eJ doesn't care, hundreds of others willing to pay for the privilege. FO's have become a cheap commodity and a tool to reduce the T&C's of the guys and galls in the LHS.

Was your FO mate surprised that permanent contracts are now lower than they were a few years ago?

This will nbe a continuing trend as cldrvr's alluded to.

"Ryanair is worse but as I understand the take home pay isn't terrible (don't quote me)."

And there in lies a rub: For far too long, glossy eyed wannabees have looked at SALARY ALONE as a marker.

I am in the fortunate position that:

1) I have never paid for ratings;

2) I graduated in 2000;

3) I am now a Captain and;

4) I am no longer in airlines, but in the best side of corporate flying.

However, consider this. I recently saw a friend of mine who works for Ryanair. He has been there 11 or so years, Ryanair employee, LTC at a main base.

He earned £119,000 last year for 900 hours of constant stress and hassle, plus unpaid duties. There is absolutely no healthcare, loss of licence, death in service or very importantly pension.

I worked 350 hours last year and earned £123,240. Plus 15% employer pension contributions and a full package of benefits. We had to push our employer to give us a really good package, but they did because they realise we are key to keeping people safe and doing a good job when called upon to do so. That package is all worth at least £30,000 on top of the BASIC....

It is such a shame that we seem to be blinded by bare numbers, salary or hourly rates - call it what you will.

The career (if it can be called that) used to be a senior role and respected as such. Now, it seems to be a self fulfilling prophecy that we are going to cannibalise ourselves in the race to the bottom.

It always used to be a long term game, involving perhaps 20 years to Command in good airlines. Now, it is a headlong rush to becoming an FO on an A320 with 200 hours, with a Command at exactly 3000 hours.

Sod the future, as long as I have 4 bars and can drive a Porsche to work. I don't need a pension.......

.......that's the future - and the quality of the decision making we are recruiting into the business. It makes me very, very concerned.

Narrow Runway, great post! Where can I and my 2500 colleagues apply?

I have 4 bars and am a captain at eJ, wish I drove a Porsche to work.....

So whats the situation now. Are guys signing up for this permanent contratct? What is BALPA's stance?

Beaufort Potato Man + Penko
 

BPM: I bet you drive a 10 year old vintage Ford, like I do :-)

Penko: Miraculously, I saw this job on Flight Global quite a while ago. Keep your eyes peeled. Amongst the sh1te is the rare gem.

After 5 months of waiting I received an email response from the CAA:

"The safety of all UK operators is taken very seriously by the CAA, and we have worked with industry to ensure that operators properly manage the use of contract pilots.

The safety performance of crew must be assured by the operators, and is closely monitored by the CAA as part of their oversight programmes. This applies whether a pilot is employed on a contract, as a direct entry type rated pilot or as a graduate of an Approved Training Organisation (ATO).

UK operator's Flight Time Limitations (FTL) schemes, are approved by the CAA and the monitoring of crew fatigue reporting trends also forms part of the CAA's routine oversight. As you may be aware, EASA-wide regulations on FTL are currently being developed. We are very much aware of the FAA’s new rules which, although they differ from EASA’s proposals on certain aspects, both have a similar approach, are based on scientific data, and achieve comparable levels of protection."

Just wondering what the "similar approach" was between FAA and EASA rules???
FAA decreasing FTL and EASA increasing!

The main crux of my email to them was why are we happy to continue with flexicrew/p2f when the FAA are increasing their ATP requirements to 1500 hours, with a little FTL thrown in.

That is the very same response they gave to CHIRP.

You're all wasting your breath. There is only one thing companies take notice of, and that is people making a stance by using their feet. Either stamping them hard or walking away.

When people start leaving or striking and they can't meet the schedule they will change. In the mean time business as usual.

The other thing is people aren't prepared to wait. I want to be an airline pilot and I want it now. They throw cash in huge sums at a problem and think it will open doors, but market forces or greater than any one individual.
Me, I went a modular route and bided my time. Still made a few wrong decisions, but now home, happy and left seat.

