In the opinion of my peer group and fortunately of my airline it clearly shows extremely poor risk evaluation and very poor judgement. In fact any pilot doing it is deemed unemployable and a complaint to the relevant authority will be made. Someone who cannot correctly evaluate the financial risk of buying linetraining with a shadowy third tier carrier cannot be trusted with an aircraft, its crew and paying passengers.

Gear & flap will kill you, everything else will embarase you.

it is near imposiible for any pilot to make it to line if they are not of the highest quality and order. I stand to be corrected on that statement.

Lion Air Flight 8987, a McDonnell Douglas MD-82, crashed after landing at Juanda International Airport. Reverse thrust was used during landing, although the left thrust reverser was stated to be out of service. This caused the aircraft to veer to the right and skid off the runway, coming to rest about 7,000 feet (2,100 m) from the approach end of the runway. No-one was killed but the aircraft was badly damaged.

Lion Air Flight 792, a Boeing 737-400, landed with an incorrect flap configuration and was not aligned with the runway. The plane landed hard and skidded along the runway causing the right main landing gear to detach, the left gear to protrude through the wing and some of the aircraft fuselage to be wrinkled. No one was killed and the aircraft was written off.

Lion Air Flight 712, a Boeing 737-400 (registration PK-LIQ) overran the runway on landing at Supadio Airport, Pontianak, coming to rest on its belly and sustaining damage to its nose gear. All 174 passengers and crew evacuated by the emergency slides, with few injuries reported.

Adam Air Flight 782, registration number PK-KKE, lost navigational and communications systems twenty minutes into a flight from Jakarta to Makassar, Sulawesi. The plane was subsequently flown into a radar "black spot" and was lost for several hours, eventually making an emergency landing at Tambolaka Airport, Sumba (on a different island 481 km away from their intended destination, and southeast from their origin, instead of northeast). The pilot in that incident was fired. Adam Air broke multiple safety regulations, including removing an aircraft before it was due for inspection by aviation authorities.


On January 1, 2007, air traffic controllers lost contact with flight 574 en route from Surabaya (SUB) to Manado (MDC). The aircraft, a Boeing 737-400 with the registration PK-KKW, had 96 passengers and 6 crew. On January 10, parts of the aircraft's tail stabilizer were found 300m offshore.
The flight recorders and suspected debris were located, but were not initially recovered due to a dispute between Adam Air and the Indonesian Government over who should pay recovery costs.[11] Both recorders were retrieved after Adam Air agreed to pay for 7 days worth of searching. A 2009 episode of Mayday (Air Crash Investigation, Air Emergency) about Flight 574 stated that the official crash report had concluded the Inertial Reference System (IRS) had failed. This failure, which should not by itself have brought the plane down, caused the pilots to become preoccupied with trying to fix it. After changing the IRS from "Navigate" mode to "Attitude" mode, the pilots failed to manually fly the plane while the computer system recalibrated, a procedure that takes about 30 seconds. The failure to maintain straight and level flight during the recalibration caused the autopilot to completely disengage and cease compensating for the plane's tendency to roll to the right, which caused the nose of the plane to dip. In attempting to correct the pitch of the aircraft before levelling the wings, the pilot sent the aircraft into an unrecoverable downward spiral, leading to the plane suffering massive structural failure as it descended at near the speed of sound.


On February 21, 2007 Flight 172, an Adam Air Boeing 737-300 aircraft flying from Jakarta to Surabaya with registration PK-KKV, had a hard landing at Juanda International Airport. The incident caused the fuselage of the plane to crack and bend at the middle, with the tail of the plane drooping towards the ground. There were no reports of serious injuries from the incident. Subsequent flights to the airport were diverted to alternate airports. As a result, six Adam Air 737s were grounded awaiting safety checks, but five of these were then put back in regular service. Adam Air described this as "harsh punishment" for an accident it blamed on poor weather conditions, but Vice President Jusuf Kalla has said that all Boeing 737-300s should be checked.


