ummm, those that will get called off standby on Christmas morning, to position to Lisbon to operate earlies on Boxing Day are selfish?

Really?? :ugh:

The company don't care, as long as the flights still go. So why should UK pilots pay the price, and be demonised at the same time?

Xulu - UK pilots are obligued to 'pay the price' as we are constrained by our contracts and UK law regardless of our views on the strike action. To refuse would render us liable to breaking our contracts and therefore in jeopardy of disciplinary action.

What a wonderful Christmas present you guys are prepared to give your Lisbon based colleagues (who are sticking their necks out far further than the English guys dare), break their ligitimate industrial action.

I personally believe that to do that would be beneath contempt, but look after no.1, I know.....:D

kunfu panda - companies are here for the benefit of shareholders not pilots. The closeure of MAD was purley a commercial decision. Noone was offerred a 'take it or leave it' offer to move to LIS. When MAD was closed they were offerred choices of bases in the network and I understand a very satisfactory financial package. I don't know how many if any opted for LIS.

Of course we all have the right to negotiate our terms and conditions and, within the law take industrial action. No one was 'coersed' into signing 'an entirely unfair contract' they knew exactly what the contract was and they took it, if they want to renegotiate their contract that is up to them. Whether either side has broken the terms of their contract has yet to be established. As for colleagues to be accussed of strike breaking is unfair as we are constrained by our contracts. If the company ask us to fly we are obligued to comply as, I believe, we are not permitted (under UK law) to take secondary action in support of the LIS pilots. As an employee my loyalties are split between my company and my colleagues and indeed the passengers who untimately pay my wages. I have been in the company a long time and as far as employers go I have found easyJet to be very fair.

Whether you believe any contract is good or bad is subjective as it takes so many personal factors into account. Objectively this contract is generally considered poor in relation to the other easyJet contracts however regarding the industry as a whole none of us are badly paid.

Stiglet, I would hope that companies work as a result of cooperation between employee's and shareholders, collective bargaining allows a fair balance to be found between profitability and remuneration; provided that it is done responsibly.

As I acknowledged in my first post, I know nothing about Easyjet or the closure of the base in Madrid. I made an assumption which may well have been wrong.

I do however believe that Pilots generally are excessively reasonable with Managements who stop at nothing to push terms and conditions down "in the race to the bottom". When a group of Pilots reach the point where they really feel they need to take industrial action, then in all probability it is because nothing else has worked.

You are correct- "whether any contract is good or bad is subjective" therefore as a colleague of the Lisbon Pilots you should accept their point of view and acknowledge their right to strike without the intention to interfere with that strike.

By the way your view of secondary action is skewed, if the Lisbon Pilots travelled to England to prevent you from flying out of London then that would be secondary action. In fact, what you and your English colleagues are planning to do is to travel to Lisbon and fly the Aircraft normally flown by the Lisbon based guys..... if you refused to do it, that would not be secondary action in the same way that one person working in one factory would not be carrying out secondary action if he refused to travel to a striking factory to operate the equipment of the striking factory.

I do believe that travelling to Lisbon to operate the aircraft that your striking colleagues normally operate is beneath contempt.

I'm certain BALPA will have a view on the situation.

However, has anyone checked to see what the legal stance is when considering the following:

LIS based pilots are, presumably, on contracts that are water tight under Portuguese law and English EasyJet pilots are, presumably, on water tight UK contracts.

Would a UK based pilot be taking secondary action if asked to break a Portuguese contract based strike?

I'm certain that easyJet contracts will contain a stipulation that the company "reserves the right to make a pilot work at other network bases" (or such).

However, whether or not they can compel you to break a strike, in a foreign land, may be a point worth asking before accepting or declining such a Christmas morning offer.

kungfu panda - I do accept they have a view and I do acknowledge their right to choose to strike if they wish. Where we differ is on what action I, or other easyJet pilots not based in LIS and not on LIS contracts, can and cannot take. You obviously feel we have a duty to support our colleagues in LIS. That may be so, however legally we cannot. I'm sure the company will be considering their legal position before rostering us to fly.

As for travelling to LIS to operate the flights; it is my earnest wish that it does not come to that. I have no desire to be involved in a dispute between my company and a group of pilots from another base on another contract. To say that to operate the aircraft would be 'beneath contempt' is unfair as not to do so could render me in breach of my contract and therefore vulnerable to dismissal. Who would you expect to support me, the LIS pilots? I think not.

What is the view of BALPA and the company Reps with regard to its members being asked to fly the aircraft normally operated by the lisbon based Pilots?

easyJet Lisbon pilots announcing 5 days of strike
 

If you were an easyjet pilot and a member you would have received a newsletter a few days ago from the CC.

Gorter thanks for your sarcasm but this is a public thread. I was asking generally what the view of BALPA is with the regard to the strike in Lisbon, I am not asking for any confidential information.

A number of pilots took contracts at Lisbon to jump the Command queue leaving guys who would not settle for inferior contracts in the right hand seat . Now they've got what they wanted , they're claiming unfair treatment by the company !

If you're willing to sell your soul , you have to live with the consequences ........

That is not what happens.

UK pilots have to take empty UK based aircraft and operate them in Lisbon. If they are contractually obliged to do so and they refuse, they can be dismissed. Meanwhile the striking pilots are protected by their local laws.

There is more to this, of course, but that has been communicated to the UK pilots directly by BALPA.