Obviously the company line. They must have had a lot of inquiries about flexicrew and P2F.
When I didn't get a response for 5 months I emailed CHIRP with a copy of the email I sent to the CAA. They took it much more seriously and are including it in other emails which are to be included in a report at the Air Transport Advisory Board. It seems representatives at CHIRP have much higher regard for the safety of our industry.

The CAA couldn't really give a toss. There is no similar approach, the FAA have stamped it out, the CAA have not. That's chalk & cheese in my book.

Also, based on that emailed response, nothing will change because ASR levels have not increased. The only difference now is that instead of having a nice day out, the skippers workloads have increased which is keeping the said ASR levels where they are. Does this make the flightdeck a safe environment? What do I know.

As has been said before our regulator regulates the very companies that maintain it's existence through licensing and other fees. Aviation isn't the only British industry to suffer from this fate but there you go, capitalism at it's finest. The same thing happens in the third world but we have a different name for the practice :rolleyes:

Guys,

I'm glad I found this thread and have read it through.

My current situation is I am 33 and have wanted to be a pilot for years but without the cash to pay for it. I now have a successful business and there is an option to sell up to follow my dream.

I recently found the CTC programmes and have been in touch with them regarding their Cadet route. Now, reading this thread seems to shed light on a totally different side of these courses to what they make you think.

I was originally told, a few years ago (I think by someone at Oxford) that airlines prefer integrated pilots over modular and to be honest, I believed this.

I'm very lucky to live within 5 minutes of Staverton (Gloucestershire) Airport which is one of the top, GA airports in England and has some good schools.


So my question would be aimed more to experienced pilots, how many of you came through the modular route? Can anyone 'speak' for their airline on what they prefer in the way of training routes? It would certainly be much cheaper to go modular.

I really don't like what I'm reading about the EJ cadet route and with one young child, and another on the way, the loan repayments now look like they would be an issue. The EJ website makes it all look very nice and well rewarded but now I'm really not sure.

This whole thread has been an eye opener...

Traditionally people used to do their PPL, Flying Instructors Rating, or was it AFI first, spent years as an instructor and then CPL, fly turbo props and finally get in a Jet.

It used to take years, with long hours and low pay. But now there is the option of walking off the street and, eventually, into the flight deck of an Airbus.

Do people expect not to pay for that? So many moan and groan about the cost and the loan repayments. Do you really expect it for free? Can anyone of the old school estimate the cost of the traditional route before this 100K route came along?

Nobody holds a gun to anyones head on this. ALL airlines do it, not just EJ.

I'm not saying its right or that the costs are reasonable and representative but at the end of 5-7 years whatever it is, you have a lot of experience in a jet cockpit. I suspect it is the same time period and cost of the traditional route!!

Birdman look under the other threads like the wannabes I presently work for the Orange Airline Most days I listen to the fo telling how desperate they are no money sleeping on friends floors some have gone bankrupt. If you would like to pm I will give you as much advise as I can. Unbiased just facts

Thanks.

I've looked through a lot of threads but this one really made me think is it really worth the risk? I deliberately Googled for PPrune EasyJet as I knew I'd find good honest info here.

The schools make it sound like they are the only way you'll get a job in Aviation and I was being sucked that way slightly.

Even if I sold my business, there would be living costs both for myself and my partner and kids so we'd still be borrowing money to do this. My business sale, if achieved, wouldn't cover the cost of the training.

To be honest, I wouldn't mind who I worked for to an extent, I just want to fly, it's what's love doing.

Now I have a response from my local MP! He sent me the letter he received from the minister for transport and guess what, it was an exact copy of the "party line" I got from the CAA!

"The safety performance of crew must be assured by the operators, and is closely monitored by the CAA as part of their oversight programmes. This applies whether a pilot is employed on a contract, as a direct entry type rated pilot or as a graduate of an Approved Training Organisation (ATO)."

He'd obviously just passed my concerns straight to the CAA for their response. Complete cop out

Kick the tires
 

As one of the old sods who got my ATPL the old way I will take a guess at a total cost of around £30k at 1985 prices.

The great advantage of the old system was that you could hold down a job while doing the training and you had 700 hours of flying behind you when you got to the airliner cockpit.

With my usual sense of timing my CPL/IR was issued on the day Air Europe went bust ! But having a full time job just resulted in me continuing to instruct part time at a flying club until an airline job showed up two years later.

Also I have five airliner type ratings that I never paid a penny for but the airline did require a two year training bond for these type ratings. At the time a lot of plots considered training bonds to be the work of the devil and an illegal restraint of trade, I bet the guys working for flexicrew would bite my hand off for such a deal !

As I was finishing off the CPL the writing was already on the wall for the free type rating with the training bond as a few of the rich kids passing through the system where already offering to buy a type rating in exchange for a job, as you all now know to your considerable cost it did not take very long for the bean counters to get wise to the money that could be made from the rich kids parents.

Birdman, after 45 years in the aviation business I hope I can pass on some thoughts. Both my sons expressed some interest in commercial aviation, but nowadays, I am so pleased that they decided not to go down that route. It is vital with your responsibilities that you explore all the avenues open to you but really understand what you are getting into. Do you want to fly or do you want to fly commercially - there is a difference. If the former, with a successful business, and living close to Staverton, a beautiful area, possibly a PPL and club flying may be a safer option for you

I have never seen commercial aviation as a hobby or fun job, it is an office like any other where you are paid to perform a task for the financial benefit of the employer. If everybody had the same idea the career would be all the better for it.

Now if you want to talk about the best office window, then there is no better worldwide :ok:

As kriskross said there is more fun to be had elsewhere.

Oh dear ! More lambs to the slaughter.

Quite a few have smelled the coffee and elected to pursue their careers outside the orange machine lately. Perhaps that's why another course has been arranged. These wonderful new entrant contracts will lead to B scale commands and a final assault on existing captains. It isn't difficult to work out and it is straight out of the Ryanair guide to shoddy practice. Can't think where they got the idea from :E

I would certainly like to fly commercially, not just for pleasure.

What I'd give though, for the old days when you could pop into the cockpit to see what actually goes on and learn more about the job.

I spoke with Aeros years back and from reading up on them again, maybe their modular route would be the way to go, that way I can still run the business but also see how I feel each stage of the journey. I am sure I'll not wish to stop the training though.

At the moment I take every opportunity I can to fly, from gift vouchers to corporate gliding days and I used to Paraglide.

I think I'll pop and see Aeros but I'm most certainly staying away from CTC and programmes like that now so thank you everyone on this thread for saving me!

Thad
 

You make an interesting point if EZY are having trouble filling training courses then they are the third European airline with this problem starting to emerge.

I am going to take a guess that tis is the reason that RYR hase eased up on the T&C'S for DEC's joining the company.

It is starting to look as if the bean counters enthusiasm for turning the right seat into a revenue stream has resulted in those who have passed the line check not getting much flying ( to enable the sat to be used for P2F ) and so the company's have a glut of low time FO's who can't qualify for upgrade to captain due to the few hours they have been flying.

I shall know when the boot is firmly on the other foot when I hear airline bosses telling the aviation press about those nasty disloyal pilots ! The last time I saw this situation I got a 25% pay rise in one year without any negotiation as the airline attempted to stem the rush for the door.

Good luck, Birdman.

Birdman

With respect, the modular route has slowly died a death over the years. Thanks to P2F, there are many PPL/GA instructors you are stuck and unable to progress their careers.

It will take you at least 2 years to get your CPL/IR and then you would have to apply for an instructor rating. How old are you now?

I'm afraid some rich 22 year old CTC graduate is going to be well favoured over a mid-30s modular route grafter. That's simply the way it is now.

Why would you give up your current business and lifestyle to pursue a dream that may well end up as a nightmare?

There are no guarentees, no matter which route you take.

Right, let's really dispel some myths here because what you're saying is just silly, emotional and sensationalist. I can personally guarantee you that the majority of people doing CTC etc. are not rich - not by a long, long, long way. They may well be reckless, irresponsible and selfish but they aren't rich. Many are from from family homes that have at most a £250-350K house. I hope I'm not being a snob or out of touch with reality but those figures don't make them remotely well off to my mind. I was extremely lucky i.e. through no skill, foresight or design of my own to be have the unsecured loan through CTC and be able to train without one penny of backing from my parents or anyone else. About one year after I started with CTC all unsecured loans were pulled. Whilst doing my MCC/JOC and TR, and also now flying the line I have met tens and even hundreds of people who trained after me and had to take secured loans / 'borrow' from their family.

Personally I would not and morally could not have done what they did. I've met 19 year old state school kids whose parents live in some of the less affluent Northern cities and came across as very 'Down to Earth' when I met them. I met them at Dibden whilst they were having meet and greets and i was doing the advanced training. These people asked me for my opinion on what they were doing - putting their homes - sometimes worth £200K - up as collateral for the training. I obviously declined to comment and advised the ball was in their court. These people make up the majority of the trainees. Because the loan isn't attached to them and as is the nature of youth and pilots they go and get their own finance on cars - which anyone can get - especially people who appear to hold no debt - remember the debt is on their parents homes. i've seen these guys - when they want a holiday or an ipad then mum and dad say, don't worry - have a month off. I don't have that luxury with my loan - It's pay or go into arrears.

There are a few rich people training (nothing like the majority though) - strangely enough some of these are the :mad: that have gone bankrupt and possibly ruined the chance of unsecured borrowing for a course like this in the future. they make me laugh - they have lovely cars, always the latest apple products, the luxury of staying on Flexi until they get what the base, contract they want an sometimes even mortgages. I don't get emotional about them though because that's their life and their families right. I'm learning a great deal from my position - restraint, responsibility and control. i know i'll have paod for and earned everything I have. If i was lucky enough to have my parents pay for it all, would I have done - you're damned skippy I would have. And so would you. So don't be jealous, bitter or a blamer. The stresses, strains and missed youth I have incurred from my debt are a massive hurdle.

We were offered some tasty parting advice by one of the directors after some cock ups - in this industry don't blame and don't complain - you'll spend your life miserable and disliked.


The people who have been instructors for 2-3 years, trained 5 years ago etc do make me laugh - you too could have tried CTC and had an unsecured loan. Why didn't you? Bad research, bad decision making or didn't get in? CTC isn't some superlative training establishment and it's product isn't necessarily the best so please don't think that is my claim. But it did the job for me. I didn't like some of the 'bosses' one bit but......whatever.

My advice?

- Integrated is the emphatic way to go if you decide to train. I don't care what someone who trained 12 years ago says - this is now. I can see why having previously done a PPL. Comparing integrated and modular is like comparing an airline and a small biz jet operator. The airline has strict, monitored SOPs, standardisation, continuity (750+ hours a year) and a wealth of experience. The biz jet operator is a bit suck it and see, make the picture fit and lacking in continuity (300 hours a year max). All of my ex biz jet friends agree having now flown for easyJet.

- I repeat I would not and could not (morally) gamble against my parents home.

- Don't listen to the crap on here. Get off here and never look back on here until you are in an airline or paid flying position.


Disclaimer: I'm not looking down my nose at anyone who has trained modularly, flown biz jets or taken loans against their parents homes. There are pros to taking these routes - you're eventual decision will be a best case average. If you're offered a biz jet position once qualified you'd be mad not to take it.

Whybeflier
 

An interesting post that on the face of it seems to advise the course of action that will result in training company's that take upwards of £110k from a person for a training course with the prospect of a job at the end of the course. then when the trainee has successfully compleated the course draws then into a contract that they know full well will not provide enough money to service the debt. However a second read of the post gives a more balanced view but is supportive of the integrated system despite its dangers.

It is hardly a moral and sustainable way of doing business and fortunately the banks have pulled the unsecured loans as a result of unfortunates who have been forced into personal bankruptcy.

It is the airlines that have seen the right hand seat as a revenue stream that are pushing this integrated training thing because it makes them money, it has nothing to do with the quality of the pilot ( generally those who have done the modular route are slightly better pilots in my experience ). It is all about how to extract the most money from those wishing to join the industry.

The policy to choose to employ those who have been on a company approved integrated course has to be seen in the light of the deal they are offering at the end of the course, a company that is offering real full time employment that gives the new FO a secure future ( as it is in the airline business!) with a realistic chance of servicing the training debt is acting in a reasonable way given the state of the industry, those however who offer a contract that binds you to the airline on a pay only when you fly are only interested in making money from you and are likely to drive you into debt as they sit the next young hopefull in the seat you have just vacated.

To advise people to get off these forums and not come back until they have a flying job is foolish, these forums present an unvarnished view of the industry as apposed to the glossy publicity pushed out by the training industry and are a much needed reality check for those who are about to invest large amounts of cash in their future.

The integrated way might well have been sucsesfull for Whybeflier but before embarking on the integrated course and the debts that go with it you have to be realistic about the way you are going to repay those debts, take a very good look at any contract and be sure that you have a real job at the end of the course, NOT some contract that ties you to an agency that may or may not offer you enough work ensure that you can meet your debts.

If you can point out where I condoned the price tag, the airlines behaviour ( which is deplorable) or being bound to a contract agency I will happily remove those parts or apologise for the statements.

I said if you are going to train - go integrated.

I find this place has as many opinions as there are posters. It makes deciding difficult. The tone is extremely negative (though realistic) however that won't be helpful during training should one decide to go ahead.

My main point was that CTC trainees are not rich kids.

I'll add that if I said what I thought of CTC and some of the 'directors' there I'd probably be banned. It'd be full of 4 letter words. Not nice ones.

From no where we were bent firmly over a barrel.

Perhaps re-read my post then re-read yours.

Whybeflier
 

I have taken a second look at your post and have amended my reply as a more careful re-read indicates that the content and tone are not quite the same.

You are quite correct in pointing out that the CTC cadets are not rich kids......well not at the end of the course!

I am not sure which way to read the bit about being bent over a barrel, but I think you intended to say that you consider the management had a firm grip of your testicles from day one ! Please correct me if I have misinterpreted you.


As you have no doubt I am not a supporter of the way some company's are using the integrated system to in effect bond people by getting them into large amounts of debt and then limiting their income. No one should start a career with the uncertainty of how they are going to service that much debt.

I have no issues with the actual flying training but the quality issues that the integrated training providers use to justify their practices are pure rubbish, the real reason that these people don't like the modular system is that it fails to fit their profit model.

Unfortunately the advantages that those who have had another career and decide to go along the modular route are very difficult to quantify and are unlikely to show until the person is no longer under line training, only when it comes to the command upgrade will the wider aviation education become a real advantage.

over a barrel - Idioms - by the Free Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.

That is what I meant by being bent over a barrel.

To quash another myth - plenty of CTC integrated cadets had previous careers and most are older than 19 - off the top of my head there was a doctor, a lawyer, engineers, estate agents, military officers, police officers, Architects, bankers, sales people, rampys, red caps, IT consultants, Air Traffic Controllers and so on.

I'd say 80% had degrees.

On my course the age range was 22-32.

As I understand it the people who have subsequently joined up, knowing that flexicrew would be the way forward and without unsecured borrowing are generally younger and have a less varied background.

The purpose of my posting really is to cut the emotion from some people's post. Certain 'adjectives' are surplus to requirements.

Anyway, join this at your own risk. You know how it is now. If you do decide to join up remember what CTC took such great pleasure in telling us - don't blame and don't complain.

And as a captain taught me on my very first day released to line - if in doubt, there's no doubt.