On March 10, 2008, an Adam Air Boeing 737-400 aircraft flying from Jakarta to Batam skidded 75 metres off the end of the runway while landing in Batam. All passengers survived, with two passengers treated for shock. The plane sustained damage to one wing.[14][15] This accident contributed to the airline's demise, just eight days later, and the formal revocation of its AOC two months later. The incident also illustrated that crew were not trained correctly on evacuation procedures. In particular during the evacuation of this aircraft no slides were deployed to get the passengers off the aircraft.


Consider yourself corrected.

Maybe the airline industry is finally realizing that 200 hrs dual in a Cessna, plus a 10 session type rating, followed by three thousand hours following a magenta line, is not the experience what they were looking for in the first place.

A321,
If you cant get invited with that experience then it may be time to look elsewhere than your city airline...
Have you applied to Asian carriers?

@ Sloppy Joe

very nice long list of P2F accidents, thank you for taking the time to do that.

I can only talk speak from airlines that I have worked for and the standard is very high, if the TRE at Lion/Adam air is just letting pilots go on line willy nilly then of course this is a bad idea.

on the flip side of the coin you could argue that there have been a few experinced pilots whom have made just as bad mistakes, look at AF447

Not P2F accidents just an insight into that part of the world and the quality of some of the pilots showing that you don't have to be good to get into a front seat.

AF447 there was alomst 20,000 hours flight experince between the 3 crew

I am guilty of working in Asia when I was building my career, but the standard was always very high, so I am guessing things have changed.

very bad news that the TRE's are not taking there jobs seriously in that part of the world. makes me angry when the rest of us have to keep such a high standard to stay in our jobs. not that there is anything wrong with keeping a high standard.

POS_INT

You don't understand it though do you.......?

You're not going to keep your job at all if people like you, or anyone else, pays to fly commercial aircraft around the sky with passengers in the back. When you do that, its not a job, its a hobby. By all means, take your hobby seriously, but just change your hobby from paying to fly jets around the sky!

Jeez, airline management saw you coming didn't they........ :rolleyes:

last time I checked I was paid to fly the aircraft not the other way round, anyway enough about me, thats not whats being disscused here.

listen up, there is nothing wrong with pilots buying in to airlines, what is the big problem for you?

these chaps need the experince, and if you actually went out and networked with these guys you would have a better understanding of it.

you are one of these gready pilots that only cares about himself, and wants no one else to enter the inner circle of commercial airlines. well the world does not revolve around you my freind and you need to learn that things wont always go your way :D you need to encourage and support EVERYONE in aviation, whats being said here is quite childish.

the line training that does take place is such a small number it does not affect anything! there are no notices going up around major airlines saying pay has been dropped due to 3 or 4 pilots under taking line training come man!!

Decision making
 

It's indicative of the aviation industry that experience is over looked for cheap labour whilst at the same time safety groups are bemoaning the lack of handling skills and experience in the cockpit.

One aspect that causes me increasing concern is the character of pilots taking such debilitating terms and conditions. Commercial pressures are always going to seep down the line and be applied to flightcrew. It's our responsibility to be the last line of defence between the pressure and temptation operations departments are subject to and the safe execution of the flight. Operations departments have their pressures; we have ours. I have reservations about the motivation and ability of the P2F pilot to stand up to such pressure. They've already capitulated and would economically be in a vulnerable position. The astronomical levels of investment are creating a docile flight deck increasingly unable to withstand commercial pressure. I can only see this situation deteriorating as P2F flightcrew move up the ranks.

One of the basic tenants of the air operator structure is the isolation of the flight crew from anything but safety concerns. Whilst we all experience varying shades of grey in our work and there is certainly room for 'commercial airmanship' where we do all we can to assist the profitability of our employer within the bounds of safety; there will be times when we get isolated and have to make critical safety decisions.

I hope I have conveyed myself correctly. I don't judge pilots who pay to fly - maybe you've hit the ceiling with 5000 hours of TP and can't make the jump to a more sustainable career path; maybe you're fresh out of school and your aspirations are clouding the council of experienced pilots. Whichever it is, the financial debt entailed in P2F doesn't bode well for being the last line of safety.

To the OP, best of luck.

Can't blame the airline for the P2F schemes. It puts more money in the bank for the company and bonuses for the executives. However their greed is clouded by the importance of the safety of operation. 2 fully qualified crewmembers in the front. Not the Captain who is becoming a baby sitter and the wannabe in the right seat who'se along for the ride.

P2F schemes undermines the ethics of our industry. P2F schemes undermines safety of operation. P2F schemes continue to lower the bar. P2F schemes erodes respect and integrity.

I'm all for training bonds. Pilot does not complete his/her obligation, then a prorated amount is paid to the company. No repayment? No release of records to next carrier.

Bottom line, IMO, there is no place for P2Fers in our industry.

Well, the company I WORK for refuses to hire anybody with a P2F history:ok:
Bad decisionmaking, lack of long-term view and maturity and a simple disregard for the value and responsability of being an Airline pilot are but some of the reasons why.:D:D

Icelanta

makes sense :rolleyes:... "real pilots" are given jobs because of their Top Gun quality... fake pilots just pay with their credit card and are instantly put on the line with a baby sitter...

:ugh:

P2F is becoming more and more the normal way how to get in to this industry. It is not a shortcut like a lot of people seems to be thinking.

Yes it is ruining the chances for us established pilots to find employment but we what have to be real about it. The conditions I got hired under is something the young pilots at my local flying club can only dream of. They have no TR, no time on time, no experience. Even a personal recommendation would not help them. They are just an expense for the company. So I don't blame pilots who do P2F programs. How else are they gonna get the experience?

There are just to many pilots out there looking for a job :sad:

Wesker seems to think I'll bet all the P2Fers will agree with you. And I'll bet the majority of us who ascended through the ranks via normal professional prgression would disagree with you.

Wesler, your opinion is an insult to all PROFESSIONAL Flightcrew Worldwide :mad:

P2F pilots should be banished from the flightdeck, Captains should refuse to operate with a paying passenger in the First Officer seat, and airlines should be blacklisted.

I totally agree with you. In my opinion P2F should be banned by changes in ICAO/local regulations. Simple as that. No self sponsored training with paying passengers on board and no flying without normal salary. Much more strict regulations on the use of contract workers would also be welcomed...

:ok:

wesker
 

:mad: Stay in your Ivory-Tower. You must be "blind" and quixotic.
Pray to g0d or someone else that you will never have to earn your money as just a "contract-pilot".
Maybe - no - for shure - you are too $tupid to realize, but working as a contract-pilots is in very seldom cases your own choice, but an urgent must to survive and to buy food for family and kids. And believe me and be aware that almost all of the contract-pilots had a good and a stable job before - maybe like you have at this moment - . But they were victims of e.g. incomepetent airline "managers", the downturn and economical crisis and also P2F pilots, who fill any seat, for less money.

Never saw such an arrogant,naughty statement ever in all my life.

I do not appologize for getting personal - and for shure I did not understand you statement wrong, because it was really very clear to me,:mad:

I am so angry about our post, and although I have a very good education I could not resist to do this post.
Feel a$.hame WESKER :\

:ugh:Guys come on lets get real here! your letting your frustration colour your perceptions on P2F

Just beacuase someone has been on a P2F scheme doesnt instantly make them a bad pilot.

take yourself, if you were forced to P2F for whatever reason would you instantly brand yourself as someone who cannot fly?

if you are accepted for a P2F scheme it is no different to a new pilot comming in from other avenues ie instructing etc.

so you are wrong to say that P2F pilots are bad pilots, there are some that could be even better than you! :D

I say we all encourage saftey in aviation! no matter how you got there! conflicts of interest on how you got to where you are today have no place in the cockpit