OK, so I understand the Captains in Lisbon accepted a lower cost command, and now they are striking to bring their contract back to the company standard. The Pilots in the UK are saying "well you accepted the command with the lower remuneration therefore you should live by the sword and die by the sword".

Wonderful! now the company has achieved exactly what it wants, it has successfully "divided and conquered", that now opens the door to more and more out of seniority, lower cost bases.

I genuinely think that breaking your colleagues and friends strike in Lisbon will seriously backfire on all of you, you will all relinquish the only real power of collective bargaining which you have, Fools!!

So, if i understand this argument correctly, some legal strikers(protected by law)/strike supporters are suggesting that some non-strikers (not protected by law) should put themselves in a position of refusing a legitimate instruction (in law) by the company, which has the sanction of dismissal (in law). At some stage the strike ends with victory or otherwise. Some pilots (protected by law) go back to work, while the non-strikers don't go back to work, because they have been legally sacked. Seems like a reasonable request to the non-strikers from the strikers (not) ?

As I have said previously, any Pilot who travels from the UK to operate aircraft out of Lisbon which are normally operated by Lisbon based Pilots in a direct effort to break the strike of their colleagues should be considered as Beneath contempt.

It is clear that there is no such thing as CRM or teamwork in Easy...

You don't get it do you Kung Fu, no one wants to go from the UK, but if they refuse the company order to go, they will be fired simples. The UK union cannot intervene as secondary industrial action is illegal under UK law.

kung fu panda wrote: Kung fu - thought I'd copy this because when you read it and realise what a complete prat you are, you'll want to delete this most ill-informed post!

Refusal to accept reality/ failure to react to changing parameters/mindset . . . . call it what you will, but it has been a factor I believe in several approach phase accidents in recent years, not to mention AF over the pond.

If I believe hard enough all is well it will be, I don't have to react to changed circumstances & the fact it isn't well.

kungfu panda , I hope the stubborn refusal to accept reality you display here, is not a trait you take with you when you go to work. :=

Good afternoon Captplay......

I will not change mindset but maybe a change of tone is required.

My view is that in the UK during the 60's and 70's the Unions had too much power, they had control of the Labour party and almost bankrupted the country. Only an IMF bailout prevented that from happening. The Thatcher government stood up to the Unions and defeated them, they changed Laws crippling their power. This was attempt re-dress the balance that had gone to an extreme. Unfortunately in an effort to re-dress the balance we have now gone to the other extreme where employees in the UK have very little power to collectively bargain.

Unfortunately unscrupulous Managements are using this extreme of power which they have obtained in the UK (and Ireland) to dictate terms to employees throughout the EU. This has to be considered unacceptable and the full support of all Pilots should go to those prepared to stand up to these people. Currently those Pilots are the Easyjet Lisbon based crews.

I am 100% in agreement with your summary, and conclusion.

Regretably "the full support" of the UK pilots is completely neutered by that same legislation you (we ) are against.

That ,unfortunately, is the fact of the matter, and it is difficult, nay impossible, for a UK employee to contribute much "meaningful" support.

Frustratingly you maybe right.

I am not sure if refusal to travel from your factory in the UK to operate equipment in a factory in Portugal would be considered secondary action?

kungfu panda - I don't think you understand the setup with easyJet. There is easyJet and easySwizz. At present we operate different nationally registered a/c under different AOC's; we cannot fly each others a/c and we cannot operate together. We have different contracts. However we would refer to ourselves as colleagues.

Within easyJet we operate UK registered a/c from a number of different EU countries. We all fly the same a/c, we train together and we can fly together, however we have different contracts (different pay, leave, days off, pensions etc). We are all free to request base transfers and when we move we go onto the local contract irrespective of our nationality. When FO's come up for their command the base on offer may not be the same depending on the vacancy; it is up to them to accept the command and move or remain as an FO at their base of choice. Some bases are considered to have superior T&C; untimately it is the whole package (permanent contract, command, location) and so the decision is very subjective. easyJet would prefer to promote from within so when LIS was started those FO's coming up for command were offerred the command in LIS or to remain as FO's at their base until the next command vacancies arose. The local contracts on offer were lower than all the other contracts (a point well discussed on other topics on this forum). Some FO's chose not to accept the promotion and wait for the command at whatever base came up next, normally LGW, others chose the promotion at LIS; hence the view that some jumped the command list. As there were insufficient volunteers their were also direct entry fixed term contracts at LIS.

The base is now permanent so new/ammended contracts are being negotiated. Some of those commands want to transfer to other bases while the FO's who opted not to take the command may still be FO's; the fixed term contracts want a straight transition to permanent contracts without going though another interview, there may be other issues.

That brings us to where we are now. Whatever the situation in LIS as to the rights or wrongs of the pilots or company is not yet clearly understood by most of us on this forum. You are advocating we should support the strike of our colleagues in LIS purley because we are pilots, irrespetive of the law and our contracts or who is right or wrong. It has been clearly explained to you that we cannot refuse duties without jeopardising our positions. Some of us are uncomfortable at the prospect of operating whilst the LIS pilots are on strike and others are sympathetic but are objecting to the dates as it will interfer with their Christmas. So you see this is not as straightforward as you seem to think.

kungfu panda - some of us in the UK are happy with the status quo we have now and we see the unions on the continent as having too much power. It is of note that most who are objecting to our lack of action in this matter are not UK based. Perhaps somewhere inbetween would be ideal but we are where we are today with what we can do.

Thanks Stiglet, I appreciate your thorough and clear explanation.:ok: