I don't believe the issue about contract pilots is that they are not as able pilots, it is more about the forever degrading condition, which have been seen over the industry, and those jobs the P2F brigade are dreaming of after they finish their P2F, they are not there anymore! As there are loads of guys who have NOT done P2F, with more experience, and still not getting a look in at the good jobs, so think about that, before you let yourself into more debts!

It's tempting but also very counter - productive!

the P2F thing has now got momentum, its got legs . it will not stop until 150++ innocent people eventually die a horrible death due to the actions of a P2F 'pilot'..then the media will have a field day on the whole P2F rubbish . then the regulators will finally be forced to do something.

sad but imho true.:mad:

Camel:
Again, that is not the real issue, nobody is saying that P2F pilot's are less able pilots! Some might be, but that for me is not a very strong argument against P2F!
Than again, I guess making arguments is not always about being smart! :ugh:

Airbus a321

eh...

:D

You are right. Contract work sucks. People need real and stable employment to be able to live a normal life. That's why I think the use of contract workers should be much more limited. At the moment the airlines are abusing the system and avoiding hiring anyone permanently at all cost.

so you reckon paying the likes of eJ or FR 100k and giving up 30k a year in salary is acceptable to do a bit of hobby flying untill they find a cheaper bunch to replace you with?

The beancounters at the locos love guys like you, pay them to fly and train with pax on board and give up 30% in pay to do so, an accountants wet dream.

There are hundreds of posts on these forums of LHS drivers complaining how crap and incompetent the P2F bunch are, but of course you can't see that, you are the problem, not part of the solution.

there is hardly any P2F out there anyways, what are we all worried about.

I am supportive of P2F as it creates extra work and reveune streams for TRI/TRE which is good for me

POS_INT needs to get his head out of the sand and do his homework. Lion Air with the assistance of Falcon Aviation and Eagle Aviation have been a major supplier of P2Fers.

There's always work for reputable TRIs and TREs at reputable carriers.

"reveune streams for TRI/TRE which is good for me" - POS_INT

Yes the truth out of the bag, it's all about me, me and me! :ugh:

The one day, they will not need TRI/TRE, as they will have drone pilot sitting in an office in India on minimum pay!

When it comes to DEC with a sizeable carrier, the company will have an agreement with its pilots' association or union to protect the futures of its own first officers. This is usually achieved by setting the bar quite high for DEC, type rated may require double the hours a senior FO would need to upgrade and non-type rated will require even more as they are getting a type rating and will possibly be bonded too.

The same way we all did when jobs were "hard" to find, get off your arse, your computer, and go and find one!

here's one way you could solve the problem. This industry tolerates an awful lot of people who aren't really very good at their jobs. Some TRE's and flight schools are very reluctant to fail people for poor performance. What should happen is that the crap ones fail, get some retraining, and if they fail again they are out. What actually happens is that everyone turns a blind eye! If the standard was raised and a few people moved on, the best of the newbies would have jobs to move into. At the moment there will be some exceptional new pilots out there who are totally unable to commence their careers and that is bad for the industry.

Hopelessly out of touch most of you. The choices for those entering this industry who want to fly for an airline are:

1.) To get raped by Big School Inc by paying €85,000 (€120,000+ after interest) for ab-initio training and then through the Big School Inc connections hopefully get a job (most do)

2.) Go modular paying in the region of €40-50,000 and then SSTR + hours

Option 1 doesn't work for those with family/financial commitments because they can't train part time or can't provide the loan security.

Option 2 exists to make it a level playing field as those who go for Option 1 get first shot at most job opportunities with the big airlines.

And I second the comment above. This industry is full of talentless super-ego maniacs who are only in their position because of nepotism or connections. This is as big a cancer in aviation so don't talk about P2Fers not "deserving a flying job"! Most P2F guys have endured years of suffering before making the move. It's not as black and white as you might think. To let opportunity after opportunity go and see the situation get worse and to not have a single interview opportunity for almost 4 years after graduating results in drastic and desperate measures.

We're not all spoilt little brats with daddy's cash to spend. This is a fantasy that those of you who can't afford to P2F would love to believe. I, like most committed pilots worked my ass off to get to where I am and the only way that was possible was to do something someone else wasn't prepared to do. That is the reality of life my friends and this is coming from someone who used to lecture others about the evils of P2F.

And now you will be lectured and indeed spat on by those who do care for this profession and who manage to look further than their own nose.
"superpilot" you are not. change your name into SuperSpender, Supercheater or Superidiot. it is way more appropriate.
Out of touch?! Grow some brain, but I should really not blame you, I should blame the flight academies that nowadays accept any fool to become an Airline pilot without the traditional hard selection phases:mad: That is the cause why we have so many unfit miscreants flooding the market:ugh::ugh::mad:

I wholly agree with Superpilot and I think P2F is very unfortunate for all involved but it is a fact of life now and the only way into the industry for many.

Not an airline pilot myself, (just about to start work offshore RW after the mil) but I have many friends who are in airlines. I found it gobsmacking how many of my buddies colleagues could not get any flying work after their IR and I find it hard to blame any of them for trying their best to get on in a terminally depressed market. In their shoes, I am sure I would do exactly the same.

I only hope the RW world does not go down the same P2F model as FW, although the perceived relative lack of glamour probably serves to deter the majority from offshore etc....

I think what some fail to understand here, management in various companies are using P2F - as part of their income revenue, when planning their companies business budget/structure!

This means X amounts of jobs that would normally be available for FO's, are no longer available, as they are no longer jobs!

So if there in 2013 as an example was 1000 pilot jobs available, maybe of these there would be 100 new jobs due to retirement/medical failures etc., so all of US would be applying for those 100 jobs, however now with P2F, 20 of those jobs are no longer available, as these are going to P2F!

This means there are only 80 jobs left, so few jobs, the ones who did P2F, will stop at 500 hours / 300 hours, the ones in job will be getting more hours, but there will be fewer jobs to apply for, unless you want to keep paying, but that is not work anymore!

Found on job ad for Korean Airlines:
:eek: Is this the ultimate example of P2F?

We should go back to state schools, increasing the difficulty level of the ATPL theory, getting rid of this ridiculous question bank, and most of all, introduce a good selection before admission with aso called numerus clausus. Decimate the intake of ab initio students and you will see terms and conditions increase.

Perhaps a closer look at the Kos incident again is in order, as to me this really did demonstrate the wider issues somewhat succinctly.

What would have happened if the LHS had become incapacitated?

It is a scary thought.

Icelanta, learn some manners my friend. Before I could pay to fly, I had to work (hard) in another industry to earn because the money didn't come from thin air. Neither you or I invented the rules. I couldn't beat the idiots so I had to join them. The difference is I'm man enough to admit it. An unfortunate means to an end. Darwinism and all that.